DNG vs RAW

Your camera's RAW files, and almost every other's, has OEM proprietary data that they reserve for use in their own processors. Although Adobe has allowed for "maker notes" in the DNG, a place in the file where the OEM can put this data, the major OEMs don't use most of it and still keep some data as "secret sauce" unavailable to the DNG conversion.

Why they do this I don't understand. Neither do I understand why the camera manufacturers refuse to add a DNG file shooting option. Again, the OEMs say they need to keep some data proprietary, yet Adobe allows them to do so in the DNG.
Am I missing something here? My K20D shoots DNG, which I use because I use PSE 6 for most of my post processing. It won't accept PEF files from the K20D. I had a hard disk crash last year that seemed to cut off an addition I had that would open the PEFs in PSE 6, but, soon, I'll be picking up PSE 8. Or PSE 9, depending on Adobe's scheduling.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
Yes, there are a few cameras that do have the option of shooting DNG. Sorry for the oversight. It's a very short list, though... Pentax, Leica, who else?
About 41 camera models (some no longer sold) from about 15 manufacturers can write DNG in-camera. They even include a 3D movie camera!

Camera models that write DNG are launched at a higher rate than models that write any single other format. Higher than NEF. Higher than CR2. Higher than ORF. I believe there have been 5 launched this year, 3 within the last 3 weeks.

http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/products_cameras.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_negative#Timeline

It is the raw image format of choice for niche manufacturers. It is used as the only raw image format by some minority manufacturers. Only Pentax offer a choice of their own raw image format or DNG. No manufacturers with a large market share support DNG.
 
Good to hear from you again Barry, and it's very encouraging to hear that more cameras are adding DNG. It's a good point about the niche cameras- I think that the DNG format does save a lot of development costs, and, as we've seen with Leica, allows the manufacturer to source out the processing to others. (Phase One, for example.)

Your point on market share is well taken... from what I've read, 7% market share is about right, for DNG supported cameras.
http://www.h2hreviews.com/blog/DSLR-Market-Share-story.html

It's baffling why Canon and Nikon, as well as Olympus and Sony (although Sony has a long history of proprietary philosophy, right to the current proprietary flash shoe they sport on their current DSLRs...) don't offer DNG as an added feature bonus. Some of the (MUCH more expensive to develop) features they do add I'd gladly forfeit for a DNG shooting option.

--
Ted Dillard
Managing Editor, Head-2-Head Reviews http://www.h2hreviews.com
Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support- http://www.teddillard.com
 
Untill DNG is accepted across the board as a standard (not just by adobe) I will keep my files in their native format.

If the industry as a whole embraces DNG....then I will be happy to convert.

Roman
--
Warning....Follow my advice at your own risk.
I dont know my aperture from a hole in the ground.

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 
Untill DNG is accepted across the board as a standard (not just by adobe) I will keep my files in their native format.
It is currently being used by ISO in its revision of ISO 12234-2 (TIFF/EP). Sooner or later it is likely that profile 2 of the revised ISO 12234-2 will be based on DNG v1.3 and have the extension "DNG". (Adobe offered it to ISO a year or two ago).

I can't find the timeframe for this. ISO standards move slowly.
If the industry as a whole embraces DNG....then I will be happy to convert.
Even if/when it is standardised, I doubt if Canon or (especially) Nikon will use it in-camera. I can imagine them (at least Canon) providing software to convert to DNG. But I fear you won't see "the industry as a whole" embrace it in the foreseeable future. It will continue to be necessary for people to evaluate it according to their own circumstances.
 
Hey

Right now I am converting all my RAW-files (crw, cr2) to DNG-files... and I wonder what reason I might have to keep the RAW-files?

I intend to use the DNG-files in my workflow and keep a backup of them.

I like the fact that DNG-files don't have any loose XMP-files and that they tend to be smaller in size.

So, will I ever need my original crw and cr2 files?

Regards
Jonas
--
Ray
RJNedimyer
 
Interesting I did not decide to post yet and Edit is not available.

As I understand Adobe allows all to use without cost; but retains the copyrights and does not state that version #2B will be free.

Thus as windows and mac progress you may have to keep a 1 or 2 decade old computer with the original versions on it to gain access to your old DNG files.

Adobe does not seem to like to keep anything that can produce a good profit at free, low or reasonable pricing. So, perhaps about 2015 they will decide it will cost you $100 to $300 to use your 2008 photos.

It is just as possible the current Officers are being entirely truthful and over time be ousted from their positions either from business politics or retirement and the above happens.

A third possibility is Adobe finds in the future the project is of little value to them and simply fails to update it to handle future files or operating systems.

Interestingly each camera manufacture could do the same.

Perhaps the best idea is to keep 2+ off site back ups and 2+ on site back ups. One each RAW and 1 each DNG.

Sorry, to be such a skeptic but I have been burned by changing file types and free to expensive before.
 
