I have to announce my presence!

jammerbirdi_1 · Apr 24, 2010

Sorry. I am the proud owner of an unused silver M7 that I picked up for $2500 and a brand new silver 50' cron from Bel-Air Camera that I picked for the surprising price of $1695. Loaded up with Portra 400 and I'm ready to transition a part of my photography from Nikon shooting (D3,D2Hs, D200, etc. +GIANT pro zooms) to this incredible Leica world of photography that I’ve admired and dreamed about for so long.

I know talk of price is probably considered crass in this group but I'm as excited about the prices I paid as I am about the stuff itself. Okay, that's not true.

Question I have is this. Stuck in my old Nikon thinking I automatically asked for a B+W filter for the 'cron. Seems a little deep. Did I make my first faux pas? Should I have bought a Leica UV filter?

Anyway, GLAD to be here.

db

Jim Radcliffe · Apr 24, 2010

Welcome to the club!

As for the filter... a purist might tell you that nothing goes between the Leica glass and the subject..... but if it has to be... then it should say Leica.

Me, not being a purist... use whatever you wish.

I had an M8 and had to have the UV cut filters.. that's the only reason I had a filter on the camera.
--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

menos · Apr 24, 2010

Congratulations on the great new little camera ;-)

If you find out, that RF cameras are compatible with you (some people don't), then you will enjoy it to the fullest. It will change the way, you use your SLR as well!

Regarding the filter, I am one of the people, who only uses filters, in the rain or in dirty environments, as cleaning a filter is easier, than a lens.

Other than that, keep the filter off, it's biggest issues is, creating flare and ghosts especially in tricky lighting (night shots with bright light sources in the frame).

The B+W filters are regarded as some of the best to get. I use 010 MRC filters in the rain and wipe them with my T-shirt from time to time.

--
http://www.teknopunk.com
http://www.teknopunk.com/load.meter.shutterspeed.aperture.shoot/

Juha Lindstrm · Apr 24, 2010

Use which ever filter you like. B+W is a highly regarded brand, so those will do just fine. As a matter of fact, following various threads about uv+ir cut filters required for M8, there seems to be many people saying that at least with uv+ir cut filters the B+W ones are of higher quality than Leica ones..

Leica is still most about the lenses, some about bodies and then the rest is more or less just sentimental brand awareness..

Juha

jammerbirdi_1 · Apr 25, 2010

Thank you, everyone, for the feedback and welcome.

I have a question that I hope doesn't ultimately explain how I got a lens for $1695 that I thought was retailing for $1995... but isn't there supposed to be a warranty card in the lens box with new Leica lenses? There wasn't in mine. But it was sold to me as a new lens. They're $1995 pretty much everywhere. Bel Air Camera, while not really a pro shop here in Los Angeles, IS definitely a local institution for decades. Hard to believe my buds over there would sell me a used lens or a returned lens, necessarily (I'm supposing) reduced in price, without telling me that the lens had been previously sold and returned. I WILL ask them about this tomorrow, but I'd like to have a little of that global message board perspective from experienced Leica users.

One other question. The 50mm Summicron is a lens with all the reputation of any lens ever. But that Zeiss f2 Planar ZM looks like it produces some exquisite images. My eye says on par or even better than the Leica in some respects. Other than build quality, which I can see is better with the Leica, optically or in terms of image producing qualities, what recommends the Leica over the Zeiss?

efix · Apr 25, 2010

jammerbirdi_1 said:
One other question. The 50mm Summicron is a lens with all the reputation of any lens ever. But that Zeiss f2 Planar ZM looks like it produces some exquisite images. My eye says on par or even better than the Leica in some respects. Other than build quality, which I can see is better with the Leica, optically or in terms of image producing qualities, what recommends the Leica over the Zeiss?

Supposing you haven't already read this, here you should find all the info you need: http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2009/12/14/zeiss-zm-50-planar-lens-review/
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/02/01/the-leica-50-summicron-lens-review/

jammerbirdi_1 · Apr 25, 2010

I'd been reading those reviews TOO much. My head hurts. And my eyes. lol! Thank you. I actually went into the store with the intention of buying the Zeiss if they had it. I only wanted, due to curiosity, to check on the price and availability of a silver 50 cron. I was surprised that this lens was priced at $1695 when even on this camera stores OWN website it's listed at $1995. As is it priced everywhere else.

