SD9 + Foveon = Problems

Michael Long · Sep 30, 2002

Much has been made of the remarkable Foveon chip whose color rendition is superb -- even though, pixel-resolution-wise, it's not going to take down a Kodak 14n or 1Ds anytime soon.

Much has also been made of the Foveon as the "future" of photography. That may be true, but for it to be the future, it has to get there first, and there are a few pebbles (if not boulders) strewn in its path.

First and foremost is the tie to Sigma. There are many who may like the idea of the chip, but simply will not buy it because:

1) They already have an investment in Canon or Nikon and can't -- or won't -- sell.

2) They don't want to end up with a "dead-end" Sigma lens mount system, if the Foveon does indeed move to the majors.

3) They're like Scott Fleming, who won't buy a 3MP camera when 4,5,6,11, and 14 MP cameras exist, and is planning to sit on the sidelines until something better appears.
4) They don't believe in Sigma's quality.
5) They need low light capabilities (ISO 400 max).
6) They need wide angle capabilities (1.7x FOV factor, worse than D60).
7) They need the capabilities of a "professional" body (D1/1D).
8) They want (or think they want) more pixels to make large prints.

All of the above, for those reasons and more, are NOT going to buy the SD9. So the real question becomes: will enough people, who're not in the aforementioned groups, buy one?

If Sigma manages to sell enough cameras, then I suspect the other camera companies will take notice. If not...

And as Karl notices in the the following post. The other manufacturers are NOT standing still. They have the lead, they have the resources, and they have an investment in their own technologies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=3475121

The only real bright spot I see is the 4/3 project. IF it succeeds, and IF Foveon can get someone to produce a 4/3 camera with their chip, then many of the above mentioned issues (dead-end lens mount, small sensor size) go away.

But those are a couple of big ifs.... and the road is long.

There have been many, many companies that have introduced "superior" technologies -- and not managed to properly market and sell them.

I do hope -- and I mean it sincerely -- that Foveon isn't one of them.

harry · Sep 30, 2002

Michael,

You raised a lot of good points but missed one important fact. The Foveon technology IS here, not a pipe dream. From what personally have seen, the 3mp Foveon sensor is as good as the 6mp from other brands. The form factor is a myth because there's no technology barrier to prohibit Foveon to produce a full frame sensor just like Canon and Kodak have recently done so.

As I am not the type of person who jumps at the latest and greatest, I might not support the Foveon/Sigma cause at this point. However, I would be very curious that who would come out the first Foveon consumer grade sensor on a 10x optical zoom?

Harry

Michael Long said:
Much has been made of the remarkable Foveon chip whose color
rendition is superb -- even though, pixel-resolution-wise, it's not
going to take down a Kodak 14n or 1Ds anytime soon.

Much has also been made of the Foveon as the "future" of
photography. That may be true, but for it to be the future, it has
to get there first, and there are a few pebbles (if not boulders)
strewn in its path.

First and foremost is the tie to Sigma. There are many who may like
the idea of the chip, but simply will not buy it because:

1) They already have an investment in Canon or Nikon and can't --
or won't -- sell.
2) They don't want to end up with a "dead-end" Sigma lens mount
system, if the Foveon does indeed move to the majors.
3) They're like Scott Fleming, who won't buy a 3MP camera when
4,5,6,11, and 14 MP cameras exist, and is planning to sit on the
sidelines until something better appears.
4) They don't believe in Sigma's quality.
5) They need low light capabilities (ISO 400 max).
6) They need wide angle capabilities (1.7x FOV factor, worse than
D60).
7) They need the capabilities of a "professional" body (D1/1D).
8) They want (or think they want) more pixels to make large prints.

All of the above, for those reasons and more, are NOT going to buy
the SD9. So the real question becomes: will enough people, who're
not in the aforementioned groups, buy one?

If Sigma manages to sell enough cameras, then I suspect the other
camera companies will take notice. If not...

And as Karl notices in the the following post. The other
manufacturers are NOT standing still. They have the lead, they have
the resources, and they have an investment in their own
technologies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=3475121

The only real bright spot I see is the 4/3 project. IF it succeeds,
and IF Foveon can get someone to produce a 4/3 camera with their
chip, then many of the above mentioned issues (dead-end lens mount,
small sensor size) go away.

