New to M4/3, what camera?

Daniel Har

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Hi all!

I already own a Nikon D700/D300 + a whole bunch of glass and I'm very happy. But, many times I don't want to lug arround the few thousand dollars and kilos of equipment. With the new mirrorless cameras it looks like finally I can replace my P&S with something almost with similar SLR quality and funcionality.

I see both the Panasonic GF-1 and the Olympus PEN's have almost the same to offer, the body, similarly equivalent lenses and their corresponding EVF adapters. I'm unsure to what model to choose. My main concerns are build quality, ergonomics (menu and buttons/dials) and lens compatability between the different M4/3's cameras. Also, do theese camera permit bracketing?

From real experience, what are your thougts on theese? I'm unsure between the GF-1 and the PEN EP-1/EP-2. I also read about the poor AF on the Oly's. About the price, It's not my main concern in the decision.
 
The m4/3 system is very early in its lifecycle so there are flaws and gaps that will take time to work out and you will have to balance your specific needs against the flaws and gaps in the m4/3 system components you choose.

My thought process went something like:

Panasonic
  • (+) Better design and ergonomics
  • (+) Higher Resolution display(s)
  • (+) Build in flash
  • (+) Better lenses
  • (-) JPEG Quality
  • (-) IS for ALL lenses
Olympus
  • (+) Better build quality (except EPL1)
  • (+) Collapsable kit lens
  • (+) Better JPEGs / Oly Colors (been a big Oly fan for a long time so this was big for me)
  • (-) Missing built in flash (except EPL1)
  • (-) Reported slow focus speeds (better in EPL1)
  • (-) Lower resolution display(s)
Ultimately I was looking for a replacement for my E510 2 lens kit with some size and weight savings. Most of my subjects are nature and wildlife so I was less worried about focus and usability speed.

I chose an E-PL1 kit as it was the cheapest m4/3 body with the most features I was looking for. I added a Panasonic 45-200 for a total system cost of less than $900. I'll use it for a couple months to decide if its been a good choice and move further into or out of the system from there.

Hope this helps. Beware my opinions are suspect because I'm also anxiously waiting for a Sigma DP2s (even more flawed in many ways but brilliant IQ and much more compact)

--
Regards
Jim
 
Thanks Jim!

At first sight I like the Olympus, but the Panasonic looks tempting with the F1.7 pancake lens. As you stated, both have their flaws so It's difficult to choose one. I really like the EP-2, and I'm worried about the JPG output as I may not be shooting RAW all the time. Also, how are the cameras compared in video?

Initially I only want either the 20mm or the 17mm lenses, as what I'm looking for is a very compact alternative when not using my Nikon's.
 
In my experience so far, issues with the Olympus focus are more something I've read about and rarely experienced.

I've only had my E-P1 for about two and half weeks so I'm not an m4/3 authority. But I'm already on my third battery charge so I'm guessing I've taken 500 pictures with the camera.

The only time the focus was an issue was at an indoor carshow last weekend. I think that had less to do with the camera and more to do with the subjects. I shot a lot of subjects that had very indistinct, shiny surfaces and the camera did miss focus a few times. I also had my e-510 DSLR with an 11-22m lens and it focussed perfectly.

I suspect that people moving from DSLR to m4/3 are going to be more critical and quicker to find fault with focus. My experience is that the focus is a very minor issue. The slightly lesser performance compared to DSLR is not unexpected but neither is it worth much concern.
 
Try the Pen with the Panny 20mm lens. Many here like it. I have the E-P1 with both kit lenses (the 14-42 and the 17mm). I have found that the focus on the E-P1 is a little faster than my Canon G9 P&S, and maybe a little more accurate, even though the G9 has a focus assist light. For me, the focus is consistent and accurate, but it takes its time. I just don't use it for blazing action shots, though I've taken plenty of my 7 year old riding her bike or playing outside. I've had the Pen since last July and still am perfectly happy with it. I also use a Pentax K20D system for more specialty/serious shots.

--
Russ
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rfortson/
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/russfortson
Even bad photography can be fun :)

 
Thanks Brent!

I'm not looking for blazing fast autofocus, but I also don't want it to get in the way. If want to shoot action or low light I'll take my D700, but issues with the PEN shooting normal static or slowly moving subjects would be a problem.
 
They only state that focussing seems to be fast enough for their needs. In fact, one poster compares his Oly m4/3 camera focussing speed to be faster than his Canon G9 digicam. In contrast, the GF-1's focussing speed is as fast as an entry level DSLR.

