Photoshop

I was simply stating my opinion that if one uses the D30 / D60 and
wants to achieve the best photos possible, PhotoShop gives the
greatest capabilities IMO.
I absolutely agree. One way to look at it is this: If someone is
not serious enough about digital photography to invest in the best
tools, then why even consider a camera like the D30/D60/1D to begin
with?
This is an interesting point, and one in which I happen to agree with. However, there is an assumption being made. That assumption is that Photoshop is the best. In order to come to that conclusion, we have to some how define "best". Just what is "best" anyway? "Best" implies "superior". In order to judge something "superior", we have to evaluate a set of attributes that would lead us to that conclusion. So just what are the attributes of an image editor that we could objectively evaluate to determine what is superior? THAT's where the problem lies.

I love my wife. I happen to think she is one of the most beautiful women in the world. Why do I think that? Because she has attributes that attract me. Ask a man what makes a women of "superior" beauty. He might say blonde hair, blue eyes, tall, shapely, etc. But what if I'm 5' 7" and don't like to date woman taller than me and I prefer red heads? Then we can't agree on the attributes of "superior" beauty. Therefore, we're not going to be able to agree on women of superior beauty.

This is the very issue I have with people who assume that Photoshop is the best image editing tool. You can't say this without siting attributes. Once attributes are listed, then its up to the potential customer to decide whether a particular attribute is important to them or not. Also, in order to be absolutely fair, one would have to evaluate all tools on the market to a deep enough level (in order to uderstand them) to be able to adequately come to a conclusion on various attributes. This is rarely done. Many PS users will say things like, "Can you do ABC with XYZ editor?". But what they don't take into consideration is that other tools have some nifty ways of doing things that PS doesn't do IN THE SAME WAY.

So the analogy of the car and tires below is faulty because it assumes Photoshop is superior with no basis in fact because there is no agreed upon list of attributes that make one product "superior".
That's like buying the best race car you can afford and
then putting cheap tires on it. Other programs like PSP will do
many of the basic things just fine. But sooner or later you'll run
into situations where you need the full power of Photoshop.
Like what? Let's be specific. What have you needed to do that only Photoshop could accomplish? Before you answer, I'll tell you this. I'm a photographer and a digital imaging instructor. I've evaluated and continue to evaluate high and low end tools because I must stay current in order to do justice to my students. I hear this statement about "eventually needing the power of Photoshop" all of the time. But that statement is never quantified, it is just assumed to be true. People who are use to PS look to do things they do in PS in other tools in the exact same or similar way they are used to in PS. But this approach is not fair to those tools because they can reach to goal albeit in a different mannor. The suprerior one is the one that is most intuitive to the individual.
 
Of course, but why would I use LE in lieu of the full program?
I still say, if you want to do photo editing right, the full
Photoshop is the way to go.
Rubbish. If you want to do image editing right, then choose a tool that's intuitive for you and learn it intimately. I've witnessed way too many people make the mistake of assuming the "magic" was in the tool, buy Photoshop, only to become greatly frustrated. The "magic" is not in the tool. The m"magic" is in one's understanding digital imaging principles and one's familiarity with whatever tool they're using. In other words, different people will have different "right" tools. One size never has, does not, and never will fit all.
Yeah, the other programs do OK, but I
find I can do more faster in Photoshop whan any of the other
programs I've tried.
And I would in no way argue with this for you.
Whatever works for you guys, keep it up!
And THAT is the bottom line.
 
Absolutely right. There is indeed a learning curve with PS full but believe me, there is nothing on earth that compares. Be prepared however to become a junkie like the rest of us once you see the magic unfold before your eyes.

Pradeep
If you stick with digital photography, like me, you will eventually
purchase Photoshop after trying all of the other lower cost
programs. I would suggest getting it now and saving time and money
on other programs.

Chris
 
For those who care, the manufacturer's rebate coupon indicates the promotion only applies to residents of the US. It sure would be nice if manufacturers could see fit to extend the numerous promotions to those of us living outside the US.
Do you or anyone else on this site know if the rebates are
applicable outside of the US (Canada in my case)? Amazon's site
simply says that the manufacturer's rebate is in the box which
doesn't help much for those of us living outside the US.

