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What will it take to make the Fovean naysayers to S.U.

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Let's not forget that the current crop of CCDs deliver 1/3 - data and 2/3 - error correction (a pretty good one though). Just simple arithmetics.

A full frame Foveon will be realy cool. I only hope it will not end in a Diana camera. I'd love to see your posts then...

Valeriu Campan
http://www.athanor.com.au
Ken Phillips said:
DMillier said:
The foveon uses 3*3.5 million data samples, true. BUT,they are not
all on separate areas of the image. Every point on the surface has
3 stacked light sensors all occurpying the same spot. These
triplets don't collect 3 pixels worth of data (in the sense that we
conventionally describe a pixel) rather, they are used to generate
a single, more accurate pixel).

The bigger bayer sensors do collect more data points, it's just
that do not form the image directly. Instead the individual
filtered monochrome samples are used as the input to an algorithm
that creates the final full colour pixels.

The foveon method clearly has an advantage pixel for pixel but not
for the reason you suggest.
Jimmy Chen said:
Ken Phillips said:
I don't really care how great a 6 megapixel foveon
sensor can be, all I know is we only have a 3 megapixel camera to
deal with.
Click to expand...
What kind of car would you rather buy today? A large lliter engine,
or a smaller engine with a turbo? Almost the same here ... A more
pixel count Bayer that catches 1/3 the data, or a smaller pixel
count X3 that catches 3x the data? Dont forget, 6mp Bayer only have
6mpx12 bits worth of real data. The 3.5mp X3 has 3x3.5mpx12 bits or
10.5mpx12 bits worth of data.

Larger do not always translate to better.
Ken Phillips said:
It's priced in the range of the D60/S2/D100, so it must be compared
with those cameras.
Click to expand...
And I believe they will be, as many of us already have in our own
way. We will just have to wait until Oct for Phil's review to see
the real results from a controlled environment.

-
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
All kinds of old camera and motion picture bodies, lenses, tripods,
enlargers, mostly gathering dust, because digital is immediate! NO
Canon 1200mm f/5.6.
Click to expand...
 
The707 is a good camera, but it is not a DSLR by any definition I have seen. Nor is the D7i, or the 5700.

Even if it was there is a huge difference between the small Sensor cameras and the large sensor cameras. Look at phils lead story if you need details. The basic consumer sensors can only do so much.

Ed
Jimmy Chen said:
Jimmy Chen said:
Jimmy Chen said:
.....And Sony.
Click to expand...
Cool. When is the Sony DSLR coming out??? (grin)
Click to expand...
--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery
Click to expand...
--
Ed
Canon EOS 3, Sony D700, Canon G1, Canon S330, Minolta D7i
http://www.cbrycelea.com/photos/ Old Pictures
 
L. Kraven said:
Edwaste said:
After the latest set of images posted by Phil, will we hear the end
of the Anti-Fovean camp? If this is what's possible with a 3
megapixel sensor, what can a 6 megapixel do?
Click to expand...
I don't think I want to hear all the criticism suddenly stop. Just
because there is a lot of criticism doesn't mean some of it isn't
unwarranted.
Click to expand...
Virtually ALL the criticism is based on inaccurate understanding of the technology. In that, they are wrong.
L. Kraven said:
I don't think anyone can truthfully say that Foveon's innovation
isn't good, but neither can you say that it suddenly makes all
other (bayer included) technology obsolete.
Click to expand...
I am saying that !!!
L. Kraven said:
And your point would seem silly if I put it in the reverse: If
this is what an 11megapixel bayer-interpolated sensor can do, what
can a 22megapixel bayer-interpolated sensor do?

I think that if you shrunk down a large 6mp or 11mp image to the
same dimensions of the Foveon, you'd end up with a sharper image
and much less noise (because the downsize would act as a
rudimentary denoising filter).
Click to expand...
The exact equivalent of a 6mps sensor is 1.5mps, the equivalent of the 11mps is 2.75, and the equivalent of 14mps bayer is 3.5mps.

HOWEVER; I suggest that even if you downsampled to those numbers ... the X3 would still be superior because of no aliasing/artifacts.

(albeit they might show higher resolution on the charts because bayer "guessing" is right often enough to indicate higher "apparent" sharpness.)
L. Kraven said:
My very untechnical observation of the the Foveon's advantage works
something like this: Assuming that the actual pixel sizes are the
same, a 3mp X3 sensor should resolve the same resolution as a 3mp
bayer interpolated sensor, BUT, get 3x as much color data. Now, to
our eyes, that color data could translate into sharpness (simply
because, between pixels, there can be a greater amount of contrast,
and contrast is how we visually determine sharpness), but the truth
is that actual resolution should be the same, lens, etc. being
equal.

