Would you buy the SD9?

.Ray · Sep 27, 2002

I was somewhat excited few months ago when the X3 chip and SD9 was annouced, especially after seeing the initial sample pictures, how noise free they were. Anyway, now I know bit more about the camera and having seen some pre-production shots, I'm not so excited. Why?

The main drawback as pointed out by many posters in the last few months is the Sigma lens system, or more precisely, being locked to the Sigma mount lenses.

What do you think, just for argument sake, you liked the pictures, you like the price, but considering the costs of lenses, would you be willing to be locked into to the Sigma mount? Is it worth saving a few hundred now but limit you choice of cameras and lenses in the future? Of course, you can sell the camera and Sigma mount lenses in the future, but that'll cost you even more on depreciation than you would save now.

.Ray

Carlos Echenique · Sep 27, 2002

In a heartbeat.

.Ray (UK) said:
I was somewhat excited few months ago when the X3 chip and SD9 was
annouced, especially after seeing the initial sample pictures, how
noise free they were. Anyway, now I know bit more about the camera
and having seen some pre-production shots, I'm not so excited. Why?

The main drawback as pointed out by many posters in the last few
months is the Sigma lens system, or more precisely, being locked to
the Sigma mount lenses.

What do you think, just for argument sake, you liked the pictures,
you like the price, but considering the costs of lenses, would you
be willing to be locked into to the Sigma mount? Is it worth
saving a few hundred now but limit you choice of cameras and lenses
in the future? Of course, you can sell the camera and Sigma mount
lenses in the future, but that'll cost you even more on
depreciation than you would save now.

.Ray

--
Carlos

Samuel Pyrtle · Sep 27, 2002

20 in line with State Street Direct (hoping to support DPR and Phil) - ordered lMonday Sept 23

2 in line with Ritz Camera - back-up just in case SSD doesn't get enough for initial orders - Ordered Wednesday, Sept 25.

So - yes - I am getting one - First SLR ever (much less DSLR) - and looking forward to it.

Now I just have to figure out what all the lense terminology means (thanks to MAC and everyone who helps with this issue) and what lenses are best for me (as a beginner).

So - I am in the race for one!!!!!

=)

Sam

Carlos M. Echenique said:
.Ray (UK) said:

I was somewhat excited few months ago when the X3 chip and SD9 was
annouced, especially after seeing the initial sample pictures, how
noise free they were. Anyway, now I know bit more about the camera
and having seen some pre-production shots, I'm not so excited. Why?

The main drawback as pointed out by many posters in the last few
months is the Sigma lens system, or more precisely, being locked to
the Sigma mount lenses.

What do you think, just for argument sake, you liked the pictures,
you like the price, but considering the costs of lenses, would you
be willing to be locked into to the Sigma mount? Is it worth
saving a few hundred now but limit you choice of cameras and lenses
in the future? Of course, you can sell the camera and Sigma mount
lenses in the future, but that'll cost you even more on
depreciation than you would save now.

.Ray

Click to expand...

--
Carlos

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://groups.msn.com/SamPyrtle/shoebox.msnw

Jimmy Chen · Sep 27, 2002

.Ray said:
The main drawback as pointed out by many posters in the last few
months is the Sigma lens system, or more precisely, being locked to
the Sigma mount lenses.

No different then being locked into a Canon or Nikon lens system. One feature that may set you at ease is Sigma do offer a service to remount their lenses into other mounts. It costs $70 for the 1st lens, and $10 extra for each additional lens. With this feature you can by the SD-9 today, and switch to say a Nikon/X3 camera next year and still be able to use the same lenses.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

Jimmy Chen · Sep 27, 2002

Samuel Pyrtle said:
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover

We may have to change the SIG soon.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

Samuel Pyrtle · Sep 27, 2002

I am a Sony F707 lover for sure!!!!

That was my first personal dig camera really -

My partner and I got an E-10 - but he has been the one who mostly used it - and we have used it for 1 1/2 years - and like that too.

