The E3 replacement and its competitors

The E-3 looked, felt and behaved similar to its direct competitors (especially the D200/300). Olympus does not have much in its favor when competing within the lines drawn by its competitors, and I'm sure they understand it. Last year there were rumors about an E-3II which was supposed to be an E-3 with E-30 interior. I am delighted that no such model appeared.

The E-3 successor should be special. I am hoping for a mirrorless camera which will support phase difference AF and be equipped with new sensor technology. Where high ISO performance and DR matter most, 4/3 is unlikely to beat APS-C by mere processing algorithms. A new light gathering design is needed.
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The current Canon and Nikon E3 competitors have better AF then the E3 and it will be further improved in their replacements.

I think that Olympus sees the days of PDAF coming to an end as CDAF improves and takes over.

Coupled with EVF it will probably dominate the entry level in a couple of years.

At the high end PDAF and large OVF will continue to have advantages but how many high end cameras will Olympus sell? Certainly a lot less than Canon or Nikon.

Is it worth Olympus's while investing heavily to improve PDAF if it will only be used in their slow selling high end models? Canon and Nikon sell far more of these cameras and are already a couple of years ahead in PDAF technology.

Even if Olympus improves the PDAF it won't be as good as its competitors.

Olympus could produce another large "pro" body with improved sensor and electronics but it will only be of interest to the Oly faithfull. If I were in the market for this type of camera I would probably more to Canikon for the better AF.

If Olympus want to sell the E5 they need to offer a special feature that compensates for its AF weakness.

Some would say Olympus lenses are this special feature but I don't think this is enough. Others, myself included, hope for a compact size. Maybe Olympus have some breakthrough technology that will do the trick. Who knows? I certainly don't.

We will find out in due course.

Regards,

Peter
'Keep taking the photos'
 
I can't help thinking that many of you here are more loyal to Olympus than to yourselves. Now you make a list of existing high-end cameras that you would like to own (and use right now I suppose).

Yet you are willing to sit down and wait for Olympus to create this camera, and Olympus gives you nothing, no positive indication (on the opposite it seems) that they will ever make a single camera that will use the full potential of your precious Zuikos.

I Don't get it. If you need more (or less) than E-3, go get it now. Things will probably not change. Olympus is the same tomorrow - like any other brand is. The next flagship will be behind competition on the benchmarks (and a lot of you will (then) say it's more than enough for you - ever) but will have a very unique (approaching strange) feature or two (a camera made for heavy rain and lots of light is unique I think. A rugged pro camera with a small sensible flipscreen...).

Explain this kind of loyalty.
 
Donald, I'm with you on that mock up only with a larger LCD... It can be built at a reasonable price, $2000 - $2200 maybe.

Like others my grip rarely comes off my E-3 and I almost never need the on board flash, cause there are other ways around remote lighting. How about a true RC type flash commander in the hump, with a mini removable 90º screw in antenna... hmmm

But there will also be howls from the crowd that would want the K7 type size and build with flash for $800.00 at realease... what to do?
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Search for the light...
Ken
 
Do NOT agree that it should be integrated. BUT of a quality that it FEELS like integrated - but still possibly to remove et when YOU DECIDE to travel light. I DONT want other to be in charge of that descision.
 
For usage with the more heavy SHG glass, you need to use the grip. Autofocus is faster with additional power of the grip and SHG glass uses a lot of power. With one battery you won't be taking pictures for long with the 300/2.8 attached...

Since the pro body is targetted to match the SHG glass, I prefer an integrated grip as well.
Agreed, but I contend that the majority of E3 users use HG rather than SHG glass.

Users of SHG are in a small niche of the Olympus system. No doubt it is a nice place to be but it is hardly mainstream. Creating a body to suit this niche and ignoring the needs of the majority of its customers would be folly for Olympus.

As an Olympus user I want them to thrive and I can't see how a large bodied camera could be profitable for Olympus.

I respect your desire for such a camera, just as I think you respect mine for a compact "pro" body.

In an ideal world Olympus would produce a range of "pro" bodies to suit us all but that isn't going to happen. One of us is going to be disappointed. Hopefully it won't be both of us.

