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Would you buy the SD9?

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Stephen Waits said:
Whao hooooaa..

Wow buddy.. I'm 30 and well, umm, I don't need to brag about my
salary or my job. BTW, people don't get rich by blasting cash
around.. Go read the "Millionaire Next Door".

Anyway, this isn't a money issue and it's not about you or me
personally. And thanks again for signing up for the Beta test. I
may be bidding on your Canon lenses on eBay.

--Steve
Click to expand...
Man, I wasn't bragging about any thing. I was called "sucker" buy somebody, because I went for something I love and something better.

People think differently!

Wangler

--
Darkness is made up of dark particles.
 
Caterpillar said:
Switching to foveon for many companies may not be that
straighforwarded, much less easy. It would be easy to say that it
is a matter of signing a contract with foveon to supply them the
chips. But, I know for a fact, that most of these companies,
especially Kodak and Canon have a Technology strategy that looks at
5-15 years ahead. And they have to bet on these technologies
otherwise they will be doomed, as in the case of Polaroid, which
persisted solely on their analogue technologies.
Click to expand...
Companies need to be flexible, thinking machines. They cannot
simply look at things today and decide that is what they will do
for the next 15 years. Especially with technology products.

And I wonder too if I am alone in wanting my next camera to
be a Foveon camera. That is to say, perhaps there is strong
"consumer sentiment" building up behind Foveon.

I would prefer to buy a Foveon camera from Nikon or Canon,
but if they refuse to build a camera with Foveon, then I
would easily purchase some other company's product.

In summary, if Nikon and Canon want to continue blindly
driving down the same road, and not make any turns that
aren't already anticipated in their 15 year technology strategy,
fine. But that might be a major mistake.
 
Caterpillar said:
If they do, I just hope that Foveon's contract with Sigma does not
have a 2 year exclusivity clause!
Click to expand...
This has been mentioned numerous times during the last 8 months,
but I have still not yet ever seen, even once, any solid basis at
all for the rumour.

And the people at Foveon have flatly denied it. Look on their
Web site.
 
Yes, and I will.
.Ray (UK) said:
I was somewhat excited few months ago when the X3 chip and SD9 was
annouced, especially after seeing the initial sample pictures, how
noise free they were. Anyway, now I know bit more about the camera
and having seen some pre-production shots, I'm not so excited. Why?

The main drawback as pointed out by many posters in the last few
months is the Sigma lens system, or more precisely, being locked to
the Sigma mount lenses.

What do you think, just for argument sake, you liked the pictures,
you like the price, but considering the costs of lenses, would you
be willing to be locked into to the Sigma mount? Is it worth
saving a few hundred now but limit you choice of cameras and lenses
in the future? Of course, you can sell the camera and Sigma mount
lenses in the future, but that'll cost you even more on
depreciation than you would save now.

.Ray
Click to expand...
--
Carl Rytterfalk
http://www.pbase.com/rytterfalk
 
Caterpillar said:
You got it, TED. You said it better than I did. The others will
just try to bury foveon with their marketing.
Click to expand...
"the others" may include Nikon in Canon, but if some other
companies come out with a Foveon camera that provides
equal or better images at a cheaper price, and consumers
can easily see this by looking at the images and the price
tag, then it seems unlikely that even a mountain of marketing
would help to hide those 2 simple truths.

Especially if you have guys like Phil Askey running around and
pointing at the Foveon camera and shouting, "this camera
provides equal or better images at a cheaper price !".

And I don't just mean Sigma. There are plenty of other companies
that could "break ranks" and switch over to Foveon, besides
Nikon and Canon.

Look where we are already with Sigma, a company I had never even
heard of before last February. Imagine if Leica or somebody came
out with a 2nd Foveon camera.
 
Don't know if I'd buy the first version (I want a full frame sensor for wide angle shots) but I'm definately excited by Phil's new samples. There is a 3d vivid quality there that I've not seen in a digital image from a camera or scanner. There is a noise issue but some of Phil's shots show no noise at all. I think it's just a matter of working out the kinks. I hope they come up with a full frame sensor soon. Not only would I buy one (a full frame sensor version) I'm going to try to invest in foveon and national semiconducter. I really do think their technology is the wave of the digital imaging future. If nothing else they are definately going to push Canon, Nikon, Fuji, etc into making better sensors.
Paul
.Ray (UK) said:
I was somewhat excited few months ago when the X3 chip and SD9 was
annouced, especially after seeing the initial sample pictures, how
noise free they were. Anyway, now I know bit more about the camera
and having seen some pre-production shots, I'm not so excited. Why?

