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Will you buy a NON-FOVEAN camera?

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Ulysses said:
Who cares about the 35mm. I'm only concerned with what I'm getting
out of what this one has to offer. :-)

It's still an improvement over the F707/F717 or any other high-end
consumer camera in this specific respect.
Click to expand...
[snip]

A bigger sensor isn't all improvement, you know. You can design a bright, sharp, and small 28-200 mm (equiv.) lens for a small sensor, but not for a big one. The fact is that on a D-SLR that takes 35 mm lenses but has a smaller sensor you're lugging around a lot of glass that you're not using, whereas on a camera where the sensor and the lens are designed to match (whether full-frame D-SLR or small-sensor all-in-one) you're only carrying what you're using.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
 
I think I agree with yoor thoughts Matthew, I will probably go out and trade up from my F707 to a Foveon chip as well. I was thinking about buying an S2 Pro before Photokina but decided to wait and see what was announced at the show before giving anything serious consideration.

One thing that has just occured to me though. the 1st Generation of CMOS Foveon is a 1.7x Focal length Multiplyer. Given that reducing the multiplyer means increasing the CMOS size, it should not be that difficult for Foveon to create the 2nd generation CMOS with the same pixel density per sq cm but on a larger chip....end result even higher resolution and a smaller FLMultiplyer.

I still want to get one in my hands before making a final decision but I have a feeling that I might be waiting until Generation 2 of the chip.

Brad
Matthew Cromer said:
I came into PhotoKina convinced that Foveon was a lot of hot air
and that what I wanted was the new 14MP Kodak or an 11MP Canon.

The stunning realism and fine color detail of the SD9 with good
lenses has just floored me. I don't know if I will pick up the SD9
or wait for a higher resolution Foveon camera, but I do know what
my Sony F707 is the last Bayer interpolation camera I will be
purchasing.
--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work
Click to expand...
--
DCS-F707, Nikon CP 950
 
To be fair, the Sigma is a near-finished product. The Kodak and Canon are still prototypes. The Sigma will be available months before either of them.
Jan Heymeriks said:
I just arrived home from visiting the photokina, and I am very
impressed of the SD9 camera. The images that were shown, were
printed in A3 format and some even larger format. It looked as if
they were shot with an analogue camera. I also saw the kodak DCS
Pro 14n and the Canon 1Ds, but the pictures presented from those
camera's were quite disappointing compared to the sigma.
Until yesterday I wanted to buy the fuji S2, but now I decided to
wait.
Unfortunately this camera is expected in europe in december -
january 2003. Also there is only 1 flashlight that will be
developed for this camera, and that one will also be available at
the end of this year.

greetings from Cologne.
Click to expand...
 
I agree with you in principle. But at least on today's cameras as they currently implement them, I'd enjoy the advantages of greater control of DOF and other features even with a camera that has a 1.7x FOV crop from the 35mm lens.

I'm not really a big fan of carrying the extra glass either. I'm not sure that it's going to be pleasant having a bigger case to lug around.

Maybe in time the industry will find ways of providing hardware that more readily suits the digital capabilities, with lenses to match the small sensor size. But for now.... :-)

Petteri said:
Petteri Sulonen said:
A bigger sensor isn't all improvement, you know. You can design a
bright, sharp, and small 28-200 mm (equiv.) lens for a small
sensor, but not for a big one. The fact is that on a D-SLR that
takes 35 mm lenses but has a smaller sensor you're lugging around a
lot of glass that you're not using, whereas on a camera where the
sensor and the lens are designed to match (whether full-frame D-SLR
or small-sensor all-in-one) you're only carrying what you're using.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
 
Brad Morris said:
One thing that has just occured to me though. the 1st Generation of
CMOS Foveon is a 1.7x Focal length Multiplyer. Given that reducing
the multiplyer means increasing the CMOS size, it should not be
that difficult for Foveon to create the 2nd generation CMOS with
the same pixel density per sq cm but on a larger chip....end result
even higher resolution and a smaller FLMultiplyer.
Click to expand...
Keeping in line with their existing 9um size, they can reach close to 10.5mp when they get to 36x24 FF size.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery
 
