Qimage Pro and ICC color matching problems

Jorge Lacomba · Sep 23, 2002

I am in the trial period of Qimage Pro and I found it is a very good program and I do plan to buy it. However I am having problems with my ICC profiles and how my images are displayed on my monitor (Dell 1900FP with ICC profile installed on a Windows Xp system): i.e. If I open a TIFF image taken with my S2Pro converted from RAW with FujiEx that had been saved in the Adobe98 color space, if I open it with Photoshop 6 I see it ok but If I open it with Q, the image becomes more red. Could someone give me a clue on what am I doing wrong?? (P.D.: I set in Q as monitor ICC profile the 1900FP.icm file, and Qimage Pro seems to recognize that the image has embeded the Adobe98 color space). I just do not get why the two programs do not display just the same output.
--
JLC.

Bruce Kolber · Sep 23, 2002

If I remember correctly, the same thing happened to me when I tried it. I believe some things (like the Slide Show) use the profile but the preview screen for paper sizing does not use it. Try the image in the Slide Show and see if it changes right after you open it.

Jorge Lacomba said:
I am in the trial period of Qimage Pro and I found it is a very
good program and I do plan to buy it. However I am having problems
with my ICC profiles and how my images are displayed on my monitor
(Dell 1900FP with ICC profile installed on a Windows Xp system):
i.e. If I open a TIFF image taken with my S2Pro converted from RAW
with FujiEx that had been saved in the Adobe98 color space, if I
open it with Photoshop 6 I see it ok but If I open it with Q, the
image becomes more red. Could someone give me a clue on what am I
doing wrong?? (P.D.: I set in Q as monitor ICC profile the
1900FP.icm file, and Qimage Pro seems to recognize that the image
has embeded the Adobe98 color space). I just do not get why the two
programs do not display just the same output.
--
JLC.

Jorge Lacomba · Sep 23, 2002

Thanks, but I actually see how the profile is applied so, this is not the same case as yours. I just see a difference between how it is the image output in Photoshop and in Qimage and I don't undestand why if they are using the same profiles.

Bruce Kolber said:
Jorge Lacomba said:

I am in the trial period of Qimage Pro and I found it is a very
good program and I do plan to buy it. However I am having problems
with my ICC profiles and how my images are displayed on my monitor
(Dell 1900FP with ICC profile installed on a Windows Xp system):
i.e. If I open a TIFF image taken with my S2Pro converted from RAW
with FujiEx that had been saved in the Adobe98 color space, if I
open it with Photoshop 6 I see it ok but If I open it with Q, the
image becomes more red. Could someone give me a clue on what am I
doing wrong?? (P.D.: I set in Q as monitor ICC profile the
1900FP.icm file, and Qimage Pro seems to recognize that the image
has embeded the Adobe98 color space). I just do not get why the two
programs do not display just the same output.
--
JLC.

Click to expand...

--
JLC.

Fabrice Lefebvre · Sep 25, 2002

I have the same problem here. Well, quite the same.

It's not that the image is more red, but that strong reds are different in Qimage than in PhotoShop.

I have a test picture in AdobeRGB which I display in Photoshop 6,
Photoshop 7, Picture Window 3.1, Qimage. My monitor is profiled and
all programs are aware of the ICC profile of my monitor.

All colors except reds perfectly match in all programs.
All colors, including strong reds, match between all version of Photoshop and Picture Window
All strong reds do not match (by a large margin) between Qimage and

other programs

I do not know if this is a bug or if this is the way Qimage interprets out
of gamut colors. I must admit that if this is an interpretation thing, then
I would prefere that Qimage do the same interpretation as other tools.

In any case, I bought Qimage a while ago and I am mostly satisfied.

Jorge Lacomba said:
I am in the trial period of Qimage Pro and I found it is a very
good program and I do plan to buy it. However I am having problems
with my ICC profiles and how my images are displayed on my monitor
(Dell 1900FP with ICC profile installed on a Windows Xp system):
i.e. If I open a TIFF image taken with my S2Pro converted from RAW
with FujiEx that had been saved in the Adobe98 color space, if I
open it with Photoshop 6 I see it ok but If I open it with Q, the
image becomes more red. Could someone give me a clue on what am I
doing wrong?? (P.D.: I set in Q as monitor ICC profile the
1900FP.icm file, and Qimage Pro seems to recognize that the image
has embeded the Adobe98 color space). I just do not get why the two
programs do not display just the same output.
--
JLC.

