Photo Printers Review

I'm looking forawrd to them. As I mentioned on my evaluation, I wished I had received 2 samples from each printer from different machines, so that any problem with a specific machin would be apparent. Hopefully yours will show a sharper image. The question still remains about why same models would produce that much difference of prints?

Alfred
http://www.theNichols.net/Printer_Eval

comments and suggestions always welcome

Alfred
Alfred Voegels would like to call your attention to an evaluation
of print samples from several of today’s popular photo printers.
The evaluation started here at dpreview in the thread

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=3126587

where Alfred decided that in order to make an informed buying
decision he would ask readers of dpreview to send him some samples
of their printers. This call for samples resulted in several
volunteers sending in samples and some of us reviewed and evaluated
those samples. The result of this evaluation is available online in
a web site we created for this purpose.

WE DO NOT CLAIM THIS EVALUATION IS SCIENTIFIC OR HAS ANY MERIT
WHAT-SO-EVER. IT IS NOT OUR INTENTION TO SAY THAT ONE PRINTER IS
BETTER THAN ANOTHER PRINTER. IT IS OUR INTENTION TO SAY WHICH
PRINTER SAMPLES WE LIKED BEST AND WHY. WHAT CONCLUSION YOU DRAW
FROM THESE DISCUSSIONS AND SAMPLES IS COMPLETELY UP TO YOU. ALL
RATINGS SHOWN ARE SUBJECTIVE AND REPRESENTS EACH INDIVIDUAL”S
OPINION ONLY.

You are cordially invited to visit our website and draw your own
conclusions about the samples presented there…

http://www.theNichols.net/Printer_Eval

--
I plan on living forever - so far so good!
 
Charles,

I appreciate your comments and understand what you are saying. And yes some people can "see" the dot patterns and others "don't see" them.

I am eagery awaiting the improved images from the Epson 2200 which had the finest grain of any of the inkjets to see how it compares to the S9000.

I think your point of the difference between projection systems vs the crt's is very applicable to this situation. The apparent sharpness and detail of a printed photo is affected by many attributes. The Canon samples show their characteristic dot patterns when looked at under magnification (or even some people looking very closely with the naked eye.)

However, when viewed at "normal" viewing distance there are NO dots visible. Even a CRT is not continous tone and the new HD CRTs when viewed at "normal" viewing distance appear to be smooth.

I think in my case the descision is a price/performance issue. When I display a 13x19 inch printout from my S9000 and people see it on the wall, the only comments are how sharp, clear and 3 dimensional it is. The 4x6's I printout always exceed the image quality I get from various commerical photo proccessors. Agreed a good Greatag printer running at 500 DPI will out perform my S9000 if it is properly calibrated and maintained - however in the real world that is normally not the case. I constantly fiddle with my S9000 to tweak it to the limits.

I think that we are still in the dawn of the inkjet era - a "normal" comsumer will not get the quality I get - yet. In a few years that will change and the printing process will be tightly coupled to the image capture process and adjustments will not be necessary - at that time the consumer will be able to get great (better at home than in the store) results.

Frank
I would like to thank everyone involved in creating that wonderful
site. It comes at the perfect time since I am considering buying a
new printer to go with my new D60, which will hopefully arrive in a
few weeks. However, I am more confused that ever.

The evaluators seemed to have a heavy bias towards inkjets. I
cannot understand how the S9000 can even be considered in the same
league as the Epson and dye subs when the dots and banding are so
easily seen on all of S9000 the scans, even the low res ones.
Banding and dots are what make most people here not like HP
printers and I agree with that, which is why I want to get a photo
printer in addition to my current HP 970. I find it ironic that
the evaluators would say that the inkjets have better detail than
the dye-subs when to see the detail requires you to also see the
dots and banding. It would be great if the site could add the
evaluations of one or two people who were biased against dots and
banding and see what they think.

I guess printers are like my other hobby: home theater. There are
those who have digital projectors that like the psuedo sharpness of
visible pixels and claim the cannot see the screen door pattern
(black area surrounding each pixel). And there are those who much
prefer the look of a CRT which is not as sharp but has no screen
door and no false sharpness.

Thanks for all the great info. I now know at least which printer I
personally would not like. I hope you will be able to add scans
from the HP7x50 series to see how they compare.

Charles Anstey
--
I plan on living forever - so far so good!
 
In my original post I said I was talking about the low res scans, not the 11x. At 4x it is still really obvious. Also your response shows the bias I'm talking about. You claim that the S9000 is sharper, which can only be detected up close and therefore the Kodak 8500 got a low score, but then claim the dots and banding aren't a problem because you don't see them at normal viewing distances. You can't have it both ways.

I am not going to try to convince you that you should care more about dots and banding than apparent resolution. I am just stating that the group which is biased against dots and banding appears to not have been represented in the evaluation group.