Sorry, to be such a skeptic but I have been burned by changing file types and free to expensive before.
Adobe have submitted DNG to ISO. ISO are currently using it in their revision of ISO 12234-2 (TIFF/EP).

Until then, DNG has the same status as TIFF: a free-to-use file format owned by Adobe. How many here avoid TIFF in case Adobe charges for it in future?

Adobe has published a license giving everyone rights to exploit DNG.

Now ....

How many such things can be said about NEF, CR2, ORF, .....?

Aren't people worried?
 
I would ask why are you bothering to convert to DNG. As you must admit, converting to anything cannot add more info. Therefore by default it can only lose info. Since i reckon RAW will still be a around in twenty years and not everyone uses DNG, then why bother with it?
Jules
Hey

Right now I am converting all my RAW-files (crw, cr2) to DNG-files... and I wonder what reason I might have to keep the RAW-files?
 
I would ask why are you bothering to convert to DNG. As you must admit, converting to anything cannot add more info.
Typically, a DNG file contains more information than the file it was converted from. The reason is simple - it is added by the DNG Converter. This is described in more detail here:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/profiles.htm#embedded

Reasons for converting to DNG vary. As I have said many times: "Whether particular photographers can get any benefit from DNG depends on their workflow and the tools they use. (The situation gradually improves over time). Not everyone can get immediate benefit yet, or enough benefit to counter any perceived disadvantages. So any photographer who sees no current personal benefit in using DNG, and assumes therefore that there are no benefits to any other photographers, is wrong!"
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/benefits.htm
 
I don't see any value in converting Canon RAW files to DNG, in fact I won't do it as there is uncertainty in what is lost in the process, and compatibility issues with editing programs beyond those offered by Adobe. HDD storage is inexpensive, I don't mind the sidecar files, so it's not worth the extra time to convert files.

There's a recent long thread on this topic, one that raises points both in favor and opposed to conversion. If anything, it failed to convince me of a compelling reason for the conversion of the files I produce.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=34540534

Best regards,
Doug
 
I see, the extra information is about the camera. Not very useful for me at all. I know what camera i used and am not very interested in that or the aperture/shutter speed/ISO etc. I can safely say that since digital started and the thousands of images i have shot, i have looked at the EXIF dat proabably a dozen times. Just as i didn't need it with film, I don't need it now. I think it is highly overated.
Jules
I would ask why are you bothering to convert to DNG. As you must admit, converting to anything cannot add more info.
Typically, a DNG file contains more information than the file it was converted from. The reason is simple - it is added by the DNG Converter. This is described in more detail here:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/profiles.htm#embedded

Reasons for converting to DNG vary. As I have said many times: "Whether particular photographers can get any benefit from DNG depends on their workflow and the tools they use. (The situation gradually improves over time). Not everyone can get immediate benefit yet, or enough benefit to counter any perceived disadvantages. So any photographer who sees no current personal benefit in using DNG, and assumes therefore that there are no benefits to any other photographers, is wrong!"
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/benefits.htm
--
Lady Gaga can't hold a pen properly.
 
Jules, the camera/lens information isn't for you, particularly, it's for use by the processor. Lens information, in particular, is becoming very helpful in RAW file processing- characterizing colors, aberration, etc. Hasselblad, for example, and others have pretty extensive firmware in the lens itself, with this information. (As far as I'm aware, that data does not make it into Hasselblad's DNG format files, though, maybe Barry knows for sure...

--
Ted Dillard
Managing Editor, Head-2-Head Reviews http://www.h2hreviews.com
Smart Object Evangelist and digital photo support- http://www.teddillard.com
 
Perhaps I am wrong, but I was under the impression that DNG was just a standard wrapper format that could contain one of many different types of image data.

In other words, there is no single "DNG" format data. Rather, DNG is standard way of packing the camera's raw data. There are different DNG formats for various classes of cameras, and they add extensions to DNG to support new technologies.

The raw data off a Bayer format sensor is certainly different than the raw data from a Foveon sensor. Sensors which have different pixel arrangements (i.e. 45° angle) will have yet another variation of raw data.

Further, each model camera has specific characteristics which must be taken into account when interpreting the raw data (what are the exact colors that are sensed at each pixel, what is the sensor's response curve).

My understanding is that a conversion to DNG involves finding the closest internal DNG data format that matches the camera, converting the data, and adding camera specific data to describe the camera.