Regards,

Peter
'Keep taking the photos'
 
Don't forget the Sony Alpha-850 , its priced well within that of the 7D / D300s / E3 range in many part of the world. Between them and the D90 class, there is also the ( very nice ) Pentax K7. And by the way Olympus been so slow forthcoming with any real improvement and advance. You bet we might actually see the Nikon D400, Canon EOS-60D, a Sony A700 replacement, and might be even another Pentax into the game. And thrown in some wild card, we might even see a new Fujifilm DSLR. And who is to say the D90 won't see a replacement ( for certain it won't be a D100 , a chuckle )

That's how I see the game table being laid, but more so there will be

Micro 4/3 ( from Panasonic ) , yes Panasonic had already made it quite clear that they are not going to be doing anything 4/3. They are indeed likely to enter with a more up market Micro 4/3 body. And not to mention Olympus themselves probably fighting how to go about this E3 replacement ( might be a M4/3 Semi-PRO body )

It might be bad news for Olympus, as for the E3 replacement to be viable , it must perform on par, and deliver on time, against the likes of such, and so far, there is sparsely few that would convince that such is the case

And let's refresh that, 4/3 is not just about the E3 replacement, where's the mid range , and the more amateur/hobbyist model and the consumer ones, and of course the lens ( oh what a thorny issue right !! )

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  • Franka -
 
For usage with the more heavy SHG glass, you need to use the grip. Autofocus is faster with additional power of the grip and SHG glass uses a lot of power. With one battery you won't be taking pictures for long with the 300/2.8 attached...

Since the pro body is targetted to match the SHG glass, I prefer an integrated grip as well.
Remember that the E-1 had a removable battery grip HLD-2, with the big single battery BLL-1. I don't know if reusing that enormous battery is needed for an e-3 successor, maybe for extended video? But a single battery is always better to deliver power than 2x BLM-1 or 2xBLS-1.

Remember that the mock up of E-P1 that later became E-3, actually had an integrated power grip.

But with an E-3 successor having an integrated grip, doesn't that increase the need for a simultaneously released E-30 successor as well? Should that become a weather sealed tweener?

Why is there a need and preference for a power battery grip ?
  • More battery juice -> longevity
  • Better ergonomy (for someone shooting portraits or pano)
  • Faster AF drive to telephoto lenses
  • Smaller and lighter while integrated, than for an optional battery grip system.
  • Easier to integrate GPS antena(s) and have more energy available.
  • More space for external connectors, HDMI, remote control, ...
  • More space for a DualCore/QuadCore image/video processor -> 1080p
Questions :
  • How about articulated LCD? (E-3 has it, E-1 didn't)
  • How about integrated flash? (E-3 has it, E-1 didn't)
  • How about the humungous optical viewfinder? (E-1 was smaller)
--

Ludwig Wittgenstein; British philosopher born in Austria; a major influence on logic and logical positivism (1889-1951):

“What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent”
 
The worst are the total lost control of expectations, with loads of speculations of revolutional technologies put together.

It doesn't work that way, rather it's a slow evolution, even if we incorporate the Moore's law.

A sanity check is to look back and extrapolate with several solid reference points in history, in order not to fly away into the stratosphere, and take a free fall crash later.

Conclusion : With realistic expectations set, less moaning once the products are launched.
--

Ludwig Wittgenstein; British philosopher born in Austria; a major influence on logic and logical positivism (1889-1951):

“What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent”
 
Some really good replies and comments to my question on where the Ex needs to be pitched at by Oly.

My own thoughts are that:

1. The Ex flagship camera can't be on a 3 year + cycle and that clearly needs to change, esp when you see how Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Sony, etc. have been pushing ahead with a refresh every two years for their semi-pro cameras. If they insist on a 3 product cycle then they should be doing a refresh every 1.5years to keep the camera competitive or make sure that its significantly more advanced than anything that the others are likely to make (not realistic).

2. Sensor - If the new GH2 Pana sensor is as good as they (Panasonic) claim how far do you push the MP count ? 12MP, 14 or 16MP ? Personally 12MP would be fine esp if it meant good high ISO (ISO 3200 +), DR but 14MP if it was to balance resolution, DR and also like the GH1's oversized with the variable ratios.

3. AF - E3's achillies heel if you ask me. As the others have already mentioned (Donald, etc) the AF needs to be as good as Nikon's D300s and the 7D and from day one.

4. Video - any new camera flagship camera has to be able to do HD video whether we need it or not. I can see myself using video on the odd occasion but thats me as I'm sure a lot of others wouldn't.
5. Focus Assist lamp - that needs to come back for the E3+
6. LCD - Articulated and as high res as the competition or higher.
7. Dual CF or CF + SD cards

8. Standardise on DNG as the RAW file format or at least give an option to shoot in DNG.
9. Improved Live View - its handy but on my E3 its clunky to say the least.