Mike Chaney · Sep 25, 2002

Qimage Pro will display images on your monitor the same as PhotoShop as long as:

(1) Your "Monitor ICC" in Qimage Pro is set to the same monitor profile that shows under the "Color Management" tab on your display properties.

(2) Qimage Pro recognizes that the image you are viewing is in Adobe RGB color space, i.e. the image has an embedded profile.

(3) There are no associative filters or global filters active in QP.

(4) You are using a view in QP that doesn't use the thumbnail for display (slide show, batch filter, full screen view, image examiner).

We have tested both QP and PS with respect to monitor profiling by actually capturing the data that goes to the monitor and both produce the same result if set up the same way (plus/minus a negligible difference due to different color management engines). The fact that QP shows you the before/after result when it shows the word "profiling" on the monitor often confuses people because they see the image change. That often makes people think there is a difference when there is really no difference and they are just reacting to the before/after image.

One way to test this is to do screen captures. Set up QP as above and view your image(s) in both PS and QP. Do a screen capture in PS and also do a screen capture in QP after the word "profiling" disappears. Then view the screen captures in a photo application that is not ICC aware and compare them. You will see that both are the same. There may be a variance of 1 or 2 RGB units in some colors just due to the way the two color management engines interpret transforms but that should not be visible to the eye. If you do find a significant difference, there is likely some other variable involved and it might help to send me (via private email) a copy of the image you are working with to see if we can reproduce any differences.

So far, we've tested a lot of images on a number of video cards and have never found a visible difference between QP and PS display of images when using the same monitor profile.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com

acmeron · Sep 25, 2002

Jorge Lacomba said:
I am in the trial period of Qimage Pro and I found it is a very
good program and I do plan to buy it. However I am having problems
with my ICC profiles and how my images are displayed on my monitor
(Dell 1900FP with ICC profile installed on a Windows Xp system):
i.e. If I open a TIFF image taken with my S2Pro converted from RAW
with FujiEx that had been saved in the Adobe98 color space, if I
open it with Photoshop 6 I see it ok but If I open it with Q, the
image becomes more red. Could someone give me a clue on what am I
doing wrong?? (P.D.: I set in Q as monitor ICC profile the
1900FP.icm file, and Qimage Pro seems to recognize that the image
has embeded the Adobe98 color space). I just do not get why the two
programs do not display just the same output.
--
JLC.

RAW files sometimes do not save at full information, perhaps you can try saving under a different type of file. This is just a guess.

As for Qimage, I deleted it because they would only let me print one image before having to re-boot it. They should allow at least 5 images so I can run tests.

Mike Chaney · Sep 25, 2002

Focusing on your observations about red colors, I went back to my previous tests and created a very saturated and bright red that I knew would be out of the monitor's color gamut. When I did that, I now see a difference between what PhotoShop displays on screen and what Qimage Pro displays. The Qimage Pro version shows the red a little brighter than PhotoShop, so I think you may have helped me locate a problem, or at least a difference that I need to look into.

I have emailed the author of the color management engine that I use in Qimage Pro and I suspect he will look into the issue right away. He's usually very responsive so I'll let you know what we find and when a fix will be available.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com

jrowley · Sep 25, 2002

Yes, but how mamy programs can you ask a question in an open chat forum, and actually get a response from the author? Not just a response, but an admission that there 'may be an issue'. Also, as good as Mike is at updates, if there is an issue, I would bet that it is fixed almost immediately. The cost of the program is very low considering the quality of the program/level of customer service.

acmeron said:
As for Qimage, I deleted it because they would only let me print
one image before having to re-boot it. They should allow at least 5
images so I can run tests.

rpitas · Sep 25, 2002

I find that reds in PS 6 are much more saturated than in QP after QP applies the monitor profile I generated using photocal. The reds look much more realistic after QP applies the monitor profile. I am using the same monitor profile in QP as is the default in my display properties. These are E10 images with no color management applied. How do I get PS 6 to use the same monitor profile.

Mike Chaney said:
Qimage Pro will display images on your monitor the same as
PhotoShop as long as:

(1) Your "Monitor ICC" in Qimage Pro is set to the same monitor
profile that shows under the "Color Management" tab on your display
properties.

(2) Qimage Pro recognizes that the image you are viewing is in
Adobe RGB color space, i.e. the image has an embedded profile.

(3) There are no associative filters or global filters active in QP.

(4) You are using a view in QP that doesn't use the thumbnail for
display (slide show, batch filter, full screen view, image
examiner).

