I'm thinking of buying a GXR ...

I am a not so recent GRD convert. I love the camera - period. So much so that I am actually thinking of, wait for it, selling my pro DSLR kit - which is getting very little use - and putting money into an interesting alternative or two. While I do love fixed 28mm, there are times that some optical reach would be nice.

I was waiting for Tom to jump first (we all know he eventually will), but in the mean time I'm keen for some advice. Maybe I should test the waters with a GX ? My fear is that with the GRD III my sole Ricoh investment, I'm in danger of being disappointed with a GX (assuming the GRD as the flagship camera).

Any thoughts ?

well thats what I did.

I sold some of my Nikon gear and bought the GXR with 50mm module.

As I don't have it yet, I can't report yet, but if all goes well, and Ricoh also releases the 100/1.8 module that was shown as a rendering on dcwatch, I may never need that D700 again...It currently is glued to a 105/2 DC and if that niche goes away, who knows.

--
http://photos.berny.at

FD_Paul said:

I am a not so recent GRD convert. I love the camera - period. So much so that I am actually thinking of, wait for it, selling my pro DSLR kit - which is getting very little use - and putting money into an interesting alternative or two. While I do love fixed 28mm, there are times that some optical reach would be nice.

I was waiting for Tom to jump first (we all know he eventually will), but in the mean time I'm keen for some advice. Maybe I should test the waters with a GX ? My fear is that with the GRD III my sole Ricoh investment, I'm in danger of being disappointed with a GX (assuming the GRD as the flagship camera).

Any thoughts ?

Click to expand...

Well the GX is a great camera and will serve well but after a GRDIII it will seem dated. Against the original GRD it holds its own and gives that little bit of zoom as a side benefit but the GRD is just that bit better all round starting at the lens end.

The analogy that the GX was the swiss army knife and the GRD the razor was not a bad one.

However the GXR (and I don't have one to be any expert) is a better camera in concept to the GX in every way excepting size and price. It will make the GX as 'dated' as the GRDIII does also. So I think if what the GXR offers lights your fire then you could not go wrong and you will have many years of good use out of it.

However I have a terrible confession. I was not going to mention it as I did not want to start this camera versus that camera wars. However I have been sprouting a bit about the Samsung TL500 and really I wanted to see it before I would even consider a GXR. I rambled on about the GXR not being belt-carryable.

However I bought a Samsung NX10 a couple of days ago with the 30mm f2.0 lens. Not belt carryable of course but at a price where I can buy this camera and a TL500 and have a bit of change left over compared to just buying a GXR A12.

Why did I do it? Well I have always respected Samsung better quality end cameras. I have not seen a GXR in a dealer's showcase yet and then the NX10 popped up in town and there was a price reduction right up front.

My idea was to by a Canon 550D body to supplement my dslr fleet with a small camera that is up to date whilst I wait for Canon to put flip lcds on their higher end dslr cameras. But the 550D body was a fair bit more than the special offered with kit lens and I did not need the kit lens (stupid? - you bet it was a stupid deal). Anyway I compared the 550D and kit lens to the NX10 with rather nice 30mm and the NX10 was 2/3 of the discounted price and felt better in hand and looked great. Yells quality except for the top of the mode dial which is designed for Braille users by having raised icons - if only my finger tips were that sensitive (smile). The dial feels solid enough and I have not doubts that it will work well but it is the only plastic-looking part on it.

Have only had it three days yet and already I think it is one of my better buys.

Sneider Kreuznach seem to have a few lenses on the drawing boards for this camera - I will have a 85mm f1.8 when it arrives ... I don't think the compact EVIL style camera call for large zooms.

Oh and the NX10 has quite good handling I have mastered it well already - a few neat tricks to make it easier - a bit on the scene-mode twee side for me but it is good enough. Maybe it does not have the depth of customisation that Ricoh cameras now have but it is easy and intuitive with what it has got. You can swap the dof preview button to instant custom white balance set and it is nice the way you can press ok then use the wheel to expand or contract the focus area and the arrow button to move the focus point around. Ricoh does this (and better) with a couple of button presses but the Samsung way is nice nonetheless. And the nice instant EV on the Ricoh? Samsung - press the EV button and move the wheel at the same time - almost as good. It also comes with an evf - not a hideously expensive add-on. Makes it always a little larger body-wise but the evf does work well. The auto focus is quick and reliable but the thing that really blows me away is the ease by which the lens ring can be used to give very fast and accurate manual focus.