I jumped, however, at the chance to own a Leica piece like this for $300 less than all advertised prices that I'd seen. But... you know... that Zeiss is only $781 and, although I wish I wasn't, I'm a bokeh and OOF addict and there is something "caffeinated" as someone put it on Steve's site, about the 'cron's OOF areas.

I love the build quality. I love the SMOOOOTHHHHH focus ring. But, in the end, if I'm going to be pining for another lens that costs $1000 less... well... you know.

But what about this passport warranty thing? Does Leica just use my store receipt as the warranty? I'm just wondering why there wasn't any kind of warranty information in the box? Nothing. Why being probably the biggest issue. Did they sell me a returned item as new? I will ask them today, but I'd like to here from some user/authorities prior to heading over to the camera store. thanks.

Vetteran · Apr 25, 2010

The Summicron is a great lens; you made the right decision.

Use the filter; protect the glass. I've been using B+H, Heliopan, and Leica filters for 25 years on my Leicas. I've never seen any negative effects; literally. All three brands are very good.
--
vettran.zenfolio.com

lensman57 · Apr 25, 2010

jammerbirdi_1 said:
I'd been reading those reviews TOO much. My head hurts. And my eyes. lol! Thank you. I actually went into the store with the intention of buying the Zeiss if they had it. I only wanted, due to curiosity, to check on the price and availability of a silver 50 cron. I was surprised that this lens was priced at $1695 when even on this camera stores OWN website it's listed at $1995. As is it priced everywhere else.

I jumped, however, at the chance to own a Leica piece like this for $300 less than all advertised prices that I'd seen. But... you know... that Zeiss is only $781 and, although I wish I wasn't, I'm a bokeh and OOF addict and there is something "caffeinated" as someone put it on Steve's site, about the 'cron's OOF areas.

I love the build quality. I love the SMOOOOTHHHHH focus ring. But, in the end, if I'm going to be pining for another lens that costs $1000 less... well... you know.

But what about this passport warranty thing? Does Leica just use my store receipt as the warranty? I'm just wondering why there wasn't any kind of warranty information in the box? Nothing. Why being probably the biggest issue. Did they sell me a returned item as new? I will ask them today, but I'd like to here from some user/authorities prior to heading over to the camera store. thanks.

Congratulations and welcome to the club.

Why don't you ask the shop u bought it from to sort out the passport waranty for u?
The lens should also have a test certificate signed by the tech who tested it.

Zeiss image signature is different from the Leica, rest assured the lens if used properly will outresolve all the films that are commercially available so there should be no question of image sharpness. Enjoy the new toy and start saving, the disease spreads qucikly.

jammerbirdi_1 · Apr 27, 2010

jammerbirdi_1 said:
Sorry. I am the proud owner of an unused silver M7 that I picked up for $2500 and a brand new silver 50' cron from Bel-Air Camera that I picked for the surprising price of $1695.

then...

jammerbirdi_1 said:
Thank you, everyone, for the feedback and welcome.

I have a question that I hope doesn't ultimately explain how I got a lens for $1695 that I thought was retailing for $1995... but isn't there supposed to be a warranty card in the lens box with new Leica lenses? There wasn't in mine. But it was sold to me as a new lens. They're $1995 pretty much everywhere. Bel Air Camera, while not really a pro shop here in Los Angeles, IS definitely a local institution for decades. Hard to believe my buds over there would sell me a used lens or a returned lens, necessarily (I'm supposing) reduced in price, without telling me that the lens had been previously sold and returned.

Well it turns out that the new 50mm Summicron I bought at Bel Air Camera in Westwood is actually a USED 50mm Summicron. It had been sold, and owned by someone for a month, then returned earlier this year. It had no warranty card in the box, as I stated above, and there was a very good reason for that, as it turns out. So Naomi, I'm assuming the manager there at Bel Air Camera, called the Leica rep to see if they would issue a warranty for this lens to me.