We have tested both QP and PS with respect to monitor profiling by
actually capturing the data that goes to the monitor and both
produce the same result if set up the same way (plus/minus a
negligible difference due to different color management engines).
The fact that QP shows you the before/after result when it shows
the word "profiling" on the monitor often confuses people because
they see the image change. That often makes people think there is
a difference when there is really no difference and they are just
reacting to the before/after image.

One way to test this is to do screen captures. Set up QP as above
and view your image(s) in both PS and QP. Do a screen capture in
PS and also do a screen capture in QP after the word "profiling"
disappears. Then view the screen captures in a photo application
that is not ICC aware and compare them. You will see that both are
the same. There may be a variance of 1 or 2 RGB units in some
colors just due to the way the two color management engines
interpret transforms but that should not be visible to the eye. If
you do find a significant difference, there is likely some other
variable involved and it might help to send me (via private email)
a copy of the image you are working with to see if we can reproduce
any differences.

So far, we've tested a lot of images on a number of video cards and
have never found a visible difference between QP and PS display of
images when using the same monitor profile.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com

Mike Chaney · Sep 25, 2002

I checked with the author of Qimage Pro's color management engine and we've determined that the difference in reds that you sometimes see when using a monitor profile in Qimage Pro (versus say PhotoShop) is due to a slight difference in how out of gamut colors are mapped onto your monitor profile (as suspected).

The author of the CMM is looking into the issue, but at the moment, we're not sure if it is a "problem" or not. It only occurs when trying to display colors on your screen that are not reproducible by your monitor, so the "best match" in a case like that is often up to interpretation even when dealing with a single rendering intent like perceptual. After more research, I'll post an update, but since it is out of my hands, it may be a week or two.

In the mean time, you should only see a difference in Qimage Pro versus PhotoShop when dealing with monitor profiles if the color you are looking at is not reproducible by your monitor.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com

Bruce Kolber · Sep 25, 2002

Hi Mike, if I interpreted your response correctly, the printed image is unaffected .... only the display image is different .... is that correct or are the out-of-gamut colors mapped differently to the printer also?

In other words, will an out-of-gamut red print differently in Photoshop than it prints in Qimage (assuming same profiles used in both)?

Mike Chaney said:
I checked with the author of Qimage Pro's color management engine
and we've determined that the difference in reds that you sometimes
see when using a monitor profile in Qimage Pro (versus say
PhotoShop) is due to a slight difference in how out of gamut colors
are mapped onto your monitor profile (as suspected).

The author of the CMM is looking into the issue, but at the moment,
we're not sure if it is a "problem" or not. It only occurs when
trying to display colors on your screen that are not reproducible
by your monitor, so the "best match" in a case like that is often
up to interpretation even when dealing with a single rendering
intent like perceptual. After more research, I'll post an update,
but since it is out of my hands, it may be a week or two. In
the mean time, you should only see a difference in Qimage Pro
versus PhotoShop when dealing with monitor profiles if the color
you are looking at is not reproducible by your monitor.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com

Mike Chaney · Sep 25, 2002

Bruce Kolber said:
Hi Mike, if I interpreted your response correctly, the printed
image is unaffected .... only the display image is different ....
is that correct or are the out-of-gamut colors mapped differently
to the printer also?
In other words, will an out-of-gamut red print differently in
Photoshop than it prints in Qimage (assuming same profiles used in
both)?

It only affects monitor profiles. Printer profiles are different because the profile itself determines how to map out of gamut colors instead of the color engine.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com

Fabrice Lefebvre · Sep 25, 2002

Mike Chaney said:
The author of the CMM is looking into the issue, but at the moment,
we're not sure if it is a "problem" or not. It only occurs when
trying to display colors on your screen that are not reproducible
by your monitor, so the "best match" in a case like that is often
up to interpretation even when dealing with a single rendering
intent like perceptual.

Yep. Right. I was also pretty sure that the problem I saw was
about out of gamut colors. And I agree with you when you say
that you (and the author of the CMM) are not sure if it is a
problem. I know what's involved too. I only wanted to point out
that I would rather have Photoshop and Qimage display the
same thing if possible and/or sensible.

BTW, is "icclib" your color engine ?

Mike Chaney said:
but since it is out of my hands, it may be a week or two. In
the mean time, you should only see a difference in Qimage Pro
versus PhotoShop when dealing with monitor profiles if the color
you are looking at is not reproducible by your monitor.