10. Size - E1 was perfect but I've not found the E3's to be too big and with the 35-100F2 I've found that its better balanced with the E3.

11. Battery grip - may be two versions with and without a grip. I've never used the battery grip with my E3 and I'd want a replacement without one but I understand why others would want.

12. m43 - Ben, you've made some really good points regards the m43 and how that's attracting all sorts of photographers into buying into the system and that can only be a good thing. I do expect Pana to pitch in a pro grade m43 camera at some point as they always stated that there would be a semi-pro camera from them when they first went introduced the L1.

I was very pretty surprised to see that some existing Olympus shooters state that they thought an Ex could not compete against the D300s/7D etc and it should be aimed at the D90s. I'm not knocking the D90 etc. but if the Ex isn't as good or better than the D300s/7D's then what's the point of having a weather-sealed pro spec camera and HG/SHG lenses ?

Cheers

Harj
 
Olympus has never tried to match Canon or Nikon flagships head to head. Why try to fight 2 800 lbs gorillas for the bananas they are wrestling for when they aren't paying attention to the mangos ripe for the picking? LOL

The Pen series and OM series were produced as alternatives to the big pro systems. Olympus seems to be "rediscovering" what has always made their cameras appealing. I think the technology of 4/3 is finally catching up to what Olympus wants to do with it. The E-1 and E-3 were as much platforms for experimentation as finished products. This is common when developing a new technology or trying to adapt technology to a new application.

Just take a look at the development of 35mm slrs, and especially some companies' pro models to see how much flagships can end up failing to live up to their potential.

Minolta XK anyone? Pentax LX? The Leica R series?
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I can't help thinking that many of you here are more loyal to Olympus than to yourselves. Now you make a list of existing high-end cameras that you would like to own (and use right now I suppose).

Yet you are willing to sit down and wait for Olympus to create this camera, and Olympus gives you nothing, no positive indication (on the opposite it seems) that they will ever make a single camera that will use the full potential of your precious Zuikos.

I Don't get it. If you need more (or less) than E-3, go get it now. Things will probably not change. Olympus is the same tomorrow - like any other brand is. The next flagship will be behind competition on the benchmarks (and a lot of you will (then) say it's more than enough for you - ever) but will have a very unique (approaching strange) feature or two (a camera made for heavy rain and lots of light is unique I think. A rugged pro camera with a small sensible flipscreen...).

Explain this kind of loyalty.
Its great that someone at last can see the future cleary....

You obviously don't like Olympus, but I'm quite happy with my E-30 and its lenses.
Get over it and move somewhere else with your sarcatic non factual statements.

If its to hard for you to understand that technology moves on, while a great lens keeps on working long after you have put your Cannikon camera to rest for ever, it's not our problem, but yours!

Of course I we all want improved equipment and I expect all manufacturers to keep improving, even Canon and Nikon!

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http://www.ohb.no/foto
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Torstein
 
... than a definite no-buy from me (ridiculous size with this stupid built-in grip). Or they do a K-7 sized sealed and solid E-40 to complement the E-5. Than by any means go for the E-3 monster.

I still think that the SMALL and PRO strategy would pay off, but what do I know ...

Cheers

Claudius
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Member of the LAGIMESCE

(local action group for introduction of mandatory environmental sealing in consumer
electronics)
 
But with an E-3 successor having an integrated grip, doesn't that increase the need for a simultaneously released E-30 successor as well? Should that become a weather sealed tweener?
Yes, I think so. Not everybody does like ridiculous sizes.
  • Better ergonomy (for someone shooting portraits or pano)
Make the sensor square (and the mirror I guess), so you can switch (mask out) electronically.
Questions :
  • How about articulated LCD? (E-3 has it, E-1 didn't)
Let it be there, but make it sturdier if possible.
  • How about integrated flash? (E-3 has it, E-1 didn't)
Make it a compact detachable unit, but stronger (a 20?).
  • How about the humungous optical viewfinder? (E-1 was smaller)
Leave it, I don't think it's an issue. Or make it a very good EVF.

Cheers

Claudius

--
Member of the LAGIMESCE

(local action group for introduction of mandatory environmental sealing in consumer
electronics)
 
Hi,

I think a lot of Olympus user shares my view here. Olympus lenses are as good if not better ( they are, modesty aside) than equivalent makes from any manufacturer.

People like Donald are frustrated because they are forced to look elsewhere (and give up using those superb lenses) because Olympus does not produce a higher spec pro body worthy of those lenses.