That still didn't really negate the sting of knowing that Bel Air Camera sold me as new a Leica lens that was used... so while we waited for the Leica rep to call back apologies were made for the mistake, and accepted, they don't know how or why or which one of their employees didn't bother to check when someone was returning a Leica lens as to whether the warranty card was still there. She admitted that would be one of the first things to look for when accepting a return. Anyway, we settled on an additional $100 bucks off the price of the lens to compensate for this pretty creepy error. I don't know what this guy did with this lens for a month. Maybe he took a world cruise. I don't know. That's why I wanted a new lens.

I mentioned the possibility of Leica NOT wanting to cover this lens with a warranty but Naomi was much more positive about the prospect saying "We're a very big store."

Well, Leica called back and what had happened in this guy had sent in the warranty when he bought it, Leica's not going to cover this lens with a passport warranty for ME, and why should they? It's a used lens. I'm not the owner of a new Leica product. THEY don't know where the lens was or what happened to it in the month this guy had it.

So that brought us to the very unpleasant reality which I woke up thinking about this morning only as a possibility. But no longer. Bel Air Camera had let a long term customer happily walk out the front door believing he had bought and paid for a NEW jewel-like Leica lens. When in fact, it was used and not even under a Leica warranty which it will NEVER ever carry.

Folks, if I wanted to buy a used 50 cron I can for less and without paying taxes online. Just had a great offer on one a mint silver one for $1300. But to be perfectly honest, deluded as it seems now, I LIKE(D) that store and I also like to buy locally to keep places like this open. Now I'm thinking... why? Seriously.

Naomi said that the Leica rep told her that this lens is hard to get and that I would be "silly" to give up the lens. I didn't think it was that hard to get. That I would be "silly." Nice touch there.

She also made it clear that she can't lose money on the lens, etc. She offered an additional $50 off and YEAH, I take responsibility for passing on that offer at this point because I know that, with some time and patience, I can and WILL find a 50 cron in mint shape for much less and without paying tax. And without having to swallow my pride in the process.

One other thing that was interesting and not in a good way. While we were waiting for the Leica rep to call back with what was ultimately terrible news, Naomi said that if Leica does get her a new warranty card, and I decided not to keep the lens, she would sell this lens AS A NEW LENS for $1995, which is the going rate for a new one.

I said, REALLY? But it's been bought and used TWICE!

Is it me? Somebody's not "getting" something here in this situation and I'm honestly wondering is it just me?

Here's a shot from my first roll, last with that silver 50 cron. And yeah, it HURT to take that lens of my perfectly matched silver M7. You better believe it hurt.

Calvin Chann · Apr 27, 2010

Your story is sad, but I am not surprised that it happened. It seems to be standard practise for people in North America to order several itens, test them for a while and then return the ones that they then decide that they don't want. What ever happened to doing your homework and taking responsibility for your decisions.

How a store can sell any of these returned items as new, I could never understand, but I guess they do. Why the store agrees to the return of a perfectly good item is also beyond me. Perhaps they are scared that the customer will not buy anything, but in the long term, I believe that this whole way of doing things is detrimental to business in general. At the end of the day, someone pays for something that they believe is new, and isn't. Who knows how many people have tried it beforehand and how many times it has been shipped.
--

I don't mean to offend, but if you are offended, then either I've overdone it, or, maybe you're too sensitive.

lensman57 · Apr 27, 2010

Calvin Chann said:
Your story is sad, but I am not surprised that it happened. It seems to be standard practise for people in North America to order several itens, test them for a while and then return the ones that they then decide that they don't want. What ever happened to doing your homework and taking responsibility for your decisions.

How a store can sell any of these returned items as new, I could never understand, but I guess they do. Why the store agrees to the return of a perfectly good item is also beyond me. Perhaps they are scared that the customer will not buy anything, but in the long term, I believe that this whole way of doing things is detrimental to business in general. At the end of the day, someone pays for something that they believe is new, and isn't. Who knows how many people have tried it beforehand and how many times it has been shipped.
--

I don't mean to offend, but if you are offended, then either I've overdone it, or, maybe you're too sensitive.