The problem is, Sigma lenses are not Nikon or Canon or Zeiss
lenses, they're Sigma lenses. So that's one legitimate negative.
Click to expand...
In some cases Sigma lenses test better than Nikon/Canon. And there is no reason why Sigma "cannot" make lenses just as good. It is simply a matter of cost/quality control. Sigma lenses can cost as must as 1/3 an equivalent Nikon/Canon. I suggest that in most cases, you would never see a difference.

But I agree it is a negative from the standpoint of someone already haveing Nikon/Canon glass. But ya know that can be said for almost any camera, IF you have "different" lenses.

For someone that has no current glass, it makes no difference what-so-ever; assuming Sigma intends to stay in the digital camera business and continue to produce new/better products -- Sigma could some day be just as prominent as any other.
L. Kraven said:
The other problem is you're already stretching the 3mp Foveon
sensor which isn't on the market yet to the "futureware" 6mp Foveon
sensor which who knows when will be available.

Foveon is behind in the ballgame if they want to compete with the
10+mp crowd, and my gut feeling is that while the 3mp X3 sensor may
be the equal or slight superior of an S2 or D60 image, the image
will be noisier based on what I've seen.
Click to expand...
A valid "question". We must wait for either a production camera ... or future improvements ... the first "bayers" had much WORSE problems.
L. Kraven said:
No one is knocking the technology, but I really hope this launches
it and they start moving on it right away, else, they'll go the way
of the betamax and Orb drive. (The Orb drive, a 2gb drive sounded
GREAT when they announced it and it was competing with only the
100mb Zip drive... but when they delivered it 18 months later, the
2gb Jazz drive was already everywhere... though the Orb was
superior technology.)

I just don't think it's wise to hang your hat on a "6mp X3" when
the 3mp one isn't in anyone's hands yet, and who knows what can and
will happen by the time the 6mp X3 hits the market. Here's hoping
it never does, and they go straight to something like a 12mp X3.
Click to expand...
THERE YA GO !!! ..... ( Now Your TALKIN !)

--
Thanks for reading .... JoePhoto

( Do You Ever STOP to THINK --- and FORGET to START Again ??? )
 
Michael Long said:
We've been debating the wrong chip!!!!
Click to expand...
We must go back to the beginning and do this entire thread over.

(probably be "better" next time anyway ... it was always sucking)

--
Thanks for reading .... JoePhoto

( Do You Ever STOP to THINK --- and FORGET to START Again ??? )
 
This is more fun than playing whack-a-mole!
JoePhoto said:
The exact equivalent of a 6mps sensor is 1.5mps, the equivalent of
the 11mps is 2.75, and the equivalent of 14mps bayer is 3.5mps.
Click to expand...
The accuracy of a bayer-interpolation algorithm is best expressed as a standard probability curve. You can best-case bayer, and you can worst-case it (as MC has shown with his red/black chart). For an average scene, it works very well.

As such, your numbers are wrong at best. At worst...

BTW, the majority of scenes are average (that's why it's called that). If they weren't, in-camera metering would not be possible. Our eyes also perceive images in certain ways. If those facts were not true none of the current digital cameras would work at all.
JoePhoto said:
HOWEVER; I suggest that even if you downsampled to those numbers
... the X3 would still be superior because of no aliasing/artifacts.
Click to expand...
Another gross oversimplification. It's possible on the Foveon chip for an edge detail to land exactly on a single pixel w/o spilling over to another. It is not, however, probable. You would then, for example, have the same gray "aliased" pixel between a black area and a white one as you would a bayer-sensor. This is especially obvious on diagonals.

Alias effects are an unavoidable consequence of trying to overlay real-world data onto a fixed grid. ALL sensors (bayer and foveon) will show those effects.

If I have to, I can show you many, many aliased edge examples from the foveon "boxer" photo.
JoePhoto said:
(albeit they might show higher resolution on the charts because
bayer "guessing" is right often enough to indicate higher
"apparent" sharpness.)
Click to expand...
If it's apparent to you then it's apparent to me. See above.

Again. Foveon is cool. I'd like to see a Canon 1Dsx 24MP Foveon camera. But that doesn't change the fact that, in your enthusiasm to promote a camera that's not even shipping, you're spreading inaccurate information.
 
Thank you, online spell checkers.

Like I said, I was away from my computer for a while, I forgot the correct spelling.
 
Phil's latest images demonstrates that the technology has a lot of potential, but until it hits the stores, its only about two steps abvove vaporware. The proof of the technology and this manufacturer is when it becomes economically viable to bring to market. I have to wonder what is causing them to take so long.

--
JimKa
 
Michael Long said:
Michael Long said:
The exact equivalent of a 6mps sensor is 1.5mps, the equivalent of
the 11mps is 2.75, and the equivalent of 14mps bayer is 3.5mps.
Click to expand...
The accuracy of a bayer-interpolation algorithm is best expressed
as a standard probability curve. You can best-case bayer, and you
can worst-case it (as MC has shown with his red/black chart). For
an average scene, it works very well.
Click to expand...
Are all your photos only "average" ???