But those are a couple of big ifs.... and the road is long.

There have been many, many companies that have introduced
"superior" technologies -- and not managed to properly market and
sell them.

I do hope -- and I mean it sincerely -- that Foveon isn't one of them.

--
Harry

Wiley Denson · Sep 30, 2002

harry said:
As I am not the type of person who jumps at the latest and
greatest, I might not support the Foveon/Sigma cause at this point.
However, I would be very curious that who would come out the first
Foveon consumer grade sensor on a 10x optical zoom?

Just imagine...an UZI with that chip. I would buy one in a NY minute.
--
Wiley D

Jimmy Chen · Sep 30, 2002

Michael Long said:
Much has been made of the remarkable Foveon chip whose color
rendition is superb -- even though, pixel-resolution-wise, it's not
going to take down a Kodak 14n or 1Ds anytime soon.

I do not recalling seeing Foveon making any claim that they will.

Michael Long said:
1) They already have an investment in Canon or Nikon and can't --
or won't -- sell.

True for existing DSLR users, but not eveyone is a DSLR user.

Michael Long said:
2) They don't want to end up with a "dead-end" Sigma lens mount
system, if the Foveon does indeed move to the majors.

Nor does everyone has the money to invest into Canon L lenses that costs more then the D60 body.

Michael Long said:
3) They're like Scott Fleming, who won't buy a 3MP camera when
4,5,6,11, and 14 MP cameras exist, and is planning to sit on the
sidelines until something better appears.

There are a lot of Scott Flemings out there, as not everyone is a millionair and can affort to spend thousands on a body, then a few thousands more on the lens system.

Michael Long said:
4) They don't believe in Sigma's quality.

Who dont? You, or everyone else? Are those that purchased Sigma lenses for their Nikon/Canon bodies part of the "they"?

Michael Long said:
5) They need low light capabilities (ISO 400 max).

So? Many prosumer cameras has the same limit. I dont see that prevented consumers from buying them.

Michael Long said:
6) They need wide angle capabilities (1.7x FOV factor, worse than
D60).

And compared to my Sony F707's 3.91x FOV factor, the 1.7x FOV factor is a bueaty.

Michael Long said:
7) They need the capabilities of a "professional" body (D1/1D).

Excuse me, but I am only a "low-life" hobbyist. I dont need a 'professiona" body, nor do I have the money to purchase one. Not everyone is a sports/paid professional photographer.

Michael Long said:
8) They want (or think they want) more pixels to make large prints.

Please explain to me how a blurred image with more pixels translate to a better print then a sharp image with less pixels.

Michael Long said:
All of the above, for those reasons and more, are NOT going to buy
the SD9.

Real reasons for you. But you arent the only person in these forums that have your own sets of photography needs and wants. Different people do different photographic shots, hence different needs and hundreds of different cameras available.

Michael Long said:
So the real question becomes: will enough people, who're
not in the aforementioned groups, buy one?

You tell me. Are there more DSLR shooters out there or more prosumer shooters out there? Just what exactly is the SD-9's intended market?

Michael Long said:
And as Karl notices in the the following post. The other
manufacturers are NOT standing still. They have the lead, they have
the resources, and they have an investment in their own
technologies.

Geez, is Karl all of a sudden the industy expert? Just because these companies do so and have the lead do not automatically translate to better technology.

Michael Long said:
The only real bright spot I see is the 4/3 project. IF it succeeds,
and IF Foveon can get someone to produce a 4/3 camera with their
chip, then many of the above mentioned issues (dead-end lens mount,
small sensor size) go away.

Once again, IYHO.

Michael Long said:
There have been many, many companies that have introduced
"superior" technologies -- and not managed to properly market and
sell them.

And there also have been many, many companies that fallen like a giant when they dont change their ways of business. Seagate is a perfect example.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

Thomas Ko · Sep 30, 2002

IMHO

1. Sigma Lenses is not bad compare to Canon Non-L lenses.
2. Sigma EX lenses are not expensive.
3. SD9 is not expensive.
4. 11M, 14M camera are expensive
5. 1D, 14n or D1 body are expensive
6. L Lenses or AF-S lenses are expensive.