Regards,
Jim
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006ANW9/arizonabaseballt

I've also been using Paint Shop Pro for years and am not
dissatisfied with its capabilities, but I just picked up Photoshop
Elements 2.0 and have been trying to learn it to be closer to the
mainstream. I don't know if this procedure for processing my 1D
RAW files makes sense but this is what I do:

I convert RAW to JPG and use Paint Shop Pro to review and edit for
web posting.

The few that I want to print I convert RAW to TIF and work on them
in Photoshop Elements.
However, Photoshop is the de facto standard for image editing, and
most "tips," reference materials, etc. that you will find out there
refer to Photoshop. Translating this information to the PSP user
interface can be frustrating at times. (I also find the PSP help
file to be lacking in certain areas.) But if cost is a concern, I
still think PSP is the way to go since it covers all the basics and
provides more "power" as one becomes more experienced in image
editing.
If you stick with digital photography, like me, you will eventually
purchase Photoshop after trying all of the other lower cost
programs.
This is simply not true. I've been involved with digital imaging
for 15+ years. I will not now, nor will I ever take anything away
from Photoshop. But to say that one is bound to end up with
Photoshop is an inaccurate statement and one that breeds the kind
of Photoshop only mindset that many have.

There are many alternatives. There are better alternatives.
EVERYTHING depends on the user. To suggest that only Photoshop is
viable to the person who only wants to do relatively simple things
is extremely bad advise. MANY people simply don't want to do more
than simple rotating and cropping. To suggest a $600 program is the
only solution for such a person is ludicrous. MANY have purchased
Photoshop on similar advise only to be TOTALLY overwhelmed. They
are simply not interested enough in digital imaging to invest the
kind of time and energy necessary to become somewhat proficient in
Photoshop. This characterizes the majority of casual digital
photographers. They have no business even considering Photoshop.

But this is not restricted to those who only desire the basics.
There are also many solutions for the advanced amatuer and
professional. But Photoshop does become more advisable for these
people because of its market inertia, NOT because of any serious
capability advantages. If we restrict the discussion to image
editing capability, then many will compete. But Photoshop's
advantage is realized in the books, tapes, CDs, and plug-in support
available to it. The availability of these support materials can be
worth the increased price by themselves. But many codes are more
than capable of holding their own in image editing.

To the original poster. For your stated desires I'd take a hard
look at Microsoft's Picture It! product lineup. They provide the
basics at a reasonable cost and they are very easy to use and you
can quickly get up to speed with them. If you want to use something
that provides for more growth, then look at JASC's Paint Shop Pro,
Ulead's PhotoImpact, Mediachance's Photo Brush, or Adobe's
Photoshop Elements. If you want what I consider to be the best
overall value (power and cost) in photographic image editing in my
opinion, then give Digital Light and Color's Picture Window Pro a
test drive. However, be cautioned. These recommendations come at a
price. You will need to invest more time and energy to become
profficient.

There is absolutely NO reason to spend the big $$ on Photoshop for
what you want to do.
--
D60
20-35
28-135IS
70-200 2.8L
380EX
--
D60
20-35
28-135IS
70-200 2.8L
380EX
 
I suggest to my multimedia students, most of whom survive on Ramen
noodles, that they start with Photoshop Elements. It's a lot
cheaper and many of the commands transfer easily into Photoshop, if
that's what one eventually needs.
If you decide to go the full Photoshop route you might want to
check to see if you (wife, child, etc.) might be eligible for the
educational price. It's exactly the same program and you'll be
eligible for future upgrades (unlike Microsoft's Office For
Students and Teachers.) Academic Superstore will sell to you at
educational prices, though you have to prove eligibility.
 
Absolutely right. There is indeed a learning curve with PS full but
believe me, there is nothing on earth that compares.
This is the kind of factless, rediculous hyperbole that misleads many. "nothing on Earth that compares?". What exactly is it that doesn't compare? How is this defined? How do we measure this? What are the critical components of the measurment? Are they universally agreed upon? Please! Enough with the hype. Let's have a quantitative discussion. What exactly is it that you think Photshop allows you to do that can't be done in another editor?
Be prepared
however to become a junkie like the rest of us once you see the
magic unfold before your eyes.