I shoot Nikon D700, one of the fastest focussing cameras around, and the GF-1 constantly surprises me with how quick it achieves focus being a non-DSLR/SLR format.

If you're shooting candids, this could make a difference. Professional reviews note the GF-1's faster focussing speed, as well.

Both the Oly and the Panny m4/3 are good cameras. The Olympus has in-body stabilization, which would help if you shoot a lot of available low light landscapes and still lifes, a little better high ISO performance, and better JPEGs. (Shoot RAW if you want to get the most out of any camera). I've handled both cameras (EP-1 and GF-1) and build quality is excellent for both cameras.

If you want a near-pocketable camera that can focus fast enough to shoot people, the GF-1 is likely a better choice.
 
I've been reading a bit more and I think the GF-1 is the one for me. I think the shortcomings of the GF-1 can be easily dealt with. I mostly shoot RAW, so the final JPG can be tweaked accordingly. I've also read that the GF-1's LCD is superior, and I'm already spoiled by the gorgeous screen on the D300 and D700! lol.

I think the biggest problem with reading about theese new cameras is that they are in the middle of the market, so you have people with P&S saying how great they are, and DSLR users complaining about slow/bad/lack of features. In my case, I see this as an improvement of my current P&S, not a replacement of my DSLR's.
 
I, too recently purchased an Olympus E-PL1. I apologize if some find this post too long (skip over it), but I was going to post most of this in my "new E-PL1" thread anyway, so I hope it is of value to the OP and some others...

Jim, although I realize that many of your points are subjective, and you are welcome to your opinion, my own thought process leads me to some different conclusions, and I post them in reply to your own list (which hits on most points I consider important) for the OP:
The m4/3 system is very early in its lifecycle so there are flaws and gaps that will take time to work out and you will have to balance your specific needs against the flaws and gaps in the m4/3 system components you choose.
Although I agree that the OP's specific needs must be considered, I don't see it so much as against flaws and gaps but rather vs available features and options with each camera model, etc.
My thought process went something like:
Panasonic
  • (+) Better design and ergonomics
The Oly cameras have some good engineering in their camera designs as well. I personally prefer the Oly ergonomics, but I am biased!

I encourage the OP to handle some of these cameras if possible, read manuals and reviews etc.
  • (+) Higher Resolution display(s)
For the back LCD on the G1, GH1, and announced G2; Not so for the GF1 and G10.

For electronic viewfinders, the Oly E-P2 and E-PL2 have the same resolution as the G1, G2, and GH1 (and perhaps the G10 as well, I'm not certain).
  • (+) Build in flash
  • (+) Better lenses
"Better lenses"? Panasonic have more µ4thirds lenses at this point in time, and some of them are really nice, but in their own ranges current Oly offerings are also excellent, with two new zooms coming out this month (though admittedly as yet untested, but I expect them to be excellent), and many of the existing Oly 4thirds lenses work well with an adapter on the Oly cameras (not certain about on the Pannys).

I should also point out to the OP that whichever camera body is purchased (Panny or Oly), µ4thirds lenses from both companies are compatible on all bodies. Furthermore, with adapters one can use so many different manufacturers' 35mm legacy lens going back 5 decades (older than that, even, and some other formats besides 35mm!), though of course in manual mode.
  • (-) JPEG Quality
  • (-) IS for ALL lenses
The lack of in-body IS on the Pannys is a deal-killer for me. All of my lenses are stabilized!
Olympus
  • (+) Better build quality (except EPL1)
I have handled the E-P2 and the E-PL1 and see no differences in build quality. The E-P2 is a bit heavier due to the metal shell around the outside, but inside they are of similar construction and I'll bet the E-PL2 holds up at least as well as the E-P1/2.
  • (+) Collapsable kit lens
  • (+) Better JPEGs / Oly Colors (been a big Oly fan for a long time so this was big for me)
  • (-) Missing built in flash (except EPL1)
...which is one reason I chose the E-PL1.
  • (-) Reported slow focus speeds (better in EPL1)
More dependent on the lenses used, and depends on shooting style/needs whether or not this seems significant. The OP should try the body and lenses which seem to best fit needs before buying!
  • (-) Lower resolution display(s)
See my comments above, re Panasonic...

Also, as I am very dependent on the electronic viewfinder (which is the same image size as my E-3), I have not found my E-PL1's back LCD resolution to be even a consideration, even though I have used it as well for focusing etc.