But I never really got into photography until I got my own camera - the F707 - and from that moment on - it has been true love.

So we will most likely sell his E-10 and keep the 707 as company for the Sigma.

But next year is, in fact, another year - and who knows what will be avail for purchase then!!!!!

=)

The game is the one who has the most toys wins - right?

HA!

Oh! And Jimmy - thanks for all your good posts - I have been following them closely - and like you, learning a lot over these past 2 weeks...

Sam

Jimmy Chen said:
Jimmy Chen said:

Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover

Click to expand...

We may have to change the SIG soon.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://groups.msn.com/SamPyrtle/shoebox.msnw

Lars · Sep 27, 2002

Sigma is certainly one of the more innovative lens makers with many happy customers, although many others claim that they have an inconsistent build quality (many "bad" examples).

Without an investment into a system and with the need to buy something now, I would not hesitate if the final reviews confirm what we see.

Having a D60 and three nice Canon lenses (one "L"), I see no reason to switch. An EOS 3D with a full-size Foveon sensor would be nice, though....

Lars

.Ray (UK) said:
I was somewhat excited few months ago when the X3 chip and SD9 was
annouced, especially after seeing the initial sample pictures, how
noise free they were. Anyway, now I know bit more about the camera
and having seen some pre-production shots, I'm not so excited. Why?

The main drawback as pointed out by many posters in the last few
months is the Sigma lens system, or more precisely, being locked to
the Sigma mount lenses.

What do you think, just for argument sake, you liked the pictures,
you like the price, but considering the costs of lenses, would you
be willing to be locked into to the Sigma mount? Is it worth
saving a few hundred now but limit you choice of cameras and lenses
in the future? Of course, you can sell the camera and Sigma mount
lenses in the future, but that'll cost you even more on
depreciation than you would save now.

.Ray

photovoyager · Sep 27, 2002

Quite possibly. The results have a certain "pop" that really draws me to them... And it could turn out to be rather cheap too... I've heard maybe $1300 or so... Not bad...

I don't think Sigma lenses would be a problem. For one thing you don't need nearly as high-quality a lens with a sensor having 1.7x FOV, and anyhow I am of the opinion that many of the Sigma lenses are much better than some people would tell you.

I'm not rushing into one, but I'd say it's a possibility. The samples look VERY promising to me.

Regards,
photovoyager

Dave Oddie · Sep 27, 2002

.Ray (UK) said:
I was somewhat excited few months ago when the X3 chip and SD9 was
annouced, especially after seeing the initial sample pictures, how
noise free they were. Anyway, now I know bit more about the camera
and having seen some pre-production shots, I'm not so excited. Why?

The main drawback as pointed out by many posters in the last few
months is the Sigma lens system, or more precisely, being locked to
the Sigma mount lenses.

The main drawback for me is not the name on the lenses but the fact this camera has a crop factor of 1.7.

I don't have Nikon or Canon glass and I tend keep my cameras a long time. I can't understand how people other than professionals seem to chuck out last years model for this so an investment in any SLR system for me would boil down to a body and three or four lenses and that would be it for quite a few years.

If the camera, be it a Sigma or anything else, gave me what I considered good enough pics I would not want to throw it out because someone made something better in 12 months time.

But he 1.7 crop factor?

No thanks.

The huge Sigma 14mm crops to a 24mm (in 35mm terms) equivalent.

That is as wide as you go for rectilinear wide angles.

If Sigma bring out a lens designed to cover the Foveon senor area of 10mm or 11mm true focal length (if that is possible) to give a true super wide capability to this camera I would be tempted. Provided its not the size and weight of a house brick.

I think its going to be a long time before we see 24mmx36mm Foveon sensors so I was thinking a 4/3 Fovean senor like the idea from Oly and Kodak might be a good idea.

I am not sure how the Foveon sensor compares size wize to the 4/3 spec but mating the physically small Foveon to a 35mm lens system has the same drawbacks associated with the sensors in the D100/S2/D60.