I am of the opinion that most of my photos are above average; (not an opinion shared by all I admit).
Michael Long said:
As such, your numbers are wrong at best. At worst...

BTW, the majority of scenes are average (that's why it's called
that). If they weren't, in-camera metering would not be possible.
Our eyes also perceive images in certain ways. If those facts were
not true none of the current digital cameras would work at all.
Michael Long said:
HOWEVER; I suggest that even if you downsampled to those numbers
... the X3 would still be superior because of no aliasing/artifacts.
Click to expand...
Another gross oversimplification. It's possible on the Foveon chip
for an edge detail to land exactly on a single pixel w/o spilling
over to another. It is not, however, probable. You would then, for
example, have the same gray "aliased" pixel between a black area
and a white one as you would a bayer-sensor. This is especially
obvious on diagonals.
Click to expand...
I suggest that all "edges" fall exactey on one "single" pixel, (or row of pixels).

I suggest that fine details in "hair" falls on "single" pixels.

Or fine detail in clothing, etc.
Michael Long said:
Alias effects are an unavoidable consequence of trying to overlay
real-world data onto a fixed grid. ALL sensors (bayer and foveon)
will show those effects.
Click to expand...
No ... if it impossible to get "aliasing" or "color"-moire, or aritiacting on a X3 type sensor. That is the beauty of the design. (albeit some types of moire are still possible)

This is true at least at its native resolution of 3.54mps. Above that there is interpolation that could reintroduce artifacts ... BUT still, the base-data is much more accurate. With a 6mps bayer ... the 6mps is already interpolated, and even if downsized to 1.5mps ... the artifacts are possible.
Michael Long said:
If I have to, I can show you many, many aliased edge examples from
the foveon "boxer" photo.
Michael Long said:
(albeit they might show higher resolution on the charts because
bayer "guessing" is right often enough to indicate higher
"apparent" sharpness.)
Click to expand...
If it's apparent to you then it's apparent to me. See above.
Click to expand...
If interpolated above 3.54mps .... it is still possible to get higher "apparent" resolution also.
Michael Long said:
Again. Foveon is cool. I'd like to see a Canon 1Dsx 24MP Foveon
camera. But that doesn't change the fact that, in your enthusiasm
to promote a camera that's not even shipping, you're spreading
inaccurate information.
Click to expand...
--
Thanks for reading .... JoePhoto

( Do You Ever STOP to THINK --- and FORGET to START Again ??? )
 
JoePhoto said:
Are all your photos only "average" ???
I am of the opinion that most of my photos are above average; (not
an opinion shared by all I admit).
Click to expand...
That remains to be seen. What also remains to be seen is if you're just trying to be funny, or if there's another problem.

Be that as it may, I was referring to the average color values in a scene.
JoePhoto said:
I suggest that all "edges" fall exactey on one "single" pixel, (or
row of pixels). ... No ... if it impossible to get "aliasing" ... or
aritiacting on a X3 type sensor. That is the beauty of the design.
Click to expand...
From the Foveon boxer shot.



If you'll examine the image above, along the eye, the hairs around the eye, and the diagonal transition area on the right, you'll see that not all edges fall on on single pixel, not all hairs are only a single pixel in width, and that there are many, many cases where colors are "tweened" (aliased) between contrasting color areas.

ALL images reduced to digital pixels will show alias effects. ALL OF THEM. Even the much beloved and ballyhooed Foveon.
 
Michael Long said:
Michael Long said:
Are all your photos only "average" ???
I am of the opinion that most of my photos are above average; (not
an opinion shared by all I admit).
Click to expand...
That remains to be seen. What also remains to be seen is if you're
just trying to be funny, or if there's another problem.

Be that as it may, I was referring to the average color values in a
scene.
Michael Long said:
I suggest that all "edges" fall exactey on one "single" pixel, (or
row of pixels). ... No ... if it impossible to get "aliasing" ... or
aritiacting on a X3 type sensor. That is the beauty of the design.
Click to expand...
From the Foveon boxer shot.



If you'll examine the image above, along the eye, the hairs around
the eye, and the diagonal transition area on the right, you'll see
that not all edges fall on on single pixel, not all hairs are only
a single pixel in width, and that there are many, many cases where
colors are "tweened" (aliased) between contrasting color areas.

ALL images reduced to digital pixels will show alias effects. ALL
OF THEM. Even the much beloved and ballyhooed Foveon.
Click to expand...
I of course share your concern. Both with the edge discoloratoin and especially with the "white" pixels that I see no reason for.

Perhaps this is still and early production "problem" can can be remedied. Remember it is still such a new technology. (I think Foveon admits to the edge problem.)

But I still suggest that these images still are infinitely better than Bayer.

--
Thanks for reading .... JoePhoto

( Do You Ever STOP to THINK --- and FORGET to START Again ??? )
 
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