Personally, I tried out both the GH1 and the E-PL1 in the store and preferred the Olympus electronic viewfinder to the Panasonic one, although I know that some here prefer the Panasonic's slightly higher magnification. I noticed more "strobing" effect through the viewfinder on the Panny GH1 as the camera and subject moved around, which I found to be a bit distracting.
Ultimately I was looking for a replacement for my E510 2 lens kit with some size and weight savings. Most of my subjects are nature and wildlife so I was less worried about focus and usability speed.
None of the µ4thirds bodies can match most DSLRs in focusing speed. E-PL1 does answer most of my shooting style (travel, casual, and street photography).
I chose an E-PL1 kit as it was the cheapest m4/3 body with the most features I was looking for. I added a Panasonic 45-200 for a total system cost of less than $900. I'll use it for a couple months to decide if its been a good choice and move further into or out of the system from there.
The E-PL1 kit (w/14-42mm) and viewfinder for $830. Next is a 4thirds adapter, and I am lusting for the 9-18mm due to be shipping soon...
Hope this helps. Beware my opinions are suspect because I'm also anxiously waiting for a Sigma DP2s (even more flawed in many ways but brilliant IQ and much more compact)
My opinions may be suspect as well, Jim! ;)

My additional positives for the E-PL1:

1. There are 3 user interfaces to choose from. The iAuto mode offers simple but effective additional control over your otherwise automatic photo. The other two interfaces (for P, A, S, and M dial modes) are either the same Super Control Panel (SCP) interface of Oly DSLRs, or the default user interface which behaves similar to my family's compact Canon cameras - such as the SD300 and SD780is.

2. Can manually set aperture and shutter in the movie mode.

My negatives about the E-PL1:

1. no provision for remote shutter release. Workaround is to use the 2-second shutter delay for critical tripod work.

2. bracketing 3 shots, max + / - 1 f-stop. I use 2 stops for HDR work. Workaround is either 2 sets using exposure compensation, or manual mode.

3. HD video...prefer smaller AVCHD file size, and a native 24p option. (don't care about 7min/scene max). Just the same, the video is excellent.

Cheers,
Dennis.

--
-Dennis W.
Austin, Texas

 
Thanks for the long post 3dwag!

I agree with most of what you said, but for what I read, the AF is superior in the Panasonic. I can tweak RAW files to suit my needs, but can't tweak AF to be faster :P Although the on camera IS of the Oly is clearly an advantage. Can you set the aperture and shutter manually in movie mode on the GF-1? Another plus for the Panasonic is up to 7 frames for AE Bracketing, since I do some HDR work.

Unfortunately I live in the Dominican Republic and I don't know any shop or friend with either of theese.

One note, the specs indicate 460,000 for the back LCD of the GF-1, and 230,000 for the Oly's, so this is another consideration.
 
Thanks for the long post 3dwag!

I agree with most of what you said, but for what I read, the AF is superior in the Panasonic. I can tweak RAW files to suit my needs, but can't tweak AF to be faster :P Although the on camera IS of the Oly is clearly an advantage. Can you set the aperture and shutter manually in movie mode on the GF-1? Another plus for the Panasonic is up to 7 frames for AE Bracketing, since I do some HDR work.

Unfortunately I live in the Dominican Republic and I don't know any shop or friend with either of theese.

One note, the specs indicate 460,000 for the back LCD of the GF-1, and 230,000 for the Oly's, so this is another consideration.
Couple things to consider:

Oly's IBIS doesn't work when shooting movies. Panny's OIS does (you can use the OIS in movie mode if you mount a Panny lens on an Oly body, though).

You cannot control shutter speed or aperture directly in movie mode on a GF1, but you can control the aperture within the limits of the allowed exposure (with no feedback as to what the actual value is).

Bracketing on the GF1 is limited to +-2/3 EV with 3-shot, +-1.3 with 5-shot, and +-2 EV with 7 shot. You need to hold the trigger down for AEB, and you can't combine timer and AEB, so if you're big on bracketing, I suggest doing it manually or getting a remote shutter release.

You are correct about the higher resolution of the LCD on the GF1. All the G bodies have higher resolution LCDs than Oly's current offerings.

I own a GF1, have only played around with the E-PL1 in camera stores. From my brief experience with them, the AF is indeed noticeably slower, but the Oly lenses also focus slower. The Oly bodies do speed up AF with Panny lenses from what I've read.

There are ICC profiles out there to get Oly-like colours out of Panny JPEGs, but since I only shoot raw, I've never tested them. However, the Oly does have a slightly clearer JPEG engine if you pixel peep.

Panny's lenses are empirically tested as being sharper than Oly's MFT lenses. You only need to look up any review of a MFT lens on this site to see that. However, they are also bigger and more expensive in general.