Personally I prefer the E3 over the D300s (even if the latter is way better in almost all aspect) and I am willing to work around the E3's short coming simply because of the 12-60 and 50-200. But then my photography is not very demanding. A pro who depend on photography to pay the bill might not be willing or can't afford to compromise.
Regards,
Alfrerd
 
So what they should do is an E-3 with grip and perhaps a new weather sealed and rugged E-40?

Just a thought.

With so many people wanting different things, it should be possible to do more, just not in the same camera necessarily.
 
those for whom the E-3 is clearly out-matched by its competition---in terms of what these users need/want---and those for whom the E-3 is a really solid and capable camera.

for that former group, i think the question posed by at least one poster above is pretty trenchant: why the brand loyalty? those other cameras that are better are already out there, supposedly, so why not make that move now, instead of waiting around for a new camera from Oly that in all likelihood will not be a satisfying solution to you? if it's the lenses, well, it's time to figure out if that's enough reason to be satisfied with a lesser body or not, and go from there. it's not like there aren't good lenses made by Nikon or Canon. the lens issue over in those camps is mostly wildly differing quality across the lines, not the unavailability of good glass.

i am in the latter group. the sole "problem" i have with the E-3 is the banding issue at 1600---an iso i've used exactly twice, and that for family type shots where i was too damn lazy to fool with the flash, onboard or my terrific Metz. otherwise, for me the E-3's strengths, especially its robustness, is the key determinant, along with its DR extending into the shadows. and i'm also someone who really LOVES the size and heft of the camera, and its ergonomics. as nice as the Nikon D300/300s and D700 are as cameras----they just do not fit in my hands as well. and as far as their better high iso performance goes---yeah, no question it's better, but it's still not good enough for my typical shooting, which needs lowest possible iso within reason. so it's a moot point to me whether their iso 6400 is as good as Oly's iso 1600, that famous 2 stop advantage. call me when their iso 6400 looks like iso 200. 8Furthermore* , a lot of this is based on web viewing differences, not printing differences, and for me the print is the ultimate object of photography---not true for many others, of course. and in printing so much of all this difference---except the banding, a real problem (but one that besets other makes as well...)---doesn't show in the prints.

and the mp count isn't a big deal to me either. i get a bump up with 14mp, but not one that's going to make me run out and upgrade. if i'm going to slam some real cash down for a serious upgrade to what i can get from my E-3 and the lenses i have now, it's going to be the Sony A900 and a couple of CZ WA lenses. i'd be buying a significant boost to mp, possibly the best DR, certainly at that price, and spectacular performance from those 2 CZ WA's, as evidenced by the samples i've seen, in a tight body that feels good in my hands.

so, for me, i'd only really want to see some tweaks to the E-3: get rid of the banding problem, cleaner iso 800, maybe a fiddle with the DR, maybe a bump up on mp (as long as it didn't mess anything else up), a different way of doing wireless, and i'd love the onboard flash to be able to rotate a bit for bounce---all in essentially the same body! and at roughly the same price point. i'd buy that (if i had the money...).
 
--
Member of the LAGIMESCE

(local action group for introduction of mandatory environmental sealing in consumer
electronics)
 
I would like to see the built in grip, but I do not think Olympus can afford to go that route. While Olympus might want to advertise the E-3 as a pro level camera I think the majority of users are enthusiasts who do not have any need for the larger grip. The E-3 will be competing against the 7D & the K-7 neither of which have a integrated grip.

12MP is obviously less than the competition, but if the new sensor has significantly better DR and S/N ratio then 12MP would be enough. I would assume Olympus will increase the MP, but 14MP is not a noticeable increase so why bother. If they can not successfully implement 16MP then why bother. If they roll out a 14MP sensor then it is for marketing reasons since 2MP is not enough of an increase to make a noticeable difference.

Some have mentioned support for DNG which I personally would like to see. A lot of the professionals that do work with an E-x body also work with other systems and having a common file to work with is a convenience. I don't think Olympus is really going after professionals with the E-x line so I doubt we will see DNG support. Enthusiasts have no use for DNG support.

I'm not sure I understand the comments about CDAF eventually being better than PDAF. I have seen several 10 frame bursts with predictive AF from the 1DIV and the 7D of birds in flight where every frame was tack sharp. The Canon crowd is really giving the AF system a workout after the 1DIII AF issues, and the new AF system is very impressive. PDAF is a very accurate system when implemented correctly.

Consumers and enthusiasts are going to be more accepting of an EVF since they are standard on a lot of consumer grade products. I could see the E-6xx line being the first to get the EVF if Olympus goes in that direction.
 

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