The point you make is very true. Here in the UK we don't get away with this and I as far as I know not many shops allow the items to be returned unless they are not fit for purpose which in normal language mean knackered.
AS New in the shop language means second hand but very little use.

jammerbirdi_1 · Apr 27, 2010

At this point it's almost unhealthy for me to keep thinking about this. I went to Samys and talked to Tibor, their Leica salesman, probably about 80 years young, and he said WHY would you ever give up the passport warranty. You drop it, etc. Most people here probably know all this. I didn't really know that much about a Leica passport warranty vs. any other warranty.

But why wouldn't Bel Air Camera explain something like that TO someone buying a new lens that carries that kind of a warranty? Anyway. So there's that.

He also said that's why Samys doesn't take merchandise back. If under certain situations they do take back unregistered (warranty card not filled out or sent in) , they sell as an open box item WITH a 10% discount and with the full registration privileges of a new owner. I don't like their no-returns policy but now I think I might look differently upon it.

Bel Air Camera's return policy is or, as I should say, as has been told to me by them, is 14 days. But the person who bought THIS 50 cron had it a full month. I'm left to wonder why was he permitted to return the lens well after 14 days and without a warranty card. As someone alluded to above, is he a big buyer who they bend over backwards for?

Tibor also told me exactly what I should have expected from Bel Air in terms of price given the lens' history and no warranty of any kind offered by Leica. It was less than I was looking to get out of there for.

Going to post a review of the development and scan job they did on my roll of Portra when I can find the appropriate forum for that. What a day.

menos · Apr 27, 2010

You know what? This story sounds unpleasant, but seems the norm in times.

I would just give the lens back, get my money and get another lens.

Don't be mad on the shop though. Keep your and the shop personnel's face and get out of this clean.

Last weekend, I passed a great deal on a second hand 50 Summarit-M f2.5 for half the new price.
I could kick myself, that I did!

I have already a few 50mm lenses, the 50 Lux ASPH as well, but this little f2.5 gem really is tempting!

It is tiny!
It has a focus tab!
It focusses smoother and easier than my (and anybody else's) 50 Lux ASPH.

It has plenty of speed at any time except in the night with a M8 (so still great with pushed TX400 @ ISO3200).

Get one of these used and safe a lot of money!

I would not buy it new though, as this is one of the lenses, that almost certainly will not grow value, when paying for new.

The 35 Summarit-M f2.5 looks as tempting as well and I really want to get this pair as a low weight, small bulk package.

God luck with whatever you might end up with.

And for the record - the 50 Cron (if not damaged) is as good used or new a lens. You are "only" talking about money. So if you end up with keeping it - don't put the sour taste stamp on it - it is a great lens!

--
http://www.teknopunk.com
http://www.teknopunk.com/load.meter.shutterspeed.aperture.shoot/

jammerbirdi_1 · Apr 27, 2010

thank you, menos. tomorrow's another day.

lensman57 · Apr 28, 2010

jammerbirdi_1 said:
At this point it's almost unhealthy for me to keep thinking about this. I went to Samys and talked to Tibor, their Leica salesman, probably about 80 years young, and he said WHY would you ever give up the passport warranty. You drop it, etc. Most people here probably know all this. I didn't really know that much about a Leica passport warranty vs. any other warranty.

But why wouldn't Bel Air Camera explain something like that TO someone buying a new lens that carries that kind of a warranty? Anyway. So there's that.

He also said that's why Samys doesn't take merchandise back. If under certain situations they do take back unregistered (warranty card not filled out or sent in) , they sell as an open box item WITH a 10% discount and with the full registration privileges of a new owner. I don't like their no-returns policy but now I think I might look differently upon it.

Bel Air Camera's return policy is or, as I should say, as has been told to me by them, is 14 days. But the person who bought THIS 50 cron had it a full month. I'm left to wonder why was he permitted to return the lens well after 14 days and without a warranty card. As someone alluded to above, is he a big buyer who they bend over backwards for?

Tibor also told me exactly what I should have expected from Bel Air in terms of price given the lens' history and no warranty of any kind offered by Leica. It was less than I was looking to get out of there for.