I'd put the E-PL1 and GF1 at equal value in my book. The E-P2, not so much anymore (since the E-PL1 came out). E-PL1 has the edge in high ISO performance and GF1 in video and build (this thing is easily as solid as my Canon 1D or Leica R4). If you can get the VF-2 for the E-PL1, then that is even better for outdoor shooting in bright sunlight.

BTW, if you do a lot of tripod/panning work, the tripod mount on the E-PL1 is off-axis. Correctable in software these days but still an issue for some.
 
Thanks Jim!

At first sight I like the Olympus, but the Panasonic looks tempting with the F1.7 pancake lens. As you stated, both have their flaws so It's difficult to choose one. I really like the EP-2, and I'm worried about the JPG output as I may not be shooting RAW all the time. Also, how are the cameras compared in video?

Initially I only want either the 20mm or the 17mm lenses, as what I'm looking for is a very compact alternative when not using my Nikon's.
If you like m4/3, are going to shoot RAW most of the time, and want just a pancake lens to start I would choose the Panny as you can get it in kit form for a reasonable price and its a great camera.

If you really only think you will need a short prime and a compact camera for your purposes you might take a look at one of the new Sigma's (DP1x 28mm f4 and DP2s 42mm f2.8). They are a little quirky, but have brilliant IQ and usually exceptional lenses.

--
Regards
Jim
 
Although I initially want only the Pancake lens, I may want to use one of the kit lenses or maybe other newer lenses that come up :) Looks like I'm going for the Panasonic!
 
If you are coming from a D700, i dont think you will be satisfied with many of the current m43 lens offerings. The only ones i would consider are the 20f1.7 and maybe the overpriced 45f2.8.

The rest of the lenses are kit-quality and will be glaringly awful compared to what you are shooting with now.

So, you best bet might be GF1 + 20f1.7
Hi all!

I already own a Nikon D700/D300 + a whole bunch of glass and I'm very happy. But, many times I don't want to lug arround the few thousand dollars and kilos of equipment. With the new mirrorless cameras it looks like finally I can replace my P&S with something almost with similar SLR quality and funcionality.

I see both the Panasonic GF-1 and the Olympus PEN's have almost the same to offer, the body, similarly equivalent lenses and their corresponding EVF adapters. I'm unsure to what model to choose. My main concerns are build quality, ergonomics (menu and buttons/dials) and lens compatability between the different M4/3's cameras. Also, do theese camera permit bracketing?

From real experience, what are your thougts on theese? I'm unsure between the GF-1 and the PEN EP-1/EP-2. I also read about the poor AF on the Oly's. About the price, It's not my main concern in the decision.
 
I'm fine with it being better than both the BlackBerry's camera and Canon SD600 P&S, specially in the manual controls :P I want a little decent camera to carry when my heavier gear would stay home. The best camera is the one that you have with you right?

Also my girlfriend is starting to like photography but sometimes is afraid to pick the D700 with one of the big lenses mounted because of the the weight and how expensive it is hahahaha
 
Many good answers from Voldenuit, and I stand corrected and add to a few points...

To the original poster, Daniel - if you can wait you may seriously consider the G2 - I would have waited for it if it had in-body IS! :)
I agree with most of what you said, but for what I read, the AF is superior in the Panasonic. I can tweak RAW files to suit my needs, but can't tweak AF to be faster :P Although the on camera IS of the Oly is clearly an advantage. Can you set the aperture and shutter manually in movie mode on the GF-1? Another plus for the Panasonic is up to 7 frames for AE Bracketing, since I do some HDR work.
It goes back to what Jim said earlier - your needs vs what different models offer/don't offer.

If you are concerned about having the edge in focus speed then Panasonic is the better choice for you. My understanding from some others' comments and with my experience in the store with GH1 and E-PL1, is that the Panasonic lens design is the larger factor in focusing speed, but that was limited to 4 lenses (2 each Pana and Oly) and a relatively short time.
One note, the specs indicate 460,000 for the back LCD of the GF-1, and 230,000 for the Oly's, so this is another consideration.
I stand corrected. The GF-1 LCD has about double the dots of the Oly - too many models and specs to keep straight in my mind when typing!
Oly's IBIS doesn't work when shooting movies. Panny's OIS does (you can use the OIS in movie mode if you mount a Panny lens on an Oly body, though).
...it is not a big deal for me since this is not my primary HD camcorder, and I can use a tripod or brace against something. This is where Panasonic's in-lens IS is an advantage (for video). I don't know if a Pana lens with OIS can be used on the E-PL1 for video with IS on, perhaps someone else here can answer to that.