7. 3.5MP X3 is over kill in 4"x6", just right in 5"x7" and good enough to print 8"x10" (i think most ppl will be happy with it). For 11"14", the printer, ink and paper are expensive.

This camera is in different market. Just like Civic and NSX, which one will make Honda earn more money?

I didn't say SD9 is better than 1Ds or 14n. But i think it is around the same level of D60, D100 or S2. 1D, D1X, 1Ds and 14n are not for everyone.

--
C.Wolf

Michael Long · Sep 30, 2002

Jimmy Chen said:
True for existing DSLR users, but not eveyone is a DSLR user.

Jimmy Chen said:
You tell me. Are there more DSLR shooters out there or more
prosumer shooters out there? Just what exactly is the SD-9's
intended market?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sigma SD9 is a DSLR, right? Let me look... yeah, sensor, interchangable lens, mirror, shutter... yep, a DSLR.

And it is a camera that's going to cost over $2000, with a lens? Hold on while I check prices... yep, that's right.

So it is going up against Canon's D60 and Nikon's D100 in the "prosumer" DSLR category, is it not?

As such, I think that what I wrote still stands, and that they are issues prospective buyers will weigh when it comes time to spend their hard-earned dollars (or euros, or whatever).

But I could be wrong, so you tell me -- given that the $2000 Sigma SD9 DSLR is the current incarnation of the Foveon technology, who is their market?

And yes, those are my opinions -- this is a place where opinions can be voiced, can they not?

padeye99656 · Sep 30, 2002

Jimmy Chen said:
And compared to my Sony F707's 3.91x FOV factor, the 1.7x FOV
factor is a bueaty.

I'm curious exactly what that number means for the Sony and how you arrived at it. The meaning is crystal clear when referring to cameras that take 35mm SLR lenses.

Michael Long · Sep 30, 2002

So do you have one on order? If so why, if not, then why not?

Scott Fleming · Sep 30, 2002

Especially given that you mentioned ... ME.

Jimmy Chen · Sep 30, 2002

padeye99656 said:
I'm curious exactly what that number means for the Sony and how you
arrived at it. The meaning is crystal clear when referring to
cameras that take 35mm SLR lenses.

In front of the excellent F707 CZ, it is marked 2-2,4/9,7-48.5. Phil has listed the camera has a 35mm eqv of 38-190mm. That is 3.91x.

While I agree with it is more of an issue with a DSLR, but it also tells me my Sony is only able to take am image that amounts to 3.91x FOV factor, compared to a 35mm camera.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

Scott Fleming · Sep 30, 2002

As I said .... I pretty much agree with you on all this.

A large mitigating factor is the unavailability of the D-60. That's the price point competitor. There will be a significant number of people I think who will ralize they can make the best pictures of their lives with the x3, they never print anything over 8 x 10 and THEY CAN'T GET A D60.

Now if Canon wants to bury this camera .....

Jimmy Chen · Sep 30, 2002

Michael Long said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sigma SD9 is a DSLR, right? Let me
look... yeah, sensor, interchangable lens, mirror, shutter... yep,
a DSLR.

Yeah, they are all DSLR. How come you arent comparing the D60/D100/S2Pro against the D1, 1D/1Ds or the Kodak 14mp, and only the SD-9?

Michael Long said:
So it is going up against Canon's D60 and Nikon's D100 in the
"prosumer" DSLR category, is it not?

Yeah.

Michael Long said:
As such, I think that what I wrote still stands, and that they are
issues prospective buyers will weigh when it comes time to spend
their hard-earned dollars (or euros, or whatever).

No, what you wrote do not stand.

Michael Long said:
3) They're like Scott Fleming, who won't buy a 3MP camera when 4,5,6,11, and 14 MP cameras exist, and is planning to sit on the sidelines until something better appears.
7) They need the capabilities of a "professional" body (D1/1D).