The one set of pictures that had the most affect on me was the oversharpened eye on Frank Nichol's 3rd evaluation page. The S9000 oversharpened image had splotches of color in the skin area but the Kokak 8500 did not. It shows me that the S9000 has lots of false sharpness (edges) where there should be none. Human eyes work the same way as autofocus on a camera. We believe something is in sharp focus when the contrast is at maximum. Most people will pick the S9000 oversharpened eye picture as having higher resolution and sharper, even though the texture on the skin around they eye is completely false and inaccurate to the original image. The Kodak 8500 oversharpened eye still have very little contrast over skin around the eye and tends to look out of focus, but it is the far more accurate picture.

Charles Anstey
The evaluators seemed to have a heavy bias towards inkjets. I
cannot understand how the S9000 can even be considered in the same
league as the Epson and dye subs when the dots and banding are so
easily seen on all of S9000 the scans, even the low res ones.
I was afraid of this.

The scans are deliberately blown up to the point where you CAN see
dots and banding. Remember, 11x is a VERY HIGH magnification -- it
is literally like staring at the print through a high-powered
loupe! The "dots and banding" are barely discernable on the 4x
scans -- which are like holding up the print a few inches in front
of your face in a very strong light.

Viewers of the site never had the chance to hold the pages in their
hands and look for themselves at the "dots and banding" of the
print. The closest you can come to this experience on the site is
to look at the comparison of the whole test image. The Canon's way
of laying down ink creates the "micro banding" effect that people
talk about -- but it actually improves the sharpness of the image
when viewed at normal distances!

Let's not forget the point of printing -- it is to produce an image
that will faithfully reproduce the photograph when viewed at a
reasonable distance. If you can't see dots and banding at normal
viewing distance, they don't matter!
 
You make very good arguments for your point. Also I am aware that I suffer from what I have heaerd discribed as the love of "over saturated" photos. To me the Epson prints were washed out to the point of being totally unacceptable (we are getting reprints which should be better.) while others rated their color as very good!

Frank
I am not going to try to convince you that you should care more
about dots and banding than apparent resolution. I am just stating
that the group which is biased against dots and banding appears to
not have been represented in the evaluation group.

The one set of pictures that had the most affect on me was the
oversharpened eye on Frank Nichol's 3rd evaluation page. The S9000
oversharpened image had splotches of color in the skin area but the
Kokak 8500 did not. It shows me that the S9000 has lots of false
sharpness (edges) where there should be none. Human eyes work the
same way as autofocus on a camera. We believe something is in
sharp focus when the contrast is at maximum. Most people will pick
the S9000 oversharpened eye picture as having higher resolution and
sharper, even though the texture on the skin around they eye is
completely false and inaccurate to the original image. The Kodak
8500 oversharpened eye still have very little contrast over skin
around the eye and tends to look out of focus, but it is the far
more accurate picture.

Charles Anstey
The evaluators seemed to have a heavy bias towards inkjets. I
cannot understand how the S9000 can even be considered in the same
league as the Epson and dye subs when the dots and banding are so
easily seen on all of S9000 the scans, even the low res ones.
I was afraid of this.

The scans are deliberately blown up to the point where you CAN see
dots and banding. Remember, 11x is a VERY HIGH magnification -- it
is literally like staring at the print through a high-powered
loupe! The "dots and banding" are barely discernable on the 4x
scans -- which are like holding up the print a few inches in front
of your face in a very strong light.

Viewers of the site never had the chance to hold the pages in their
hands and look for themselves at the "dots and banding" of the
print. The closest you can come to this experience on the site is
to look at the comparison of the whole test image. The Canon's way
of laying down ink creates the "micro banding" effect that people
talk about -- but it actually improves the sharpness of the image
when viewed at normal distances!

Let's not forget the point of printing -- it is to produce an image
that will faithfully reproduce the photograph when viewed at a
reasonable distance. If you can't see dots and banding at normal
viewing distance, they don't matter!
--
I plan on living forever - so far so good!
 
Charles,

Thanks for the comments! I hope you like your D60 as much as I like it.

I wrote a long reply to your message, but Dpreview apparently did not like it, so here are the highlights:
  • I personally never thought I would sway onto a inkjet pritner for all the problems and time involved. My first choices were Kodak 8500 and Oly P400. The S9000 turned out FOR ME to be the best value (cost vs quality). I will have a hybrid system of printing tho, as explained on my review. The S9000 requires time to calibrate. I'm very impressed with my out -of-the-box first print (which was the target).
  • The 8500 softness, looking at normal distance was more troubling to me than the inkjet doting/ banding viewed at normal distance. I expect another 8500 from another user who claims are sample was way to soft (see my post above).
  • If you want I can send you a sample, or the whole box, if you're willing to pay for expenses. But it may take a while since not all of us have reviewed it.
Alfred.
I am not going to try to convince you that you should care more
about dots and banding than apparent resolution. I am just stating
that the group which is biased against dots and banding appears to
not have been represented in the evaluation group.