My larger need is to be able stabilize all of my lenses for still photography, young and old alike!
I own a GF1, have only played around with the E-PL1 in camera stores. From my brief experience with them, the AF is indeed noticeably slower, but the Oly lenses also focus slower. The Oly bodies do speed up AF with Panny lenses from what I've read.
Q.E.D.
I'd put the E-PL1 and GF1 at equal value in my book. The E-P2, not so much anymore (since the E-PL1 came out). E-PL1 has the edge in high ISO performance and GF1 in video and build (this thing is easily as solid as my Canon 1D or Leica R4). If you can get the VF-2 for the E-PL1, then that is even better for outdoor shooting in bright sunlight.
I also really like the fact that the VF-2 finder can tilt up 90°, very convenient for my poor back and knees for low-level photography, including a lot of waist-level tripod shooting!
BTW, if you do a lot of tripod/panning work, the tripod mount on the E-PL1 is off-axis. Correctable in software these days but still an issue for some.
Especially a problem for panos. Many small cameras have this issue, also including the E-P1 and E-P2. I use Acratech ballheads and the owner Scott told me that they are planning to offer a plate for the E-PL1 which corrects this problem. The E-PL1 has a locating hole on the bottom which is in-line with the lens and will assist in centering the camera properly using a plate with a locating pin. Acratech plates are Arca-Swiss compatible.

Good luck, and have some fun with your new camera, Daniel, whatever it may be!

--
-Dennis W.
Austin, Texas

 
I've been reading a bit more and I think the GF-1 is the one for me. I think the shortcomings of the GF-1 can be easily dealt with. I mostly shoot RAW, so the final JPG can be tweaked accordingly. I've also read that the GF-1's LCD is superior, and I'm already spoiled by the gorgeous screen on the D300 and D700! lol.
One caution, Daniel. The GF-1 screen may be higher resolution than the Oly offerings, but I have not found a camera yet with an LCD which can truly hold up in bright sunlight, and the GF-1 optional viewfinder is low-resolution, vs the very high-resolution Oly VF-2 finder. Another reason to wait for the G2 if you prefer Panasonic route and need video as well. (or just go for the more expensive GH1).

Nothing that is simple, is simple!

Good luck!

--
-Dennis W.
Austin, Texas

 
I come from owning Nikon for years, and while it took me a few days to figure out how to set my GF1 to work as a street camera, I finally figured it out. I had set my camera up to mimic the settings on my D200. Set the aperature to the sharpest f/stop (you can find this info on the web), my IS0 to 400 (I shot tri-X for years at this setting) and found my shutter speed almost always well over !,000. I was suprised that these pictures were not coming out sharp. Then I found another site for m4/3 owners where one of these users stated that you shouldn't use image stabilizer at shutter speeds over 1/250 of a sec. Just like you shouldn't use stabilizer when your using a tripod because it will introduce blur where there wouldn't be blur if it were turned off. I tried that and it worked great. One more thing, for the street, I set the focus point to its largest setting, as this seems to mimic the nearest focus setting on the D200. You can even shoot from the hip with these settings and get sharp pictures but of course it is much better if you aim before you shoot.

I have the kit 14-45mm zoom lens, and I am really loving it. I have taken this rig out just about every day since it came. It has taken me a little while to figure out the menu, but once you do it really is simple. Yesterday, I went uptown and no one came out and asked who I was taking pictures for. No one stared at the camera when I asked if I could take a picture. I talk to people like a flower vendor or hot dog vendor and then after talking I point at the GF1 and ask if I could take a few pictures and everyone has said yes. My best lens for my Nikon is the 17-35mm f/2.8. That lens weighs more than my GF1.

I have found that I really do want the EVF. I didn't purchase one with the camera because I saw a rumor that Panasonic was getting ready to issue a newer better model than what they had out there. You can't buy one in Japan, and the rumor stated that they were no longer being manufactured. B&H has them listed as out of stock.

I originally thought I was going to get the Leica X1, but after reading the reviews of both the GF1 and the X1 I went with the GF1. The one thing I don't think you asked about but is part of the M4/3 package, is that this is a fun system to use. I am back having fun with my camera that has been missing for many years. The camera had really become just a tool. It still is a tool, but it is a fun tool to use.

http://www.photosbypike.com
 
  • In body image stabilization - I'm able to get stabilized shots with 3rd party manual focus & legacy lenses.
  • Auto rotating LCD display - Great for portrait shots.
  • Ability to use 4/3 Olympus lenses with AF functionality via an adapter, if I need.
  • Better EVF - Useful for bright daylight, macros and manual focus.
Cheers,
--
Sabesh
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sabesh/
 

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