Pradeep
If you stick with digital photography, like me, you will eventually
purchase Photoshop after trying all of the other lower cost
programs. I would suggest getting it now and saving time and money
on other programs.

Chris
 
I have been using Photoshop 5.0LE for a number of years and found
it to be a very good program. I always thought it was not worth
upgrading to the full photoshop. That is until I purchased
Photoshop 5.5 on ebay, new but for only $135. I tell you,
Photoshop is really the way to go. It may take a while to learn
all the features and it may have more features than you'll ever
use, but its power is truly amazing. I just purchased the
Photoshop 7 upgrade on ebay for $135 as well, so I now have the
full version 7 for only $270!!

At the end of the day, with a camera as advanced as the D60 you
would be shortselling yourself by not using Photoshop.
HOW!!!!! Come on now. What exactly is it? If one doesn't use Photoshop, how will there images be damaged?

To thopse reading this thread, do not make the mistakeof thinking that I'm saying Photoshop is not capable or overestimated. Not at all. It is extremely capable. My issue is with those that think it is the ONLY capable tool out there. That somehow, one is missing out if they don't use it. These claims are routinely made with NO supporting facts. It's been my experience over the past 10+ years that people cannot believe all the things that can be done in Photoshop. They then ASSUME that they cannot be done elsewhere. This is a false assumption.
Ed
I recently purchased the D60 and lens. I have been looking into
programs for image editing and found that the most popular one is
the Adobe Photoshop. All I really want to do right now is crop,
dodge & burn, etc. --- just the basics. Any suggestions? Thanks in
advance. Rich
 
Critter,

You're not alone. Many people attempt to force themselves to think like PS in order to use it. Like I said in another post in this thread, one size does not fit all. Photoshop just isn't written in your "language". That doesn't make it bad or you wrong. Just different. Unfortunately, Corel's Photo Paint 11 is not available as a stand alone product. It doesn't use layers, it uses "objects" and "lenses". It runs probably 90% of PS plugins. It is simply a powerhouse image editor. It's user interface is MUCH more intuitive to me. The nomenclature is much more precise to me. These are very personal things and are different for each person. But in case the blind "Photoshop only" crowd doesn't realize it, people are different.
I have a number of photo editing programs including PS V7 and PSP
V7. I feel that each program has its niche where it excels over
the others.

My biggest gripe with PS (beyond price) is that I find some of the
features non-intuitive to learn. In fact, I feel the same about
most Adobe programs - they use a mindset different from the others.
Maybe not a wrong mindset, just different.

More than once I've sat down determined to learn how to do "xyz" in
Photoshop, only to give up after an hour or two and then do it in
another program after a few minutes. Perhaps it is equally easy if
I could only figure out how.
 
I don't think so. It is NOT magic. It is skill with a specific tool. As your skill improves, you need better tools. If your skill is only so-so, then so-so tools are adequate. Just like anything else. I believe Photoshop is simply the best tool for me. You can fool around with other tools if you like. I'm not happy with them.
Good luck! Malcolm
Of course, but why would I use LE in lieu of the full program?
I still say, if you want to do photo editing right, the full
Photoshop is the way to go.
Rubbish. If you want to do image editing right, then choose a tool
that's intuitive for you and learn it intimately. I've witnessed
way too many people make the mistake of assuming the "magic" was in
the tool, buy Photoshop, only to become greatly frustrated. The
"magic" is not in the tool. The m"magic" is in one's understanding
digital imaging principles and one's familiarity with whatever tool
they're using. In other words, different people will have different
"right" tools. One size never has, does not, and never will fit all.
Yeah, the other programs do OK, but I
find I can do more faster in Photoshop whan any of the other
programs I've tried.
And I would in no way argue with this for you.
Whatever works for you guys, keep it up!
And THAT is the bottom line.
 
Steve, please educate me: what can Photoshop do that PSP cannot?
I'm not sure how to take that question.. It's like asking, "what can a D60 do that an Olympus C3030Z cannot? Both can take pleasing high-resolution images. Suffice it to say that there are lots of things. You can check out the detailed specs for each program if you're serious about learning the differences.