Going to post a review of the development and scan job they did on my roll of Portra when I can find the appropriate forum for that. What a day.

My firend please do not allow this experience to put you off photography. We all have our own story to tell. If you can get your money back then all the better, oterwise see if you can get some money back from them. Leica have as yet to make a bad lens, some sort of manufacturing deffect not witthstanding of course. Leica's Summarit range is as good as the Summicrons if you do not expect 100% open aperture performance and the use of some cheaper materials for manufaturing so your choices are quite large. Just learn from the bad experience, learn from it and enjoy your camera and lens. As I said before even a 1950s design Leica lens can push the modern films to the limit so there shouldn't be any performance issues.

Calvin Chann · Apr 28, 2010

Well, you have gained something from the whole experience. You have learnt that Bel Air Camera should be avoided and that you should always look for the guarantee card.

And you have shared it with us so that we now all know. With the internet the way it is now, it doesn't take long for a bad story to get around.
--

I don't mean to offend, but if you are offended, then either I've overdone it, or, maybe you're too sensitive.

jammerbirdi_1 · Apr 28, 2010

Thank you, lensman57 and Calvin and everyone else in the thread for your comments.

I will learn and certainly won't be discouraged from Leica rangefinder photography, film photography, Leica bodies and certainly not Leica glass. This is a lifelong dream I'm pursuing now.

Sitting behind me, literally and metaphorically, is a D70, D2Hs, 2 beloved D80s, a D200, and the mighty and beloved D3. Lenses? What's LEFT is my 24-70 2.8 Nikkor, 70-200 VR Nikkor, the 85 1.4 and much loved 50 1.4 Nikkors. How many Nikon lenses I've owned to get to that refined line-up of four lenses is embarrassing to even put into writing.

How much of my remaining Nikon gear will have to go in order to fund my rangefinder photography is something I haven't decided yet. I had an opportunity to buy an M9 yesterday. That would have just about put me in the street and I would have to liquidate all of my Nikon gear, every last piece, in order to get just an M9 and a good piece of Leica glass. Can't do that. Plus, I would also have to get rid of the gorgeous silver M7 I just bought. I'm the first person to have ever even put a lens on that body. I love that camera and I haven't even begun to get to know it yet.

Just briefly, and I don't do message board postings briefly, sorry. But so many of my lens purchases down through the years have been totally about trying to recreate as best as I could the single, prime normal or slightly wide, tack sharp ultra fast lens experience, with great bokeh and attempts at manual focus, that make up all the classic pleasures of rangefinder photography. I bid and lost many times trying to acquire the legendary Noct-Nikkor on Ebay. It was torture. I did get great results sometimes but one thing that I'm left with after years of very good sports photography and street photography is that EYE hate autofocus. I've had the best autofocus cameras in the world and lenses and it's not that I couldn't use them, I just have grown to hate what autofocus does to the photographic experience. I wish Nikon at least put a split screen in their cameras and tightened up the focus rings on their lenses. But that's never going to happen so here I am.

So anyway. I've ordered a Zeiss Planar 50 f2 ZM which is a lens that I can see produces all of the IQ that I'm after. I'm going to save my money for a silver ASPH 50 'lux. I may have to drop two Nikon pro zooms to get that lens, and until that day comes I'll just go ahead and manage somehow with this great piece of Zeiss glass.

Also behind me now permanently is Bel Air Camera. After sleeping on this all, the truth is, I don't believe their story. I don't believe they didn't know the lens carried no passport warranty. Why would they be selling a brand new Leica 50 'cron for $300 less than is advertised on THEIR OWN website and everyone else's? My belief is that they knew everything about this lens. The fact that they let it happen. The fact that they were stubborn and willing to offer only a $50 less reduction in the price versus had Leica actually issued another passport warranty, that they let me walk out of their store after the thousands upon thousands of dollars I've spent there over the years, tells me everything I need to know. I would have NEVER let a customer like me walk out the door unhappy. Yes, I could have gotten this 50 cron for a great price with no passport warranty. But I would have been thinking like THEM. Scrambling after something I want without giving any thought as to the principle of how the deal went down. I would have had to have held my nose and dealt with people who I believe had behaved like scoundrels. I won't do that or support them any more.