The main drawback as pointed out by many posters in the last few
months is the Sigma lens system, or more precisely, being locked to
the Sigma mount lenses.

What do you think, just for argument sake, you liked the pictures,
you like the price, but considering the costs of lenses, would you
be willing to be locked into to the Sigma mount? Is it worth
saving a few hundred now but limit you choice of cameras and lenses
in the future? Of course, you can sell the camera and Sigma mount
lenses in the future, but that'll cost you even more on
depreciation than you would save now.

.Ray
Click to expand...
 
I have thought of adding an SD-9 to my EOS collection. (I decided against it) But I can tell you there is no way I would just dump my EF for SA, I mean the camera is not even shipping yet.

You are making decent money, surely it would not have been a stretch to add the $2500 it would have cost for a SD-9 and an EX lens. So why the complete shift to SA? I could see a shift to Nikon for the 14n. But dumping a Canon or Nikon system for the limited SA system, sorry that seems like lunacy to me. Canon and Nikon are pretty close to parity on their lens system, but Sigma is decidedly not there yet (not even very close, when you compare width and depth of lens offerings).

I am not attacking you or your decision, I am just baffled by it.
Wangler said:
Stephen Waits said:
Whao hooooaa..

Wow buddy.. I'm 30 and well, umm, I don't need to brag about my
salary or my job. BTW, people don't get rich by blasting cash
around.. Go read the "Millionaire Next Door".

Anyway, this isn't a money issue and it's not about you or me
personally. And thanks again for signing up for the Beta test. I
may be bidding on your Canon lenses on eBay.

--Steve
Click to expand...
Man, I wasn't bragging about any thing. I was called "sucker" buy
somebody, because I went for something I love and something better.

People think differently!

Wangler

--
Darkness is made up of dark particles.
Click to expand...
--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
 
BobTrips said:
Realistically, most people will get used to not having a shallow
DOF and will not miss it.
Click to expand...
I had a similar discussion with a photographer friend recently. Of course he was arguing in favor of film for the standard reasons. My arguement went something like this... The current generation of children will more than likely never own a film camera, so they will never miss the quality of film.

The same holds true for narrow DOF, the P&S units that people are running around with today don't have anything close to the narrow DOF you can get with a film camera or a DSLR. So they will never miss it, since they never had it.

It will be a shame to see it go, I really like it for some uses.

As for a D7 type camera having the image quality of a D60, I think it may happen sometime in the future (assuming it is possible, I don't know). Technology always move forward. But think what a D60 type camera could do with the same level of improvement. It would be great for everyone.
--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
 
I think you will find everyone except Sony and Canon interested in this sensor. The yields will be better for sure and I'd bet dollars to donuts that Foveon and Nat Semi are working on others. Let's face it the grandfather of the microchip and one of the biggest chip makers have stepped into the arena of digital cameras. Its a sure way for those other than Canon and Sony to gain market share. This way they can go back to selling cameras (and lenses) and avoid battling bits and bites. We the consumers will win big time but it will be a while and I hope Foveon does not go the way of the Sony Beta.
Regards
Ted
Caterpillar said:
.Ray (UK) said:
I wonder if Foveon will eventually license the 3 semi-tranparant
layers technique to other chip makers so everyone benefits. eg, so
Canon can then use that technique to complement their existing cmos
designs.

.Ray
Click to expand...
A very interesting point .Ray. I've thought about that too, but I
am glad you pointed this out because of the following points. Look
at it from Foveon standpoint: you have invented a chip that will
revolutionize the imaging world, now wouldn't you have thought of
approaching all the major players for them to use your chip? And
after some year or so, you have no takers. And the sole company
that does it has glass making as its sole competency (which other
in the fora have doubts about its quality). Why Sigma? Most
probably it is because their R&D is focused on

So, why didn't the others bite? It's because they have already
their R&D and manufacturing all set up for their technology. The
foveon will just mess it up. And like what Jason has said, in
effect, they have nothing to lose. No need to design the chip, just
the body (which they know a bit off because they have one),
software, and other collateral technologies and voila! - their
foveon based DC!

And look at how long it took Sigma to come out of the starting
blocks! Some even started to doubt if all this was vaporware!

Guess, what? You think that Foveon is stopping at DCs? You can bet
they have approached JVC, Sharp, etc. You see, the foveon is not
just for digicams. It can be used also for videocams!

And yet. No takers! Or are there? -- silently doing R&D with the chip?