Samsung are going to sell heaps of these cameras - the price point is right and the quality seems good. I guess people will stand back for a while until they figure out that Samsung can make other things besides mobile phones and earthmoving equipment.

Sorry I am not speaking against the GXR - just giving a first impression on the NX10.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...

Paul, you will not be sorry.

Tom, I'm not surprised to hear of your purchase, saw these advertised recently and I will definitely check one out myself. I'm particularly interested in seeing the quality of the EVF.

However the sealed modules of the GXR still make better sense to me for a travel camera.
Look forward to any impressions you might post here ;-)

regards.......Paul

Aub08 said:

Tom, I'm not surprised to hear of your purchase, saw these advertised recently and I will definitely check one out myself. I'm particularly interested in seeing the quality of the EVF.

However the sealed modules of the GXR still make better sense to me for a travel camera.
Look forward to any impressions you might post here ;-)

regards.......Paul

Click to expand...

Paul

Yes I am a bit surprised myself but on feeling the NX10 my instincts said 'great camera' - not very keen on the lollypop slow stabilised zoom on offer but the more expensive 30mm f2.0 is a great lens and worth the extra dollar or so.

Consequently the 30mm is unlikely to come off the camera unless and until Samsung or Sneider Kreusnach (must now learn how to spell this) come up with some nice desirable lenses as seem to be predicted by some. Therefore dust issues may not be a problem for a while. I have dslr's with no dust removable gear and a host of primes and therefore they get changed continuously and the dust issue has only been an issue on one very famous occasion. The NX10 has a dust shake-off function.

The evf is not bad but I have not yet had time to test it properly - you don't seem to be able to switch off the lcd and it relies on an eye detection switch which could be a nuisance - nobody want to resort to taping over the switch to kill the lcd.

My buying of the NX10 was strangely like my desire for the GRD and for similar reasons - I instinctively thought 'great camera'. The NX is not nearly as refined as the GXR but the price difference makes it almost worth a punt - not much difference to a 'module' for the GXR.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...

.... tough to maintain sense of usefulness as product lines evolve and expand. Discussions here bringing APS-C sensors in make it difficult (possibly only for me) to sort out valid and appropriate comparisons. I have never been able to make sense from GXR-S10 vs GX200 given Ricoh pricing. But then, just be patient and look at it now .... down $200.-$300. yet still over $200. more than final GX200 cost.

GXR-A12 is a notable new offering, costly, but APS-C sensor takes it into a different realm. Now NX-10 looms, although in fairness, DP1_2 have been discussed often.

Now the split(s) may need to consider major sensor size categories since their images seem difficult to compare fairly and objectively. I am not at the techno level of many here, but regularly feel confused and frustrated dealing with virtually apples and oranges issues. Perhaps some level of 'subset' Ricoh Forum as GXR evolves. I find it sometimes interesting, but usually irritating to go back and forth from A12 to S10 image set posts trying to gain some personal benefit and knowledge.
OK .... dumped my bucket... for now.

Tom B

kanzlr said:

and Ricoh also releases the 100/1.8 module that was shown as a rendering on dcwatch

Click to expand...

I presume you are referring to this page
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20100127_343348.html

I can't believe I haven't seen that before, is there a page somewhere that collects up all the various GXR concepts that have been thrown around.

Also does anyone know of a translation of that page or an article explaining what the renderings are about and where they came from?

--
See my photos at http://www.tolomea.com

The Ricoh GXR + A12 (50 mm macro) is interesting. Some photos here:
http://ricoh-gxr.blogspot.com/

Best regards.
--
My Ricoh GXR samples:
http://ricoh-gxr.blogspot.com/

... this is where it starts to get tricky for me:

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/343/348/html/15.jpg.html

If I'm going to have to start carting around lenses approaching this size, then I may as well keep my DSLR.

I love the GRD III because it produces incredible images, within a beautifully designed form factor. The GXR with some of these potential lenses is starting to look like a compromise to me - and maybe that's just the way it has to be (at least for the moment).

To that end, going to all of the expense of buying a GXR simply to own one module (in my case, probably a long-ish zoom, to complement my GRDIII) seems, well, pointless.

Something struck me in Sean Reid's article ( http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/ricoh-grx.shtml ) towards the bottom, and that was this uneasy lack of definition of what this camera actually is. It is a novel in so many ways, and yet a compromise in others.

More thought required...

FD_Paul said:

I was waiting for Tom to jump first (we all know he eventually will), but in the mean time I'm keen for some advice. Maybe I should test the waters with a GX ?