I guess a complete new lens system from Sigma tailored to the size of the sensor would br a bridge too far - but if they add the odd specialist designed-for-foveon lens to the range thet would help.

Dave

Lars · Sep 27, 2002

Dave Oddie wrote:
....

Dave Oddie said:
I think its going to be a long time before we see 24mmx36mm Foveon
sensors so I was thinking a 4/3 Fovean senor like the idea from Oly
and Kodak might be a good idea.

I am not sure how the Foveon sensor compares size wize to the 4/3
spec but mating the physically small Foveon to a 35mm lens system
has the same drawbacks associated with the sensors in the
D100/S2/D60.

The current Foveon Sensor at 20.7x13.8 mm is bigger than the Four-Thirds System at 18x13.5 .

Also please keep in mind that Four-Thirds is currently developed by Kodak, so I doubt that they will switch to another chip vendor.

However, I hope that any Foveon sensor over time will appear in other mfg cameras as well!

Lars

TiggerTHC · Sep 27, 2002

I have been looking at several D-SLRs in the last few months and I have never seen more beautiful images than the ones from this camera. Limitations? Every camera has them, but when you consider investing in a D-SLR and don't have one yet, why not start with the one that produces the level of quality you are shooting for? I am very excited to see the reviews and although I won't buy right away, I have a feeling this is the camera for me. It's all about the quality of the picture.

I want sharp, vivid images. This camera had a sharpness most cameras can't match, even before it goes into production. I love the samples, Phil! They are wonderful. They have brought me so much closer to making a decision.

Thanks!
Trevor

Dave Oddie · Sep 27, 2002

photovoyager said:
I don't think Sigma lenses would be a problem. For one thing you
don't need nearly as high-quality a lens with a sensor having 1.7x
FOV,

Surely that is not true.

The 1.7 FOV screws things up big time.

To get a 35mm to 105mm zoom lens equivalent - which is hardly esoteric - you would need a 20mm to 60mm zoom on the Sigma - which is pretty esoteric and does not exist.

They do a 20mm to 40mm which gives you roughly a 35mm to 70mm "standard" zoom, but thats it. Old hat zoom range for a "standard" zoom.

28mm to 200mm "travel" zoom anyone? Well for that you would need a 17mm to 117mm or thereabouts.

Not much chance of one of those turning up. And finally for a 20mm/21mm wideangle youi need 12mm. Does not exist as far as I know.

OK if you are into wildlife photography or portrature you can come up with an outfit easily enough but the set of popular focal lengths that have grown up for 35mm are just not there with a 1.7 crop factor.

The best you can do is something like:

24mm (use the Sigma 14mm, massive expensive lens) 35mm-70mm (by using the Sigma 20mm-40mm zoom) and then I guess you could use 28mm to 105mm or 28mm-200mm for the rest to give 50-180 or 50-280.

For me, none of these offer any ideal focal length range.

To travel light in 35mm terms I want a 17mm and a 28mm-200mm zoom. You can't get this focal length range in two lenses with a 1.7 crop.

The rest of the outfit when I am feeling enthusiastic about carrying all the gear, would be a 35mm F2 and a 105mm F2.8 macro.

You can get those two by using the 20mm F1.8 and 60mm macro (if they make one) BUT because the 1.7 is a crop there are DOF issues as well.

Dave

lilharley · Sep 27, 2002

I am definitely looking at the SD-9 to replace my E10. But before jumping in head first, I want to see what the body will do, i.e. AF, write speeds, FPS, flash, battery consumption, etc.

I don't find that having a Sigma mount on a Sigma camera is that big of deal. I read all the time where many of the Nikon/Canon people have Sigma lenses already for their cameras anyway.

Lars · Sep 27, 2002

The SD9 only provides 6-8MB raw files. While I shoot Raw most of the time, it's nice to have the JPEG option for snapshots or in situations where storage becomes an issue.

Sigma has removed the ISO800 setting (probably due to noise issues). That is too much a restriction in comparison with the competition.