The one set of pictures that had the most affect on me was the
oversharpened eye on Frank Nichol's 3rd evaluation page. The S9000
oversharpened image had splotches of color in the skin area but the
Kokak 8500 did not. It shows me that the S9000 has lots of false
sharpness (edges) where there should be none. Human eyes work the
same way as autofocus on a camera. We believe something is in
sharp focus when the contrast is at maximum. Most people will pick
the S9000 oversharpened eye picture as having higher resolution and
sharper, even though the texture on the skin around they eye is
completely false and inaccurate to the original image. The Kodak
8500 oversharpened eye still have very little contrast over skin
around the eye and tends to look out of focus, but it is the far
more accurate picture.

Charles Anstey
The evaluators seemed to have a heavy bias towards inkjets. I
cannot understand how the S9000 can even be considered in the same
league as the Epson and dye subs when the dots and banding are so
easily seen on all of S9000 the scans, even the low res ones.
I was afraid of this.

The scans are deliberately blown up to the point where you CAN see
dots and banding. Remember, 11x is a VERY HIGH magnification -- it
is literally like staring at the print through a high-powered
loupe! The "dots and banding" are barely discernable on the 4x
scans -- which are like holding up the print a few inches in front
of your face in a very strong light.

Viewers of the site never had the chance to hold the pages in their
hands and look for themselves at the "dots and banding" of the
print. The closest you can come to this experience on the site is
to look at the comparison of the whole test image. The Canon's way
of laying down ink creates the "micro banding" effect that people
talk about -- but it actually improves the sharpness of the image
when viewed at normal distances!

Let's not forget the point of printing -- it is to produce an image
that will faithfully reproduce the photograph when viewed at a
reasonable distance. If you can't see dots and banding at normal
viewing distance, they don't matter!
 
Thank you all for your kind respones. What I am really hoping for is that you will receive some HP7x50 prints and they will evaluate closer to the Epson 2200 for dots and banding than to the S9000. Then I can spend $180 on a printer while I wait and research more before spending $700+.

Charles Anstey
 
rjcolins!

Thank you, you are a champ!

How many do you have of this proofing paper? At least 2? Or one 13x19 piece, perhaps? If so, Perhaps we can arrange that you send it to Bill Waterson. Unfortunately I have a cp1700, which is built like a designjet but is only using four-color, and not six-color like the 10ps.

What do you think of this idea?
I still have the sample proofing paper sent with my designjet 10ps
you are welcome to it.
I will be the first one to send you the prints IF I have a
designjet 10ps! I have a 'distant' cousin, the cp1700, a four-color
system.

I wonder if Bill will have any problem at all printing another
sample using, say, HP PPPP? I know designjet 10ps works BEST with
the proofing papers, but those are quite expensive.

Bill, are you reading this post? Do you want me to 'sponsor' the
proofing papers for you (like I order through HP shopping and ask
the delivery to send it to your residence, while you make prints of
them?)...

Please let me know, Bill, I will be glad to help.

Or... Calling ALL designjet 10ps users out there (I know there are
not many), if you can contribute to this, please help, using HP OEM
papers, the new HP PPPP is of great interest, partly I have not
personally seen prints done it myself...
Fotografer, I would really like to see another sample of the
Designjet 10PS. I have finished my take on the whole thing and
emailed it to Frank to post on the web site tonight. My take on the
10ps is (cut from my evaluation):

-------------------

HP Designjet 10ps

The image

This was another printer that I was very anxious to get a print
sample from. The printer’s spec with built-in color calibration,
large ink cartridges with printhead built-in (disposable) to it
sounded very nice. Plus it’s an HP printer, which I always had luck
with. The best of the inkjets, without its hassles. However this
print disappointed me the most. The print pattern and color are so
far out of wack, that I assume I got a print from a printer that is
defective, or printed on incompatible paper (Epson). I was very
gentle on the scoring on this printer considering the print.

This is why on my very original post I had aimed for getting 2
prints from each printer from 2 different sources. Should something
like this happen I would know there was some problem with that
specific printer. Since I only got one sample (still hope to see
another), I can’t really say much else about the print.

--------------------

So feel free to send one if you have a 10ps!