Now that will be some camera!
Jimmy Chen said:
Jimmy Chen said:
One thing that has just occured to me though. the 1st Generation of
CMOS Foveon is a 1.7x Focal length Multiplyer. Given that reducing
the multiplyer means increasing the CMOS size, it should not be
that difficult for Foveon to create the 2nd generation CMOS with
the same pixel density per sq cm but on a larger chip....end result
even higher resolution and a smaller FLMultiplyer.
Click to expand...
Keeping in line with their existing 9um size, they can reach close
to 10.5mp when they get to 36x24 FF size.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery
Click to expand...
--
DCS-F707, Nikon CP 950
 
Petteri Sulonen said:
Matthew Cromer said:
I came into PhotoKina convinced that Foveon was a lot of hot air
and that what I wanted was the new 14MP Kodak or an 11MP Canon.

The stunning realism and fine color detail of the SD9 with good
lenses has just floored me. I don't know if I will pick up the SD9
or wait for a higher resolution Foveon camera, but I do know what
my Sony F707 is the last Bayer interpolation camera I will be
purchasing.
Click to expand...
I honestly don't know. There are so many other variables to
consider: shootability, versatility, expandability, price. I do
think I know what my next (main) camera looks like, though: a lot
like the Minolta D7i, but with cleaner high-ISO images, usable
sensitivity up to ISO3200, an EVF with at least twice the
resolution and refresh rate (I'm not going back to a glass
view/rangefinder; I'm too addicted to the live histogram),
auto-focus that's at least three times as fast as now, with usable
continuous AF, and maybe interchangeable lenses.

I like the idea of the 4/3 system -- it combines the portability
and more versatile optics of a small-sensor digicam with the
versatility and expandability of an interchangeable-lens SLR; I've
stated elsewhere that I'm not too crazy about the idea of lugging
around kilos of equipment.

In other words, for my style of shooting image quality is already
sufficient in the D7i: it's more important for me that the camera
lets me get the shot I want. If the camera I described above also
has significantly higher resolution, low-ISO noise, and dynamic
range I won't complain, of course, but these are limitations I can
live with.

And as to your question... it depends. Given a choice between
otherwise identical Foveon-based and Bayer-based cameras both of
which fulfil the criteria above, I'd go for the Foveon -- but this
is not very high in my personal list of priorities.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/
Click to expand...
I will buy whatever chip gives me " Significant " improvement in the final output. Which to me means a print. I printed(epson 1280) the samples from the Foveon and compared them to the S2 and am not buying into the Foveon hysteria. Perhaps the next generation 6-7mp without the Sigma mount....which is a big no for me! Whatever

next camera I will buy will need to a)accept my Nikon glass and b)print a " Significant" improved 13x19 print than I'm getting now and in the $3000-$4000 range. The key word to me is "Significant" not minutely.
Boris

http://public.fotki.com/borysd/
 
Hi Boris
Boris said:
I will buy whatever chip gives me " Significant " improvement in
the final output. Which to me means a print. I printed(epson 1280)
the samples from the Foveon and compared them to the S2 and am not
buying into the Foveon hysteria. Perhaps the next generation 6-7mp
without the Sigma mount....which is a big no for me! Whatever
next camera I will buy will need to a)accept my Nikon glass and
b)print a " Significant" improved 13x19 print than I'm getting now
and in the $3000-$4000 range. The key word to me is "Significant"
not minutely.
Boris
Click to expand...
The resolving power of todays home printers and the ordered dither method of printing from Photoshop are what causes the results you see.

However, output from Foveon is better on large prints (16 x 20) and would probably be much better with professional output (i.e. printing press run).

In addition, I've made small crops from the Foveon samples, interpolated them up and the results are once again much better then from my D1x. I've been frantically playing with for a couple of days now and I'm sold on the technology IF NOT THE CAMERA. These are two different questions.

Dave
Boris said:
http://public.fotki.com/borysd/
Click to expand...
 