As I said, PSP will do all the "basic" stuff just fine. It also has some "advanced" features of its own, such as being able to "draw" cute clipart of flowers and such on your pictures. If you are loyal to it and it works for you, then that's what you should be using. I'm not on the payroll of either company.

One main difference is Photoshop's ability to use actions (ie, macros). They are an extremely powerful and convenient way to perform complex and repetitive tasks. You can download hundreds of "canned" actions or you can create your own by simply recording keystrokes and mouseclicks.

Overall, the program just has more "horsepower." It provides the most complete set of tools available to do anything you can imagine with regards to image editing. It is the industry standard program, which speaks volumes. Its interface is straightforward and easy to learn, but it hides a huge engine under that simple-looking hood. As the cliche goes, you can learn to use it a day, but it can take years to master.

--
Steve
http://home.att.net/~bishopweb/

The secret to good photography: a camera, a lens, artistic vision, a little skill, some patience and a whole lot of luck
 
This is an interesting point, and one in which I happen to agree
with. However, there is an assumption being made. That assumption
is that Photoshop is the best. In order to come to that conclusion,
we have to some how define "best". Just what is "best" anyway?
"Best" implies "superior". In order to judge something "superior",
we have to evaluate a set of attributes that would lead us to that
conclusion. So just what are the attributes of an image editor that
we could objectively evaluate to determine what is superior? THAT's
where the problem lies.
The point is that photoshop has the horsepower to accomplish just about whatever it is you need with regards to image editing, all in one program. If it isn't part of the basic program, then there are likely actions or plugins available to accomplish the task. However you want to quantify it, there is no question about it being hands down the best in terms of power and flexibility.

I agree with what you've said about different programs having different strengths. You can certainly find individual programs that may do individual things better tnan photoshop does right out of the box. For example, paintshop pro has a better batch file format converter. Photoshop also lacks a simple red eye removal tool like the entry-level photo programs have.

The nice thing about photoshop, however, is that it has the power and flexibility to handle just about anything in one way or another. There is no need to keep several redundant image editing programs on your computer just because one of them does a certain task better than the others. It simply provides the most complete set of tools that are available in one box, all with the same interface. People who have used the program for years are still discovering capabilities that it has. If you were to pick one program to keep and grow with, there is no question about photoshop being "the best."

--
Steve
http://home.att.net/~bishopweb/

The secret to good photography: a camera, a lens, artistic vision, a little skill, some patience and a whole lot of luck
 
I don't think so.
You wrote:
"I still say, if you want to do photo editing right, the full

Photoshop is the way to go." To that statement I said "Rubbish". It's rubbish because it is a generalized, all encompassing, absolute statement. It recognizes no qualifiers, no differences in people, no differences in application. Because of that, I find the statement to be "rubbish".
It is NOT magic. It is skill with a specific tool.
That is exactly correct! That's what I was trying to say. I wrote:

"If you want to do image editing right, then choose a tool that's intuitive for you and learn it intimately." Photoshop is not THE magic. What I meant was that many think that if only they had Photoshop, their images would be better. As if Photoshop had some "magic". Then they discover that PS isn't magic. That they need to work and learn. That's what I meant when I wrote the "magic" is not in the tool, it is in one's familiarity with a tool. I agree 100% with you.
As your skill improves, you need better tools.
First this is debatable. It depends entirely on your applications For many people, cropping, rotating, and basic contrast and brightness adjustments are all they want. I run into them everyday. Their skill at doing those things improves, but they have no desire to do anything more. So why would they need better tools? Secondly, the assumption by many is that Photoshop the the "better" tool. But on what basis is this claim made? I never hear any specifics. People just give their impressions. For people wanting to grow in digital imaging, they need a tool that will allow them to grow. The fact of the matter is that with the likes of Paint Shop Pro, PhotoImpact, Picture Publisher and a few others, they allow for more editing power than most will ever need. The average PS user probably uses somewhere around 20-30% of its capabilities.
If your
skill is only so-so, then so-so tools are adequate. Just like
anything else. I believe Photoshop is simply the best tool for me.
And THAT is what I'm trying to get people to say. I have NO doubt that what you say is true for you. How could I tell you that there is something better for you? But that's exactly what many do by their unqualified statements with regard to PS being the "best".
You can fool around with other tools if you like. I'm not happy
with them.
I don't "fool around" with them. I make money with them. I know my tools. They are great at what they do and they are intuitive to me. I've turned many people on to other options. Not to get them to partake, but to give them enough choices so that they can make informed decisions according to their requirements, not mine or anybody else's.
Good luck! Malcolm
Of course, but why would I use LE in lieu of the full program?
I still say, if you want to do photo editing right, the full
Photoshop is the way to go.
Rubbish. If you want to do image editing right, then choose a tool
that's intuitive for you and learn it intimately. I've witnessed
way too many people make the mistake of assuming the "magic" was in
the tool, buy Photoshop, only to become greatly frustrated. The
"magic" is not in the tool. The m"magic" is in one's understanding
digital imaging principles and one's familiarity with whatever tool
they're using. In other words, different people will have different
"right" tools. One size never has, does not, and never will fit all.
Yeah, the other programs do OK, but I
find I can do more faster in Photoshop whan any of the other
programs I've tried.
And I would in no way argue with this for you.
Whatever works for you guys, keep it up!
And THAT is the bottom line.
 
Hello Mike,

I actually agree with many of your comments. The main difference is in the large user base.

Let's face it, digital photo editing on a high level is difficult. If I have a problem, all I have to do is go in the internet and find someone with a tutorial on how to do this or that in PhotoShop or some action or plug-in.

There is a far large amount of tutorials, actions and plug-ins for Photoshop than any other program and that is Photoshop's real power!

Chris
 
Geez Mike, don't blow your top!

I am just a big fan of Photoshop because of my own experiences with this software. Of course there are other good programs in the market and anybody should get whatever suits his or her own needs best. But given the fact that the entire graphics industry seems to have embraced Photoshop as the standard for image editing, I do not feel that I am giving somebody wrong advice be recommending Photoshop. I am just RECOMMENDING ok!!! If somebody aks for advice, some other person will recommend, that how this forum works.

I ever ceases to amaze me how people can get upset by other people supporting certain brands/software/camera etc. At the end of the day it is people's own responsibility to make decisions.

Ed
I have been using Photoshop 5.0LE for a number of years and found
it to be a very good program. I always thought it was not worth
upgrading to the full photoshop. That is until I purchased
Photoshop 5.5 on ebay, new but for only $135. I tell you,
Photoshop is really the way to go. It may take a while to learn
all the features and it may have more features than you'll ever
use, but its power is truly amazing. I just purchased the
Photoshop 7 upgrade on ebay for $135 as well, so I now have the
full version 7 for only $270!!

At the end of the day, with a camera as advanced as the D60 you
would be shortselling yourself by not using Photoshop.
HOW!!!!! Come on now. What exactly is it? If one doesn't use
Photoshop, how will there images be damaged?

To thopse reading this thread, do not make the mistakeof thinking
that I'm saying Photoshop is not capable or overestimated. Not at
all. It is extremely capable. My issue is with those that think it
is the ONLY capable tool out there. That somehow, one is missing
out if they don't use it. These claims are routinely made with NO
supporting facts. It's been my experience over the past 10+ years
that people cannot believe all the things that can be done in
Photoshop. They then ASSUME that they cannot be done elsewhere.
This is a false assumption.
Ed
I recently purchased the D60 and lens. I have been looking into
programs for image editing and found that the most popular one is
the Adobe Photoshop. All I really want to do right now is crop,
dodge & burn, etc. --- just the basics. Any suggestions? Thanks in
advance. Rich
 
This is an interesting point, and one in which I happen to agree
with. However, there is an assumption being made. That assumption
is that Photoshop is the best. In order to come to that conclusion,
we have to some how define "best". Just what is "best" anyway?
"Best" implies "superior". In order to judge something "superior",
we have to evaluate a set of attributes that would lead us to that
conclusion. So just what are the attributes of an image editor that
we could objectively evaluate to determine what is superior? THAT's
where the problem lies.
The point is that photoshop has the horsepower to accomplish just
about whatever it is you need with regards to image editing, all in
one program. If it isn't part of the basic program, then there are
likely actions or plugins available to accomplish the task.
However you want to quantify it, there is no question about it
being hands down the best in terms of power and flexibility.
Steve,