--
  • Caterpillar
Click to expand...
 
Foveon would be crazy to do such a thing. Two years in the chip business is a very long time!!!!!
Regards
Ted
tim martin said:
Caterpillar said:
If they do, I just hope that Foveon's contract with Sigma does not
have a 2 year exclusivity clause!
Click to expand...
This has been mentioned numerous times during the last 8 months,
but I have still not yet ever seen, even once, any solid basis at
all for the rumour.

And the people at Foveon have flatly denied it. Look on their
Web site.
Click to expand...
 
I wondered when someone would remember this. I find that the little kodak 5000 i have takes more accurate color than any of my other cameras including D30. If they could continue this with a reasonable price dsr I would sure be interested in it.
 
.Ray (UK) said:
I was somewhat excited few months ago when the X3 chip and SD9 was
annouced, especially after seeing the initial sample pictures, how
noise free they were. Anyway, now I know bit more about the camera
and having seen some pre-production shots, I'm not so excited. Why?

The main drawback as pointed out by many posters in the last few
months is the Sigma lens system, or more precisely, being locked to
the Sigma mount lenses.

What do you think, just for argument sake, you liked the pictures,
you like the price, but considering the costs of lenses, would you
be willing to be locked into to the Sigma mount? Is it worth
saving a few hundred now but limit you choice of cameras and lenses
in the future? Of course, you can sell the camera and Sigma mount
lenses in the future, but that'll cost you even more on
depreciation than you would save now.

.Ray
Click to expand...
If Phil and others give the camera a good review I'll get one. We aready know form the samples, the X3 sensor produces great images. If the camera itself is any good...I'm sold. I already put my name on the "I want one" list at my local camera dealer on Friday (if the review sucks, I can always get an S2)

The limitations of the camera are not an issue for me since I'm shooting indoors with strobes 95% of the time.

Mike (a.k.a. ImageGuy)
--
Beer and cheezy poofs...Mmm, good!
 
Valliesto Bailey said:
I have thought of adding an SD-9 to my EOS collection. (I decided
against it) But I can tell you there is no way I would just dump my
EF for SA, I mean the camera is not even shipping yet.

You are making decent money, surely it would not have been a
stretch to add the $2500 it would have cost for a SD-9 and an EX
lens. So why the complete shift to SA? I could see a shift to Nikon
for the 14n. But dumping a Canon or Nikon system for the limited SA
system, sorry that seems like lunacy to me. Canon and Nikon are
pretty close to parity on their lens system, but Sigma is decidedly
not there yet (not even very close, when you compare width and
depth of lens offerings).

I am not attacking you or your decision, I am just baffled by it.

--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
Click to expand...
Your comment makes great sense. I haven't decided on kodak or sigma yet, but definitely don't like Canon anymore. Why? I see no reason for Canon to utilize the X3 in the near future. For Nikon, there is possibility there. I have experience on retouching thousands of picture out of D30 and D60. The sad truth is that after looking at the samples from sigma, I almost feel sorry to see those old pictures in 100% scale. I still have a small minolta system and a film scanner, that should be able to satisfy me for a while.

I am not dumping EOS for sigma, but for Foven X3 and new technology. I've got your point though. Thanks a lot.

--
Darkness is made up of dark particles.
 
Just one time purchase of the body and two lenses, the 20-40 mm (34 - 72 eq.) abd, perhaps, one prime for portraits. Being digital photography as it is, I expect this field to evolve so dramatically in the coming years that I don't consider any glass line (either Canon's, Nikon's or anybodyelse's) as an investment for the future. In fact, I believe that a new format, smaller and thought "digiital" from the scratch, would be the winner.

35 mm. film format, bodies and lenses are a thing of the past and a transition technology, a bridge to digital while manufacturers develop new glasses and sensors, which don't need to be as big as 24 mm. X 36 mm.

Of course, I expect the SD9 to drop in price in one year time.

Amando.
.Ray (UK) said:
I was somewhat excited few months ago when the X3 chip and SD9 was
annouced, especially after seeing the initial sample pictures, how
noise free they were. Anyway, now I know bit more about the camera
and having seen some pre-production shots, I'm not so excited. Why?

The main drawback as pointed out by many posters in the last few
months is the Sigma lens system, or more precisely, being locked to
the Sigma mount lenses.

What do you think, just for argument sake, you liked the pictures,
you like the price, but considering the costs of lenses, would you
be willing to be locked into to the Sigma mount? Is it worth
saving a few hundred now but limit you choice of cameras and lenses
in the future? Of course, you can sell the camera and Sigma mount
lenses in the future, but that'll cost you even more on
depreciation than you would save now.