Shay Stephens said:
My F717 will be my last one too. Once the SD9 is out and I can get
the lenses I need I will be going Foveon too.

--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
Click to expand...
That's it for me too! The only camera which had good rendition for me was the Canon Pro70. Looks like I'll be getting a SD9. Was thinking of a new Canon but that is out the window now.

I will wait a little while to see how the body does and see some more samples using different lenses but I am sure Sigma has done their homework on this one. An amazing camera!
--
Regards,
Gavin
Canon Pro90IS, B-300 Canon Pro 70
 
I certainly would. Foveon is a very promising technology, but I would not claim that the SD9 beats the current 6 megapixel cameras like the D60 (though it is quite competitive). The price is fairly close. Who knows when Foveon will come up with the next generation of cameras. For me available light (and hence high ISO with low noise) capability is very important - it dramatically expands the camera's potential, and the Foveon still falls short here.

I find it a bit odd that so many people currently using small-CCD single lens cameras which are top of the line in that range (like Sony and Minolta), but clearly in a different league from the likes of the D60, suddenly find that 'Bayer' DSLRs which received rave reviews just a couple months ago are no longer acceptable. They are certainly good enough for me, particularly if the price drops to $1500 or so at online discounters in the next few months.
--
Misha
 
A Canon Rep (who shoots with a Nikon D1, by the way) said the Canon 1Ds is expected to be released by the end of October. Now, I understand that Canon Reps, particularly local reps, aren't necessarily "in the loop," so this quick release date may not come to pass.

I found it interesting that the Canon Rep told me he is waiting to see what the Sigma chip will be like before buying his next digital SLR. (I got the impression that Canon is eagerly waiting to see how the Sigma chip will produce.) He has the D30, but mostly shoots with a Nikon D1. He's also waiting, like the rest of us, to learn what the price of the Canon 1Ds will be. When I pressed him, he didn't hesitate to report that it was coming out very soon.

So, here is a Canon pro, using a Nikon, and waiting for the Sigma to revolutionize the digital SLR.

Intersting, huh?

Michael John Kelly
Yoav Nir said:
Jan Heymeriks said:
I just arrived home from visiting the photokina, and I am very
impressed of the SD9 camera. The images that were shown, were
printed in A3 format and some even larger format. It looked as if
they were shot with an analogue camera. I also saw the kodak DCS
Pro 14n and the Canon 1Ds, but the pictures presented from those
camera's were quite disappointing compared to the sigma.
Until yesterday I wanted to buy the fuji S2, but now I decided to
wait.
Unfortunately this camera is expected in europe in december -
january 2003. Also there is only 1 flashlight that will be
developed for this camera, and that one will also be available at
the end of this year.

greetings from Cologne.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I notice about five or six of you keep saying that only people with consumer digicams think the Foveon is way better than any Bayer sensor on a per-pixel basis. However, I see a number of Canon 1D and D60 owners agreeing.

Just because someone uses a consumer digicam doesn't mean he or she can't recognise quality. Nor that they are in some way an inferior photographer.

--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work
 
There are so many "FOVEANS" in this thread...
What happened to "FOVEON"? :)
Matthew Cromer said:
I came into PhotoKina convinced that Foveon was a lot of hot air
and that what I wanted was the new 14MP Kodak or an 11MP Canon.

The stunning realism and fine color detail of the SD9 with good
lenses has just floored me. I don't know if I will pick up the SD9
or wait for a higher resolution Foveon camera, but I do know what
my Sony F707 is the last Bayer interpolation camera I will be
purchasing.
--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work
Click to expand...
 
I'm not about to upgrade my camera after 3 months, but I suspect that the X3 chip has a very bright future and may/should become widely licensed and adopted. Imaging what they could do with a few years to develop this baby.

Of course things can still go wrong - they must sell a few a attract some more investment but this should not be too much of a problem.

If it finds its way into a $1000 cam (SLR, 4/3 or fixed lens) then I will be there with my credit card in June 2004!