I beg to differ. It is very much in question. It is not a hands down, slam dunk decision. Have you ever used Corel's Photo Paint 11? If you haven't, then you can't make that statement. I would direct you to an article written by Dan Margoulis of "Professional Photoshop" fame except that I can't remember the url. Anyway, he did an evaluation of Photo Paint. Conclusion, essentially there's nothing you can do in Photoshop that can;t be done in Photo Paint. Now, I know this to be true because I've used Photo Paint for 7 years and have thoroughly evalauted every version of Photoshop since version 4.
The nice thing about photoshop, however, is that it has the power
and flexibility to handle just about anything in one way or
another.
I agree. But don't assume that others can't match this power and flexibility. It's not true in the case of Photo Paint and it's not true in the case of others where the users is never likely to even attempt to use that last 10%. What do I mean by that? The difference between what I categorize as high end and mid end editors is in the degree they allow for fine tuning. For instance. a mid end editor might give you 5 degrees of control for ABC function, where as PS and Photo Paint might give you 8 degrees of control. Not that the typical user would even recognize a difference in the final image, but its still more degrees of control. However, flexibility comes at the price of a steeper learning curve because more options are presented. This needs to be balanced with each individual user's needs and requirements.
There is no need to keep several redundant image editing
programs on your computer just because one of them does a certain
task better than the others.
But you're essentially doing that with plugins. The cost of many plugins exceed the cost of stand alone programs that do one or two things very well. Afterall, that's what a plugin is, a code that does one or two things very well. Yes, it's accessible in the PS interface, but many times their operating principles are WAY different than PS. It's as if you're running an entirely different program, which you are.
It simply provides the most complete
set of tools that are available in one box, all with the same
interface.
To make this statement you have had to evaluate everything on the market. Have you, or are you just assuming? Also, having a complete set of tools is not necessarily an advantage to everybody. Once again, this comes at a price. A plethora of tools and options adds to complexity and confusion. For a person who only wants to do specific things, the "complete" set is not necessary and only adds to resources, overhead, etc. For that person, PS might NOT be the best.

Take Photo Retouch Pro ( http://www.binuscan.com/us/prp/index.html ). Many in the color business are using it as their tool of choice. It is not an all encompassing image editor like PS is, but it is exploiting its niche. It is also more expensive than PS. Now, for the color correction professional, which tool is "better"?
People who have used the program for years are still discovering capabilities that it has.
Once again, don't assume that others aren't doing that exact same thing. I use Picture Window Pro as my main editor. Been using it for 7 years or so. I just discovered capability with the curves tool yesterday that I didn't know existed. Had I known this in the past it could have saved me some time.
If you were to pick one
program to keep and grow with, there is no question about photoshop
being "the best."
I'm sorry, but there is question. I will reiterate, there is nothing that you've mentioned that isn't also true with other tools. NOTHING. There is "the best" for you. There is "the best" for me. But there is simply no absolute "best". That implies an absolute scale and that does not exist. That scale CAN'T exist because it most incorporate people's needs, desires, applications, etc., which are all different.
 
I recently purchased the D60 and lens. I have been looking into
programs for image editing and found that the most popular one is
the Adobe Photoshop. All I really want to do right now is crop,
dodge & burn, etc. --- just the basics. Any suggestions? Thanks in
advance. Rich
You might want to download a trial of PaintShopPro from http://www.jasc.com . It's an excellent full-featured app that's not so expensive and doesn't have the steep learning curve of PS.

Gorham
--
Shooting Digital in Maine!
Please respond only through the forum.
 
Hi, Mike. I have carefully studied your words - in this post and your primary post above. Not only do I agree with you 100%, but am impressed with the clarity of your comments. I am going to cut/paste those words into my own document and refer to them when similar questions are posed to me - as they often are.