.Ray
Click to expand...
--
Amando Hernández
Imagenlibre
http://www.tecnival.com/imagenlibre
 
Wangler said:
Valliesto Bailey said:
I have thought of adding an SD-9 to my EOS collection. (I decided
against it) But I can tell you there is no way I would just dump my
EF for SA, I mean the camera is not even shipping yet.

You are making decent money, surely it would not have been a
stretch to add the $2500 it would have cost for a SD-9 and an EX
lens. So why the complete shift to SA? I could see a shift to Nikon
for the 14n. But dumping a Canon or Nikon system for the limited SA
system, sorry that seems like lunacy to me. Canon and Nikon are
pretty close to parity on their lens system, but Sigma is decidedly
not there yet (not even very close, when you compare width and
depth of lens offerings).

I am not attacking you or your decision, I am just baffled by it.

--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
Click to expand...
Your comment makes great sense. I haven't decided on kodak or sigma
yet, but definitely don't like Canon anymore. Why? I see no reason
for Canon to utilize the X3 in the near future. For Nikon, there is
possibility there. I have experience on retouching thousands of
picture out of D30 and D60. The sad truth is that after looking at
the samples from sigma, I almost feel sorry to see those old
pictures in 100% scale. I still have a small minolta system and a
film scanner, that should be able to satisfy me for a while.

I am not dumping EOS for sigma, but for Foven X3 and new
technology. I've got your point though. Thanks a lot.

--
Darkness is made up of dark particles.
Click to expand...
I think you are right about Canon and the X3, they have little reason to aquire the technology from Foveon. I think Canon and Kodak are capable of developing a similar technology on their own (I wonder why they have not yet?).

Nikon is in a tighter spot, since they do not design their own sensors. I would say that the possiblilty is greater for Nikon, but still unlikely. If Nikon were to aquire an X3 type imager you would see the others move to similar technology as well. Sigma has a monopoly on it now, because it is unproven and Sigma can take the risk for the possible reward.

Good luck with which ever system you buy in to.

--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
 
Ken, of course in 2 years a 6mp foveon D9i will be as far behind the next generation D60 as the D7i is now - but it will be more than good enough for me.

But I totally disagree that a smaller camera cannot reproduce the quality of a D60. The D60 chip is about 2/3 the area of a 35mm negative so they could have reduced the size of the camera by 30% and get the same quality - it was just cheaper to use an existing SLR body.

The D7 chassis could easily be adapted to take a 4/3 sensor which is about the same size as the current D60 and X3 chips - slightly smaller but not so much to adversely affect quality or receptor pitch.

Either way a pro-sumer cam in 2 years will be as good or better than the best 35mm pro-processed film camera, and should hit around the $500-$800 price point. I can wait, and for me this will be more than good enough for prints up to 20". If I was a pro I would doubtless have different opinions but I know my limitations and budget accordingly :)

Steve
Ken Phillips said:
Steve Jacob said:
Firstly I do not want a huge bulky SLR system with a pointless
mirror and 25 lenses. A 4/3 camera? Quite possibly. A good fixed
mount prosumer with decent zoom range and an X3 sensor? Definately.
I do not want a cam bigger than a D7i, period. In 2 years they will
be where the D60 is now or better. Good enough for me.

Secondly Foveon is supposedly cheaper to manufacture. Now that it
has proved capable enough to at least worry Canon a bit, there will
either be a price war or general adoption. Either way the price
will come down.

I bought a D7i 4 months ago and it will keep for 2 years. It
produces very acceptable 10" prints and in 2 years I quite expect
the price point of "amatuer" DSLRs to be closer to current film SLR
prices, eg $600 for a body. By that time should be a Minolta D9i
with a 4/3 foveon 6MP chip and 2 lenses for, oh, $500 that would
give a D1s a run for its money.

I'm not a pro, just a humble hobbyist eagerly looking forward to
the price war, so to all those of you at the bleeding edge, happy
beta testing guys and thanks for funding the revolution....
--
Steve
Click to expand...
--
All kinds of old camera and motion picture bodies, lenses, tripods,
enlargers, mostly gathering dust, because digital is immediate! NO
Canon 1200mm f/5.6.
Click to expand...
 
Maybe if Sigma made digital specific wide angle lenses for the SD-9 that werent' huge and ridiculously expensive.

In other words, I don't wanna buy a 14mm lens to get general wide angle.
 
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