Your scope included the "professional" DSLR in your reasoning, not just the "prosumer" level DSLRs, which should only includes those that are at the D60 price or lower cameras. Not the D1, 1D, 1Ds, or K-14n cameras.

Michael Long said:
But I could be wrong, so you tell me -- given that the $2000 Sigma
SD9 DSLR is the current incarnation of the Foveon technology, who
is their market?

LOL, certainly not any of those $4K, $5K, $9K cameras you have included in part of your reasonings.

Michael Long said:
And yes, those are my opinions -- this is a place where opinions
can be voiced, can they not?

Of course, and I am just pointing out your opinion is not the "they" you have used so freely.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

tim martin · Sep 30, 2002

Although I don't really disagree with anything you have said, I think
it is merely a good summary of why Foveon is probably not going
to be taking over the high-end DSLR market anytime soon.

Although quite probably, as I think you agree, it might find some
portion of the DSLR market.

But most of the things you write about are related to DSLR
cameras. What if 7 weeks from now any one of a dozen
different camera companies were to introduce a high-end
point and shoot Foveon camera ?

I really think an $1100 point and shoot camera with a Foveon
sensor, from a company better known than Sigma, would
do very, very well in the marketplace. It might even be a pot
of gold just waiting to be grabbed for a company smart enough
to see it.

Michael Long · Sep 30, 2002

Jimmy Chen said:
In front of the excellent F707 CZ, it is marked 2-2,4/9,7-48.5.
Phil has listed the camera has a 35mm eqv of 38-190mm. That is
3.91x.
While I agree with it is more of an issue with a DSLR, but it also
tells me my Sony is only able to take am image that amounts to
3.91x FOV factor, compared to a 35mm camera.

As that lens is designed for that sensor size, there is no FOV crop.

The 35mm eqv of 38-190mm is simply a convenient reference point that tells us what kind of lens performance (wide to zoom) to expect.

John Mason · Sep 30, 2002

The D60 is pretty close on price and I have that camera. From what I've seen the SD9 images at this early stage are better in terms of:

1. Edge Sharpness
2. Lack of Artifacts

but from what I've seen so far is not as good in:

1. Noise
2. Maxium ISO
3. Color accuracy
4. Edge border effects in high contrast (crosstalk? lens CA?)

5. Ability to shoot JPEG (is that right - I've read that all shots must be processed)

Additional pros and cons are:

D60

1. Will use Sigma and Canon lenses
2. Can shoot JPEG and has Large Useable Embeded JPEG in it's Raw
3. Has Lots of very very good Raw converter tools

Sigma

1. Price
2. Better Clarity in Pictures at Low ISO

So kinda like D100/D60 issues there are good reasons to pick either camera given the price point is so close.

The Sigma shots don't really need USM applied, but it is normal to apply a little USM on the D60 shots. D60 shots are quite high in resolution. Comparing a non-usm'd D60 shot to a non-usm'd shot with an SD9, to me, is not a real comparison of bottom line print clarity. I've seen a few tests posted this way.

I'll will, for sure, try out the SD9 when my local store gets one. It sure looks promising. I'm curious where the real practical trade off is in resolution vs bayer effects.

By the way - the D60 is hard to get, but the SD9 is impossible to get. If it's as good as it looks, it may stay hard to get even once it starts shipping.

John Mason - Lafayette, IN

Thomas Ko · Sep 30, 2002

My will ask me to order. Buy bank account balance tell me not now.
Definetly i will go for it unless Phil find some critical problem in the camera.
But, not now... I want to wait for the review and buy when it drop under $1600.

see, i m a budget tight man... can't buy expensive toys.
--
C.Wolf

Scott Fleming · Sep 30, 2002

Come ON OLY! I'm serriously tempted by the whole 4/3 concept. Just don't give me an itsy bitsy compact job. Smaller is ok but my hands are too big for coolpix type units.

G. Lentz · Sep 30, 2002

No. If anything kills the X3, it will be a combination of ineffective marketing on Foveon's part to differentiate their product, and ignorant consumers who ASSume a 1:1 relationship between the pixel counts of the X3 and your garden variety Bayer sensor.