I see a number of possible problems with using DNG for long term archiving.
  1. 1) There is a possibility that third party DNG software may not understand all DNG files. Perhaps the software developer felt it wasn't worth supporting Foveon, or other non-bayer format cameras.
  1. 2) DNG converters tend not to have the same level of camera specific knowledge. Canon's raw converter has a table of how various Canon lenses vignette on various Canon bodies. When converting from Raw, Canon's software can automatically compensate for lens vignetting. I don't think the economics are there for anyone else to implement this in a DNG converter. By using DNG you lose this ability.
  1. 3) As part of their marketing, Canon has to maintain support for all of their Raw files (even those from the original 3MP D30). Software companies have a history of abandoning old formats. I have old Microsoft word files that the current version of word does not recognize. I have Adobe fonts that Adobe no longer supports (and Adobe does NOT provide a utility to convert to their new format). I would expect keeping your files in the original Raw format makes it MORE likely that you will be able to open them in the future.
  1. 4) DNG may never catch on to be as popular as Adobe hopes, and they may abandon the format for something newer. (I have web sites developed in both Adobe GoLive, and Adobe Pagemill, neither of which are supported any more).
Of course, these are just my opinions based on my limited understanding of the situation. If I have made any incorrect assumptions, I hope someone corrects me.
 
Jules, the camera/lens information isn't for you, particularly, it's for use by the processor. Lens information, in particular, is becoming very helpful in RAW file processing- characterizing colors, aberration, etc. Hasselblad, for example, and others have pretty extensive firmware in the lens itself, with this information. (As far as I'm aware, that data does not make it into Hasselblad's DNG format files, though, maybe Barry knows for sure...
I don't know. They have the opportunity to store it in DNGPrivateData, but I haven't checked to see if they do.
 
Perhaps I am wrong, but I was under the impression that DNG was just a standard wrapper format that could contain one of many different types of image data.
So is NEF! (In fact, DNG is rather like NEF but with a lot more metadata. I could have used other examples, but in fact DNG is closer to NEF than some of the others).
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/raw.htm#contents
In other words, there is no single "DNG" format data. Rather, DNG is standard way of packing the camera's raw data. There are different DNG formats for various classes of cameras, and they add extensions to DNG to support new technologies.
DNG has 2 main sorts of data. Image data, and metadata. The latter describes the camera/sensor configuration. So the metadata identifies the width and height of the sensor in pixels. It identifies the order of the R G & B filters of the CFA. It identifies whether the pixels are square, and if not what the ratio is. etc. A difference with DNG is other formats also allow variations, but they don't always say so in the file, so software has to be updated when the camera is launched.

Here are examples. Note they include the non-square pixels of the D1X:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/innovation.htm#examples
The raw data off a Bayer format sensor is certainly different than the raw data from a Foveon sensor. Sensors which have different pixel arrangements (i.e. 45° angle) will have yet another variation of raw data.
Foveon is a special case. DNG can't handle it properly because it would mean publishing Foveon's private design details:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/specification.htm#x3f

Fujifilm SuperCCD sensors have extra metadata in DNG:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/specification.htm#fujifilm
Further, each model camera has specific characteristics which must be taken into account when interpreting the raw data (what are the exact colors that are sensed at each pixel, what is the sensor's response curve).
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/innovation.htm#examples
My understanding is that a conversion to DNG involves finding the closest internal DNG data format that matches the camera, converting the data, and adding camera specific data to describe the camera.
I don't understand what you mean by "closest internal DNG data format that matches the camera". The words suggest that you think DNG is something different from what it is.
I see a number of possible problems with using DNG for long term archiving.
  1. 1) There is a possibility that third party DNG software may not understand all DNG files. Perhaps the software developer felt it wasn't worth supporting Foveon, or other non-bayer format cameras.
True. This improves with time. But, of course, it is often the case that those packages didn't accept the native raw image files for those cameras either.
  1. 2) DNG converters tend not to have the same level of camera specific knowledge. Canon's raw converter has a table of how various Canon lenses vignette on various Canon bodies. When converting from Raw, Canon's software can automatically compensate for lens vignetting. I don't think the economics are there for anyone else to implement this in a DNG converter. By using DNG you lose this ability.
If Lightroom and ACR can handle it, typically DNG can. (v1.3 of DNG added a lot for lens corrections). But - you are right; manufacturers can store information that only their own software can handle, so if you want those features, you can't use DNG. (Adobe calls this "secret sauce").
  1. 3) As part of their marketing, Canon has to maintain support for all of their Raw files .... I would expect keeping your files in the original Raw format makes it MORE likely that you will be able to open them in the future.
But will this be with your future choice of software? The problem arises if future products have to build in profiles for today's cameras. How will they do that? DNG holds lots more metadata specifically to help with that future problem.
  1. 4) DNG may never catch on to be as popular as Adobe hopes, and they may abandon the format for something newer.
Adobe have submitted DNG to ISO, who are using it in their revision of ISO 12234-2. Sooner or later it will probably become an ISO standard. (A bit like PDF used to be an Adobe format, but is now an ISO standard: ISO 32000-1).
 
I would ask why are you bothering to convert to DNG. As you must admit, converting to anything cannot add more info. Therefore by default it can only lose info. Since i reckon RAW will still be a around in twenty years and not everyone uses DNG, then why bother with it?
My point exactly... And since storage IS cheap it makes no sense to ME to convert to ANYTHING unless my customers/clients need a particular file type.
 

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