Click to expand...

If yu want some optical reach and like the Ricoh UI and built then looking for a used GX100 or GX200 might be a better choice than spending all the money on the GXR with S10 module which is really no better then either of the cheaper and smaller GX cameras it replaces.

FD_Paul said:

Any thoughts ?

Click to expand...

If you are thinking to replace your dSLR with a more compact camera, at the moment the m4/3 system is the only real alternative. As much as I would like to say it is the GXR, the m4/3 system is simply more flexible and also cost a lot less.

I don't want to say the GXR is not a great concept but the current price and very limited modules availabl for it means it is only good if you specifically want a small APS sensor wth a 50mm macro lens attached to it and in the future the option to add different modules on it without replacing the back.

The modular concept is fantastic but only if the modules would be cheaper than simply buying a separate camera with lens, which does the same job. Ricoh also needs better and more interesting modules and a module with interchangeable lenses, there is simply no way around this.

Where the m4/3 has the advantage so far over all APS sensor equiped compact cameras is the speed and responsiveness of the cameras which is much better. Another thing is the availbility of adapter modules for every single lens mount and the opitions to mount all kinds of lenses on it. Sure, they are MF only but so is the A12 module if you want to use it for macro or any action or street photography.

--
http://ricoh-gr-diary.blogspot.com/
http://ricohgrdiary.wordpress.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cristiansorega

FD_Paul said:

... this is where it starts to get tricky for me:

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/343/348/html/15.jpg.html

If I'm going to have to start carting around lenses approaching this size, then I may as well keep my DSLR.

Click to expand...

This is true for any APS-C, or even m4/3 camera.

When you want fast glass, the lenses get bigger and bigger with the focal length.

Pancakes and collapsing designs can offset this a little at the normal end, but from mid-tele onwards, it's big big big.

And once you start putting big lenses on compact bodies, you have to ask yourself "what does this actually give me".

I'm not sure a GXR A12 combination is a camera you can just buy and expect to like.

I think you need to be searching for something and discover it in the GXR A12. You then need to research as honestly and as impartially as you can to understand any compromises it brings and whether it can work for you, or if they are deal breakers. This is true of any of the large sensor compacts but is especially true of the GXR A12 combination due to fact it has an expensive macro as it's prime lens.

You need to understand the limitations, and be willing to work at overcoming them. I was fortunate in that had already experienced the problems of awkward AF with high quality macros and had already developed a range of techniques to work around them. And also realised that my photography had improved as a result of having to work harder for the images.

I was also fortunate in that I got my GXR at a reduced price from somebody who found the compromises were a deal breaker for them. So it allowed me to take on the A12 challenge at a reduced cost. I reasoned that as I already got it at 2nd hand price, I would lose less if I found I couldn't work with it and decided to sell it on. As it turned out, I'm really enjoying it and have no intention of selling it on. I just can't wait for the A12 28mm.

-Najinsky

FD_Paul said:

... this is where it starts to get tricky for me:

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/343/348/html/15.jpg.html

If I'm going to have to start carting around lenses approaching this size, then I may as well keep my DSLR.

I love the GRD III because it produces incredible images, within a beautifully designed form factor. The GXR with some of these potential lenses is starting to look like a compromise to me - and maybe that's just the way it has to be (at least for the moment).

To that end, going to all of the expense of buying a GXR simply to own one module (in my case, probably a long-ish zoom, to complement my GRDIII) seems, well, pointless.

Something struck me in Sean Reid's article ( http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/ricoh-grx.shtml ) towards the bottom, and that was this uneasy lack of definition of what this camera actually is. It is a novel in so many ways, and yet a compromise in others.

More thought required...

Click to expand...

Paul, if that is all you want, if you are not shooting raw of if you are you should look for a GX 1 or 2 and that should satisfy the S10 need for now. If you want to buy into the system, and if that 100 is real it is by far too big, there will be many lenses for those with patience.

Good luck

I would certainly be tempted into the GXR format if there was a lens unit which would complement the GRD and GX100. As far as I'm concerned, I have no special interest in the units available at present - nor especially the announced 28mm prime - since in many ways FR is too similar to these smaller, very much carry-around cameras. I love the looks of that 100mm unit and have always got the impression that Ricoh's philosophy with the GXR pointed to that of a body which was to be attached to a lens rather than the other way round. I would like a 28-100mm zoom even if it wasn't especially fast, to be taken out and about on special occasions when the extra size and weight were justified by the results. The last DSLR I had was a Pana L1 and OK so that was a bit on the big side and modern DSLRs are smaller and so on but I just don't need all that mirror-slapping (though one's street cred bites the dust if your camera doesn't clunk, as we all know) and not having an optical VF would be the least of my worries, especially if I had to consider remortgaging the house to get one.