And I'm not done talking about it but I AM done talking about it HERE. From now it's just going to be about the photography. I promise.

lensman57 · Apr 28, 2010

jammerbirdi_1 said:
Thank you, lensman57 and Calvin and everyone else in the thread for your comments.

I will learn and certainly won't be discouraged from Leica rangefinder photography, film photography, Leica bodies and certainly not Leica glass. This is a lifelong dream I'm pursuing now.

Sitting behind me, literally and metaphorically, is a D70, D2Hs, 2 beloved D80s, a D200, and the mighty and beloved D3. Lenses? What's LEFT is my 24-70 2.8 Nikkor, 70-200 VR Nikkor, the 85 1.4 and much loved 50 1.4 Nikkors. How many Nikon lenses I've owned to get to that refined line-up of four lenses is embarrassing to even put into writing.

How much of my remaining Nikon gear will have to go in order to fund my rangefinder photography is something I haven't decided yet. I had an opportunity to buy an M9 yesterday. That would have just about put me in the street and I would have to liquidate all of my Nikon gear, every last piece, in order to get just an M9 and a good piece of Leica glass. Can't do that. Plus, I would also have to get rid of the gorgeous silver M7 I just bought. I'm the first person to have ever even put a lens on that body. I love that camera and I haven't even begun to get to know it yet.

Just briefly, and I don't do message board postings briefly, sorry. But so many of my lens purchases down through the years have been totally about trying to recreate as best as I could the single, prime normal or slightly wide, tack sharp ultra fast lens experience, with great bokeh and attempts at manual focus, that make up all the classic pleasures of rangefinder photography. I bid and lost many times trying to acquire the legendary Noct-Nikkor on Ebay. It was torture. I did get great results sometimes but one thing that I'm left with after years of very good sports photography and street photography is that EYE hate autofocus. I've had the best autofocus cameras in the world and lenses and it's not that I couldn't use them, I just have grown to hate what autofocus does to the photographic experience. I wish Nikon at least put a split screen in their cameras and tightened up the focus rings on their lenses. But that's never going to happen so here I am.

So anyway. I've ordered a Zeiss Planar 50 f2 ZM which is a lens that I can see produces all of the IQ that I'm after. I'm going to save my money for a silver ASPH 50 'lux. I may have to drop two Nikon pro zooms to get that lens, and until that day comes I'll just go ahead and manage somehow with this great piece of Zeiss glass.

Also behind me now permanently is Bel Air Camera. After sleeping on this all, the truth is, I don't believe their story. I don't believe they didn't know the lens carried no passport warranty. Why would they be selling a brand new Leica 50 'cron for $300 less than is advertised on THEIR OWN website and everyone else's? My belief is that they knew everything about this lens. The fact that they let it happen. The fact that they were stubborn and willing to offer only a $50 less reduction in the price versus had Leica actually issued another passport warranty, that they let me walk out of their store after the thousands upon thousands of dollars I've spent there over the years, tells me everything I need to know. I would have NEVER let a customer like me walk out the door unhappy. Yes, I could have gotten this 50 cron for a great price with no passport warranty. But I would have been thinking like THEM. Scrambling after something I want without giving any thought as to the principle of how the deal went down. I would have had to have held my nose and dealt with people who I believe had behaved like scoundrels. I won't do that or support them any more.

And I'm not done talking about it but I AM done talking about it HERE. From now it's just going to be about the photography. I promise.

I am glad you are still with us. Your choice of 50mm ZEISS is also excellent but with a different image signature to the Leica particularly for colour photography. If you r going to get another Leica lens I think that you should put the 35mm f2 summicron asph on your list as well as the ZEISS 35mm f2. I don't see the point of having two 50mm lenses in your collection. Good luck and enjoy the camera.

robogobo · Apr 29, 2010

I think you shouldn't worry about the warranty. You got a very good lens for $400 cheaper, and if you don't like the situation, you could get your money back and get a new one with a warranty. Warranties cover very few problems anyway.

Just go shoot, man.

I have to announce my presence!

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