Scott Fleming · Sep 27, 2002

I've NEVER taken as good a shot as those posted in the Photokina report. Whatmeworry if those lenses are better than I'll probably EVER be? I have a couple Canon lenses but nothing major. I could go Sigma, save a whole lot of money and make the pictures of my life.

On another thread I commented ...

Don't let your models know what this camera can do or you won't get any of them to work for you any more.

As the pic of the model loaded in large format I examined every pore of this womans perfect skin .... and somebody needs to tell her she needs to see her dentist for a cleaning. She's got some plack forming just at the gum line on the second and third bi-cuspid. }%^]

NICE hair too. EVERY STRAND.

Dave Oddie · Sep 27, 2002

Lars said:
Member said:

I think its going to be a long time before we see 24mmx36mm Foveon
sensors so I was thinking a 4/3 Fovean senor like the idea from Oly
and Kodak might be a good idea.

I am not sure how the Foveon sensor compares size wize to the 4/3
spec but mating the physically small Foveon to a 35mm lens system
has the same drawbacks associated with the sensors in the
D100/S2/D60.

Click to expand...

The current Foveon Sensor at 20.7x13.8 mm is bigger than the
Four-Thirds System at 18x13.5 .

Also please keep in mind that Four-Thirds is currently developed by
Kodak, so I doubt that they will switch to another chip vendor.

Thanks for the info re sizes.

The idea was not that Oly switch to Foveon but that Sigma build a 4/3 CCD based camera using Foveon much in the same way as I assume Fuji will build a 4/3 CCD based camera on their "super-CCD" technology. (Fuji are signed up to the 4/3 club).

Then, Sigma being a lens maker, could develop a series of lenses designed for the 4/3 standard that they could use on their own 4/3 Foveon camera and also sell "Olympus mount" versions and Fuji mount versions just as they sell Nikon and Canon mount lenses in the 35mm range.

Makes sense to me!

But now you have told me the Foveon is bigger than the 4/3 CCD I can't see it happening as a 4/3 Foveon would be less than the circa 3.5 megapixels of the current chip I assume.

Pity, because, as you can probably tell I don't think a range of lenses designed for 35mm film is any good for use with a CCD that introduces a 1.7 crop factor.

For the record, I don't think they are much use with the Nikon/Canon/Fuji non-full frame D-SLR's either so I am not bashing Sigma alone here

.

Dave

jdavis37 · Sep 27, 2002

WA fans simply need to hold out for a full sized sensor such as the new Kodak or Canon if you can afford it. The S2 and D100 are both 1.5X so there isnt a whole lot of difference.

On DOF issues the crop factor actually helps.. for example in the Nikon/Canon mount world you buy a 50mm f1.8 prime for $90USD and end up effectively with an 80mm f1.8 portrait lens for under $100. There are some advantages to the crop factor besides the longer reaches.

WA alas suffers greatly. I also wish Sigma made a 50mm f1.8 lens but they do not. Is a shame as it is a great lens for a DSLR with a crop factor.

On flip side buy the Tamron 24-135 and you end up with a 40-230 lens ( FOV equiv ) which merely suffers at the low end . Add the Sigma 15-30 and you end up wiht a 25-50mm fov equiv.

But if true WA is what you need you are screwed with the crop factor and going to 1.7X doesn't help at all. Hold out for either the next generation of Foveon or go for the newest generation CMOS such as the Kodak.

Dave Oddie said:
photovoyager said:

I don't think Sigma lenses would be a problem. For one thing you
don't need nearly as high-quality a lens with a sensor having 1.7x
FOV,

Click to expand...

Surely that is not true.

The 1.7 FOV screws things up big time.

To get a 35mm to 105mm zoom lens equivalent - which is hardly
esoteric - you would need a 20mm to 60mm zoom on the Sigma - which
is pretty esoteric and does not exist.

They do a 20mm to 40mm which gives you roughly a 35mm to 70mm
"standard" zoom, but thats it. Old hat zoom range for a "standard"
zoom.