Right. To the best of my abilities, I do not see differences in printed
pictures : colors which did not match between Qimage and Photoshop
on the monitor do match on prints. Alas, bright saturated reds do
not match between prints and monitor, and this is to be expected
since they are way out of gamut of the printer.

Thank you for your efforts

Igor R. · Sep 26, 2002

Mike Chaney said:
Focusing on your observations about red colors, I went back to my
previous tests and created a very saturated and bright red that I
knew would be out of the monitor's color gamut. When I did that, I
now see a difference between what PhotoShop displays on screen and
what Qimage Pro displays. The Qimage Pro version shows the red a
little brighter than PhotoShop, so I think you may have helped me
locate a problem, or at least a difference that I need to look into.

There is such thing as "Desaturate Monitor by X%" in the Photoshop. Maybe it is enabled?
BTW, I did use QImage, and everithing was ok with colors.

Fabrice Lefebvre · Sep 26, 2002

Igor R. said:
There is such thing as "Desaturate Monitor by X%" in the Photoshop.
Maybe it is enabled?
BTW, I did use QImage, and everithing was ok with colors.

This would affect all colors, and not just out of gamut reds.

Thus, it was not enabled in my case because I noticed a difference
with some reds, while everything else matched perfectly.

Anyway, Mike Chaney was able to reproduce the same behavior (notice

I used the word "behavior" and not "problem"), so for me the case is closed since I am quite confident that a patch will be issued or that the documentation will be updated to document the behavior.

Mike Chaney · Sep 26, 2002

Fabrice Lefebvre said:
Yep. Right. I was also pretty sure that the problem I saw was
about out of gamut colors. And I agree with you when you say
that you (and the author of the CMM) are not sure if it is a
problem. I know what's involved too. I only wanted to point out
that I would rather have Photoshop and Qimage display the
same thing if possible and/or sensible.

I agree. Those are basically the same thoughts I conveyed to the author of the color management engine and he's now looking into it.

Fabrice Lefebvre said:
BTW, is "icclib" your color engine ?

Qimage Pro uses "LCMS": http://www.littlecms.com

LCMS is a powerful and extremely accurate CMM available for free (believe it or not) to programmers. I've worked with Marti Maria (the author) many times and he is incredibly responsive and knowledgeable. We've even worked together on issues like ensuring and validating color management accuracy at the 16 bit/channel level for raw images, something that I suspect he rarely has a call for, but provided incredible support for in any case.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com

Mike Chaney · Sep 27, 2002

You can now download Qimage Pro 2002 v2.48 if you would like a fix for the monitor color management issue referenced in this thread. v2.48 will now match PhotoShop, PhotoPaint, Picture Window, and other apps with respect to use of monitor profiles and screen colors.

As usual, Marti was able to fix the problem in Qimage Pro's color management DLL in less than a day!

Enjoy, and thanks for leading me down the right path so I could replicate this problem.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com

Fabrice Lefebvre · Sep 27, 2002

Colors are perfectly matched now !

There is only one thing I regret : not having mentioned the problem before (because I was not sure it wasn't my fault).

Thank you Mike, and thank you Marti.

I'll buy another license asap, just as an encouragement to keep up with the good work.

Mike Chaney said:
You can now download Qimage Pro 2002 v2.48 if you would like a fix
for the monitor color management issue referenced in this thread.
v2.48 will now match PhotoShop, PhotoPaint, Picture Window, and
other apps with respect to use of monitor profiles and screen
colors.

As usual, Marti was able to fix the problem in Qimage Pro's color
management DLL in less than a day!

Enjoy, and thanks for leading me down the right path so I could
replicate this problem.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com

Photo Jeff · Sep 27, 2002

Wow, talk about fast investigation, response and solution; great job.

Thank you,

Jeff

Mike Chaney said:
You can now download Qimage Pro 2002 v2.48 if you would like a fix
for the monitor color management issue referenced in this thread.
v2.48 will now match PhotoShop, PhotoPaint, Picture Window, and
other apps with respect to use of monitor profiles and screen
colors.

As usual, Marti was able to fix the problem in Qimage Pro's color
management DLL in less than a day!

Enjoy, and thanks for leading me down the right path so I could
replicate this problem.

--
Mike
http://www.ddisoftware.com

Jim Dawson · Sep 27, 2002

you're missing alot. BTW, I don't think the demo makes you "reboot", just restart the program.

Jim

acmeron said:
As for Qimage, I deleted it because they would only let me print
one image before having to re-boot it. They should allow at least 5
images so I can run tests.

--
Canon 1D

Qimage Pro and ICC color matching problems

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