Personally, I'm a 'mainstream' person and prefer Photoshop. I'm currently using version 7.0. I also own Elements 2.0 and find myself using it on occasion - but mostly I use it to help friends/relatives who use Elements and call me for advice. It's nice to be helping them while looking at the same screens they are seeing.

I sincerely hope any of our Newbees take time and trouble to read your words. Your advice will serve them well. Best to you...
I've also been using Paint Shop Pro for years and am not
dissatisfied with its capabilities, but I just picked up Photoshop
Elements 2.0 and have been trying to learn it to be closer to the
mainstream.
And this is the main point people need to understand. It is so
irritating hearing some tout Photoshop as the only solution for
serious editing. It implies that no other tools are capable. THIS
IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. The issue is mainstream acceptance and thus,
accesss to a vast array of online help, books, videos, CD
tutorials, etc. The 3rd party support machine simply churns out
accessories for the Photoshop user. Those of us that swim upstream
are not lacking in any capability. But we lack in community with a
great number of image editing people and we lack access to what
they have access to. But we don't lack editing power. We just have
to be resolved to being loners. That is fine for some, not fine for
others. Each must make up their mind and understand the tradeoffs.
--
Mike Flaherty
http://imageevent.com/mflaherty/mikesgallery
 
Geez Mike, don't blow your top!
Ed, I'm sorry. But to understand my reaction, you have to understand my reasoning and experience. I train people in digital imaging. Many have heard that they "need" Photoshop. They have gone out and purchased it only to be totally overwhelmed. But the real kicker is that for what they want to do, they are NOT ones who need Photoshop. Microsoft's Picture It! would have been more than enough for their needs. But they are unaware of alternatives. I've witnessed this over a period of years. So I ask myself, "Where does this notion/attitude come from?" It comes from forums like this where people make absolute statements with no qualifications and worse yet, no real experience with a variety of tools to render such an absolute judgement. So whenever I see it, I flip out some times. This was one of those times.
I am just a big fan of Photoshop because of my own experiences with
this software.
I have no problem with that at all. It's just the absolute statements I have a problem with because they can mislead people.
Of course there are other good programs in the
market and anybody should get whatever suits his or her own needs
best. But given the fact that the entire graphics industry seems
to have embraced Photoshop as the standard for image editing, I do
not feel that I am giving somebody wrong advice be recommending
Photoshop.
This is a fine line. But I do think it is bad advice if the requirments of the one requesting the advice is not taken into consideration. Over the past 10 years there have been thousands of thread in various forums where a person asks for a recommendation AND states their requirements as far as price and functionality is concerned, only to have people totally ignore that and they, "You need Photoshop". Well, in my book, that is bad advice. How do I advice people?

First, I make SURE I understand their desires, requirements, and budget. Secondly, I make sure to understand their level of interest in digital imaging. Are they a hobbiest? Might they want to go into the profession one day? Based on those answers, I give my adivce. For those who want to enter professional graphics as an employee of a graphic outfit, then the answer is a no brainer. Run out and get Photoshop. Not because its necessarily the "best", but because you will be hired or not based on your PS skills. For those interested in the most power for the dollar, I go a different route. If they only want to edit images, then in my opinion the hands down winner is Picture Window Pro at $85. If they want a more general purpose graphics tool with outstanding image editing functionality, then it's Paint Shop Pro or PhotoImpact. If they want the absolute most powerful graphics tool suite (bitmap editing and vector illustration) at the best cost (i.e. high value), then the Corel's Graphic Suite 11 (Corel Draw 11, Photo Paint 11, and RAVE) is extremely hard to beat at about $450. If I sense that access to the main stream is going to be important to them, I make sure they understand the tradeoffs of not going with Photoshop if they decide not to. In other words, I try to push these people towards Photoshop.

The point is that different people get different answers because we are all different.
I am just RECOMMENDING ok!!! If somebody aks for
advice, some other person will recommend, that how this forum works.