28mm to 200mm "travel" zoom anyone? Well for that you would need a
17mm to 117mm or thereabouts.

Not much chance of one of those turning up. And finally for a
20mm/21mm wideangle youi need 12mm. Does not exist as far as I
know.

OK if you are into wildlife photography or portrature you can come
up with an outfit easily enough but the set of popular focal
lengths that have grown up for 35mm are just not there with a 1.7
crop factor.

The best you can do is something like:

24mm (use the Sigma 14mm, massive expensive lens) 35mm-70mm (by
using the Sigma 20mm-40mm zoom) and then I guess you could use 28mm
to 105mm or 28mm-200mm for the rest to give 50-180 or 50-280.

For me, none of these offer any ideal focal length range.

To travel light in 35mm terms I want a 17mm and a 28mm-200mm zoom.
You can't get this focal length range in two lenses with a 1.7 crop.

The rest of the outfit when I am feeling enthusiastic about
carrying all the gear, would be a 35mm F2 and a 105mm F2.8 macro.

You can get those two by using the 20mm F1.8 and 60mm macro (if
they make one) BUT because the 1.7 is a crop there are DOF issues
as well.

Dave

Dave Oddie · Sep 27, 2002

Trevor Curits said:
I have been looking at several D-SLRs in the last few months and I
have never seen more beautiful images than the ones from this
camera.

I think they are brilliant as well.

TiggerTHC said:
Limitations? Every camera has them, but when you consider
investing in a D-SLR and don't have one yet, why not start with the
one that produces the level of quality you are shooting for?

Image quality is one factor, but I always thought people bought SLR's because you could change the lenses AND have the choice of a range of lenses so you could tailor the system to your needs.

An SLR system comprises two main parts - the body - which given the foveon sensor seems great in the SD9's case and the lens system.

With a 1.7 crop factor you have a very restricted choice of lenses in terms of the usable focal length range one is used to with 35mm and nothing wider than 24mm.

If you want image quality, can live with a restricted lens range and nothing wider than 24mm - how about a 6 x 4.5 SLR camera?

If you don't need anything wider than about 35mm then fine, the SD9 looks tostand up well, if you can put up with a standard zoom of 35-70mm equivalent for example.

Dave

Jimmy Chen · Sep 27, 2002

Dave Oddie said:
But now you have told me the Foveon is bigger than the 4/3 CCD I
can't see it happening as a 4/3 Foveon would be less than the circa
3.5 megapixels of the current chip I assume.

Shouldnt be much of a problem for the existing X3 chip, all Foveon need to do is mask up the pixels around the boarders by something like ~~1.35mm (150 pixels) on L/R sides and 0.15mm (~~ 16 pixels) T/B sides and it will be a 4/3 chip.

I know one of the standard is there needs to be a set distance from the lens mount to the sensor, but I dont know if the 4/3 spec ever set a standard for the chip package size.

--
jc
Sony F707
http://www.reefkeepers.org/gallery/f707
http://www.reeftec.com/gallery

Dave Oddie · Sep 27, 2002

JDavis37 said:
On flip side buy the Tamron 24-135 and you end up with a 40-230
lens ( FOV equiv ) which merely suffers at the low end . Add the
Sigma 15-30 and you end up wiht a 25-50mm fov equiv.

Do Tamron make Sigma SD mount lenses? I didn't think they did. So the best you can do is get the Sigam 24-70 which is 40-120mm or suffer enven more at the "wide" end and have a 28mm start point for the zomm which is 48mm equivalent - not wide angle at all.

jdavis37 said:
But if true WA is what you need you are screwed with the crop
factor and going to 1.7X doesn't help at all. Hold out for either
the next generation of Foveon or go for the newest generation CMOS
such as the Kodak.

Can't afford the Kodak + lenses let alone the Canon + lenses. Sigma SD9 + lenses I could stretch to with a bit of real world discounting off the top of the recommended retail price. Pity about the crop factor, I love my 21mm wide angle.

Dave

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