One could argue that Foveon is being 'honest' in the way they count pixels--indeed, how most people erroneously understand/believe all other manufacturer's claims of what pixel count actually represents. Remember the California law suit over the stated/actual sizes of computer monitor screens? Not quite so cut-and-dried here, is it?

The popular interpretation of a digital camera's megapixel rating as it relates to detail and clarity has nothing to do with the way the things really are. So what?

So... while most Pros are savvy enough to understand that the X3 represents a distinctly different technology, most Joe Schmoe consumers shopping at Wal*Mart, Target, Best Buy and Amazon won't, unless it's S-P-E-L-L-E-D O-U-T for them. And the vast consumer market is where the big money is, and where most products ultimately fail or succeed.

I half-think that it would be to Foveon's advantage to re-designate their product as ' 3' rather than 'X3' (as in 10.62/3 megapixels). Although this would be no more accurate a representation than the Bayer's inflated resolution inferences, it would help level the playing field from a competitive marketing stance.

-gl

Michael Long said:
Much has been made of the remarkable Foveon chip whose color
rendition is superb -- even though, pixel-resolution-wise, it's not
going to take down a Kodak 14n or 1Ds anytime soon.

Much has also been made of the Foveon as the "future" of
photography. That may be true, but for it to be the future, it has
to get there first, and there are a few pebbles (if not boulders)
strewn in its path.

First and foremost is the tie to Sigma. There are many who may like
the idea of the chip, but simply will not buy it because:

1) They already have an investment in Canon or Nikon and can't --
or won't -- sell.
2) They don't want to end up with a "dead-end" Sigma lens mount
system, if the Foveon does indeed move to the majors.
3) They're like Scott Fleming, who won't buy a 3MP camera when
4,5,6,11, and 14 MP cameras exist, and is planning to sit on the
sidelines until something better appears.
4) They don't believe in Sigma's quality.
5) They need low light capabilities (ISO 400 max).
6) They need wide angle capabilities (1.7x FOV factor, worse than
D60).
7) They need the capabilities of a "professional" body (D1/1D).
8) They want (or think they want) more pixels to make large prints.

All of the above, for those reasons and more, are NOT going to buy
the SD9. So the real question becomes: will enough people, who're
not in the aforementioned groups, buy one?

If Sigma manages to sell enough cameras, then I suspect the other
camera companies will take notice. If not...

And as Karl notices in the the following post. The other
manufacturers are NOT standing still. They have the lead, they have
the resources, and they have an investment in their own
technologies.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=3475121

The only real bright spot I see is the 4/3 project. IF it succeeds,
and IF Foveon can get someone to produce a 4/3 camera with their
chip, then many of the above mentioned issues (dead-end lens mount,
small sensor size) go away.

But those are a couple of big ifs.... and the road is long.

There have been many, many companies that have introduced
"superior" technologies -- and not managed to properly market and
sell them.

I do hope -- and I mean it sincerely -- that Foveon isn't one of them.

Ger Bee · Sep 30, 2002

I tend to think that market placement is Foveon's biggest problem. As I mentioned before – my scepticism is based on the Hasselblad and digi-back – to what? One would expect another quality brand, I think it generates confusion as to the direction a company is going.

On one hand we have the sensor, initially marketed as the biggest advance in digital sensing and the giant posters produced with the Hassey were indeed impressive. Now I’d assume they want to bring this quality solution to a mass market in a similar quality vehicle.

On the other hand we have a so-so company making products priced to thrill but with many quality issues that are largely set aside because the produce is cheap and still represents very good value for money. Sigma could well be looking to Foveon to boost their image with a quality and attractive alternative photographic solution – but then continues their "priced to thrill" policy.

So it seems to be an enigma.

--
Live life to the power of Nikon!!! & Kodak - Maybe just Nikon!!!

I have taken down my equipment list because it offended some Oly SLR forum members!

G. Lentz · Sep 30, 2002

So what are you suggesting, a "Big and Tall" camera line?

Scott Fleming said:
Come ON OLY! I'm serriously tempted by the whole 4/3 concept. Just
don't give me an itsy bitsy compact job. Smaller is ok but my hands
are too big for coolpix type units.

SD9 + Foveon = Problems

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