Steve
Matthew Cromer said:
I came into PhotoKina convinced that Foveon was a lot of hot air
and that what I wanted was the new 14MP Kodak or an 11MP Canon.

The stunning realism and fine color detail of the SD9 with good
lenses has just floored me. I don't know if I will pick up the SD9
or wait for a higher resolution Foveon camera, but I do know what
my Sony F707 is the last Bayer interpolation camera I will be
purchasing.
--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work
Click to expand...
 
That's ad hominem, but thanks anyway. I'm sorry if you took my remark to mean that consumer digicam owners don't understand quality (I am in that category too), but I cannot agree with the idea expressed by many here that the arrival of the SD9 somehow makes other DSLRs less than quality. It's a credit to Foveon that the 3 megapixel sensor can stand up to is 6 mp brethren (although we have not seen actual tests yet - it's excellent, but IMO so is the D60 or S2), but so far it's not head and shoulders above the Canon D60 et al. in image quality, and Canon has a number of advantages including much wider lens compatibility and low light strengths, so if the price is right, I just don't see why the D60 (or similar) won't be good enough now that the Foveon is on the horizon.
--
Misha
 
Hi all,

I've been reading a lot about pros and cons of Foveon tecnique and Sigma SD9 digicam; as most among us, i am also looking for a new digicam to buy within a short period.

Ofcourse it's always best to wait and wait, wait....... but let's face it, waiting for the perfect camera will take forever.

I dig the quality of the SD9, as i said earlier, but how about other -important- things, like buffersize, shutter-lag, AF speed, battery-drain, hi-iso pics(noise?).

Have been to PK -Sigma stand- and the SD9 felt good, pics were fabulous but i haven't seen ACTION photography in their SD9 A3 portfolio....
On purpose or????

So before we cry about "bad" other type CCD's (wich to me are proof of quality, D1x, D100, 1D, 1Ds) anybody have more specific details about these issues?

And yes, i took a SD9 leaflet at the stand but the specs don't mention the intersting items.

The internet has not shown me the proof either, so i'm getting less enthousiast as i think things over....

Greetzz

Harry
*isteve said:
Matthew Cromer said:
I came into PhotoKina convinced that Foveon was a lot of hot air
and that what I wanted was the new 14MP Kodak or an 11MP Canon.

The stunning realism and fine color detail of the SD9 with good
lenses has just floored me. I don't know if I will pick up the SD9
or wait for a higher resolution Foveon camera, but I do know what
my Sony F707 is the last Bayer interpolation camera I will be
purchasing.
--
my favorite work: http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/favorite_work
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hi Misha

You are actually discussing three separate topics.

1. Is the Foveon 3.5 MP chip as good or better then existing 6MP bayer chips?

The answer, at least from my tests, is a resounding yes. Much better, not even in the same ball park.

2. Should owners of existing DSLR's toss their camera's? Absolutely not. I love my D1x and it takes astounding images compared to my previous digicams. I hope to keep it for quite a while, even if it is relegated to back-up camera.

3. How good is this implementation of the Foveon technology? In other words, as others have posted, is this a good camera? It's just fine if you have a superior sensor but useless if the camera can't make good use of this sensor.

So I've gone from being mildly sceptical to enthusiastic over the Foveon sensor, I still know very little about this camera.

Dave
misha said:
That's ad hominem, but thanks anyway. I'm sorry if you took my
remark to mean that consumer digicam owners don't understand
quality (I am in that category too), but I cannot agree with the
idea expressed by many here that the arrival of the SD9 somehow
makes other DSLRs less than quality. It's a credit to Foveon that
the 3 megapixel sensor can stand up to is 6 mp brethren (although
we have not seen actual tests yet - it's excellent, but IMO so is
the D60 or S2), but so far it's not head and shoulders above the
Canon D60 et al. in image quality, and Canon has a number of
advantages including much wider lens compatibility and low light
strengths, so if the price is right, I just don't see why the D60
(or similar) won't be good enough now that the Foveon is on the
horizon.
--
Misha
Click to expand...
 
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