Tom

I think that all these dslr cameras are pretty worked out now. They are now classified as cheap and cheap construction to satisfy the bottom end of the market but also and increasingly the better quality cameras are using similar sensor and they can all be classified as pretty-good. Therefore to anyone's own level of ability almost any good-quality-level camera is going to preform similarly for them.

There is no immediate panacea in a new camera that is going to make anyone an instant better photographer. In fact the level of leverage given by increasingly good cameras is a diminishing resource given the own person's skill and expertise.

Therefore better cameras usually have to rely on their firmware offered and the photographer's acquired skills and their willingness to advance their craft and practice to do better.

Simply buying the final and absolute best camera and using it in a basic manner will only increase the number of 'lucky shots' captured and will not make every shot a winner.

Ricoh cameras have such a great interface and their firmware is now so refined that they can either be an unpenatratible jungle or a wonderful forest to explore depending upon your outlook. Some might just wander around the periphery and just look and admire from without - that is their privilege. However my reckoning is that for those that set out to explore then the Ricoh cameras are great teaching cameras and positively encourage the user to try things out. This is their wonder for me and it certainly helped my photographic craft.

So if the best photographic result is wanted it is a combination not only of good lenses, sensors, etc, but also the size that makes the camera always available to capture that moment and also the encouragement to learn just what setup is necessary and also the refined intuition form much practice that makes the button presses squeezed out that gets the camera just right for that capture. The camera and the photographer still requires work together as a team.

Consequently the camera for any of us is some organic mish-mash between technical quality of the tool approach one's own ability and a practised use of the tool that makes the person use it to that same technical quality.

All these forums have people including myself seemingly determined to find a new camera that takes faultless amazing images with every shutter press - I am still looking ... but new cameras don't make a new me as a better photographer.

There are quite a few out there taking amazing images with the GRD and that is a six year old camera now - an eon in digital - but if it was great then those that have mastered it make it great even now.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...

Yes a lens with a body rather than a body with a lens. Interesting concept.

So a bag full of lenses with a body rather than a body with a bag full on lenses.

The whole idea cries out for a bag of lenses each with a body attached ie: a bag of complete cameras each with a consistent interface and I like that concept better.

There is probably too much emphasis on switching modules in and out - you can do it, but I think that this is not really the GXR concept. The GXR concept is a series of individual cameras that all work individually alike. The reason why you can attach modules is not so much that you can switch them in the field but so as you can build more than one camera specifically to your personal purpose and have each one a complete camera.

So instead of a professional bag of "dslr plus lenses" you have a professional bag of "a number of cameras with lenses of differing focal lengths all identically controlled". Therefore switching between one lens or another is no more complicated than switching complete cameras the controls of which are identical and become instantly intuitive by rote.

In this thought process there is no bar to very large lens modules as the small back is simply designed to make the entire unit fit more easily in a photographer's bag and not to make a easily portable unit per se.

However cost might limit our average user to one or two of these 'cameras' but if Ricoh had a wide range of quality lens modules available then the cost of a well set up bag of goodies would not necessarily put off a hardened professional making good money. Note that many professionals use more than one dslr camera body already.

Whether they could be weaned off Nikon or Canon is another thing entirely.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...

will foreman said:

I would certainly be tempted into the GXR format if there was a lens unit which would complement the GRD and GX100. As far as I'm concerned, I have no special interest in the units available at present - nor especially the announced 28mm prime - since in many ways FR is too similar to these smaller, very much carry-around cameras. I love the looks of that 100mm unit and have always got the impression that Ricoh's philosophy with the GXR pointed to that of a body which was to be attached to a lens rather than the other way round. I would like a 28-100mm zoom even if it wasn't especially fast, to be taken out and about on special occasions when the extra size and weight were justified by the results. The last DSLR I had was a Pana L1 and OK so that was a bit on the big side and modern DSLRs are smaller and so on but I just don't need all that mirror-slapping (though one's street cred bites the dust if your camera doesn't clunk, as we all know) and not having an optical VF would be the least of my worries, especially if I had to consider remortgaging the house to get one.

Click to expand...

Will, we are on the same tram - I agree.

--
Tom Caldwell
I am always trying ...