I ever ceases to amaze me how people can get upset by other people
supporting certain brands/software/camera etc. At the end of the
day it is people's own responsibility to make decisions.
Absolutely correct. But don't place me in the category of pushing any specific tool. You made an unqualified, absolute statement. I disagreed and gave my reasoning. I feel it is important because silence implies agreement. I have been on the seeking/searching end of things and I always appreciated it when I could learn about as many sides of the story as I could before making a decision. That's what I'm doing in this thread.
Ed
I have been using Photoshop 5.0LE for a number of years and found
it to be a very good program. I always thought it was not worth
upgrading to the full photoshop. That is until I purchased
Photoshop 5.5 on ebay, new but for only $135. I tell you,
Photoshop is really the way to go. It may take a while to learn
all the features and it may have more features than you'll ever
use, but its power is truly amazing. I just purchased the
Photoshop 7 upgrade on ebay for $135 as well, so I now have the
full version 7 for only $270!!

At the end of the day, with a camera as advanced as the D60 you
would be shortselling yourself by not using Photoshop.
HOW!!!!! Come on now. What exactly is it? If one doesn't use
Photoshop, how will there images be damaged?

To thopse reading this thread, do not make the mistakeof thinking
that I'm saying Photoshop is not capable or overestimated. Not at
all. It is extremely capable. My issue is with those that think it
is the ONLY capable tool out there. That somehow, one is missing
out if they don't use it. These claims are routinely made with NO
supporting facts. It's been my experience over the past 10+ years
that people cannot believe all the things that can be done in
Photoshop. They then ASSUME that they cannot be done elsewhere.
This is a false assumption.
Ed
I recently purchased the D60 and lens. I have been looking into
programs for image editing and found that the most popular one is
the Adobe Photoshop. All I really want to do right now is crop,
dodge & burn, etc. --- just the basics. Any suggestions? Thanks in
advance. Rich
 
Mike Greer wrote:
This is the kind of factless, rediculous hyperbole that misleads
many. "nothing on Earth that compares?". What exactly is it that
doesn't compare?
Please! Enough with the hype. Let's have a
quantitative discussion. What exactly is it that you think Photshop
allows you to do that can't be done in another editor?
Yes, a Hyundai also takes you from point A to point B but does that mean everyone should only buy Hyundais because they "do the job"? I don't have the time nor do I need to prove it to you, but show me another program that does what the healing brush or patch tool does in PS. Show me a program that allows nonlinear history states, the liquefy and extract tools, the advanced layer masking, layer sets, different layer blend modes, and the myriad ways to color correct images. The list is endless. The program is so big that you could go on for years and still not discover all that it has to offer. Some may find this daunting, I think it is wonderful.
How is this defined? How do we measure this? What
are the critical components of the measurment?
Not to belabour the point, but the best way to do this would be to take simple tasks that most people need eg. red eye removal and see how different programs handle it. Of all the ones I have used, PS does it best, and there are at least 5 different ways to do it in PS, each better than the other. If you have done this, you will know that not all red eye removals give the same results. And yes, Actions in PS will allow you to do this with just one keypress.
Are they universally agreed upon?
Visit the top fashion houses in NY and see what program their graphic artistes are using - I have. PS is the most pirated program in the world (no discussions on the merits of piracy please!), there are conventions and seminars on the program in Argentina, Peru, India and many other places. Is that universal enough for you?

There is no "right" or "wrong" way to do a thing, just that most people would agree that photoshop is the best image editing/manipulating....whatever program out there, and those like myself who have used it and used it well will never go back to anything else.

Pradeep.
 
Chris,

I'm so glad you understand where I'm coming from. I can't tell you how many times over the past 7 years I've "gotten into it" with people about this very issue. Most assume that I'm bashing Photoshop. That just tells me they haven't taken the time to read. In this country, we seem to think that for one thing to be good, everything else has to be bad. This is not true. How does Photoshop being an excellent product, prevent others from having excellent products? Is there a law that precludes 2 or more products in the same category from being excellent? Of course not.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback and may God bless your photographic pursuits.
Hello Mike,

I actually agree with many of your comments. The main difference
is in the large user base.

Let's face it, digital photo editing on a high level is difficult.
If I have a problem, all I have to do is go in the internet and
find someone with a tutorial on how to do this or that in PhotoShop
or some action or plug-in.

There is a far large amount of tutorials, actions and plug-ins for
Photoshop than any other program and that is Photoshop's real power!

Chris
 

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