Alfred
--
Fotografer
--
Fotografer
 
It is in the mail. I also sent a print of that part of the pic you have on your responce to the 8500 and I can read the writing on mine. I ued PS7 to resize both to 10" high and set the DPI to 314 but nothing more. I only used the the driver that came with the 8500. The settings are Sharpining set to high, Enhancement set to on. No brightness or contrast changes. Gamma +3, Red -4, Green +2,and Blue-3. I wrote these setting on the back of the prints. The post office said he'd get them by Saturday. Have no idea why they would be so differnt as to softness/sharpness. But will say that if mine looked as soft as that I'd send it back. Just had a thought. Purhaps he left the DPI at 72. I think that would make the print really soft as the 8500 uses 314 DPI.
hoggy... :0)
Alfred
http://www.theNichols.net/Printer_Eval

comments and suggestions always welcome

Alfred
Alfred Voegels would like to call your attention to an evaluation
of print samples from several of today’s popular photo printers.
The evaluation started here at dpreview in the thread

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=3126587

where Alfred decided that in order to make an informed buying
decision he would ask readers of dpreview to send him some samples
of their printers. This call for samples resulted in several
volunteers sending in samples and some of us reviewed and evaluated
those samples. The result of this evaluation is available online in
a web site we created for this purpose.

WE DO NOT CLAIM THIS EVALUATION IS SCIENTIFIC OR HAS ANY MERIT
WHAT-SO-EVER. IT IS NOT OUR INTENTION TO SAY THAT ONE PRINTER IS
BETTER THAN ANOTHER PRINTER. IT IS OUR INTENTION TO SAY WHICH
PRINTER SAMPLES WE LIKED BEST AND WHY. WHAT CONCLUSION YOU DRAW
FROM THESE DISCUSSIONS AND SAMPLES IS COMPLETELY UP TO YOU. ALL
RATINGS SHOWN ARE SUBJECTIVE AND REPRESENTS EACH INDIVIDUAL”S
OPINION ONLY.

You are cordially invited to visit our website and draw your own
conclusions about the samples presented there…

http://www.theNichols.net/Printer_Eval

--
I plan on living forever - so far so good!
 
That would be me and it's on the way. Should be there Sat at Franks
hog.... :o)
Thanks for the comments! I hope you like your D60 as much as I like
it.

I wrote a long reply to your message, but Dpreview apparently did
not like it, so here are the highlights:
  • I personally never thought I would sway onto a inkjet pritner for
all the problems and time involved. My first choices were Kodak
8500 and Oly P400. The S9000 turned out FOR ME to be the best value
(cost vs quality). I will have a hybrid system of printing tho, as
explained on my review. The S9000 requires time to calibrate. I'm
very impressed with my out -of-the-box first print (which was the
target).
  • The 8500 softness, looking at normal distance was more troubling
to me than the inkjet doting/ banding viewed at normal distance. I
expect another 8500 from another user who claims are sample was way
to soft (see my post above).
  • If you want I can send you a sample, or the whole box, if you're
willing to pay for expenses. But it may take a while since not all
of us have reviewed it.

Alfred.
I am not going to try to convince you that you should care more
about dots and banding than apparent resolution. I am just stating
that the group which is biased against dots and banding appears to
not have been represented in the evaluation group.

The one set of pictures that had the most affect on me was the
oversharpened eye on Frank Nichol's 3rd evaluation page. The S9000
oversharpened image had splotches of color in the skin area but the
Kokak 8500 did not. It shows me that the S9000 has lots of false
sharpness (edges) where there should be none. Human eyes work the
same way as autofocus on a camera. We believe something is in
sharp focus when the contrast is at maximum. Most people will pick
the S9000 oversharpened eye picture as having higher resolution and
sharper, even though the texture on the skin around they eye is
completely false and inaccurate to the original image. The Kodak
8500 oversharpened eye still have very little contrast over skin
around the eye and tends to look out of focus, but it is the far
more accurate picture.

Charles Anstey
The evaluators seemed to have a heavy bias towards inkjets. I
cannot understand how the S9000 can even be considered in the same
league as the Epson and dye subs when the dots and banding are so
easily seen on all of S9000 the scans, even the low res ones.
I was afraid of this.

The scans are deliberately blown up to the point where you CAN see
dots and banding. Remember, 11x is a VERY HIGH magnification -- it
is literally like staring at the print through a high-powered
loupe! The "dots and banding" are barely discernable on the 4x
scans -- which are like holding up the print a few inches in front
of your face in a very strong light.

Viewers of the site never had the chance to hold the pages in their
hands and look for themselves at the "dots and banding" of the
print. The closest you can come to this experience on the site is
to look at the comparison of the whole test image. The Canon's way
of laying down ink creates the "micro banding" effect that people
talk about -- but it actually improves the sharpness of the image
when viewed at normal distances!

Let's not forget the point of printing -- it is to produce an image
that will faithfully reproduce the photograph when viewed at a
reasonable distance. If you can't see dots and banding at normal
viewing distance, they don't matter!
 
Joe,
The scans are deliberately blown up to the point where you CAN see
dots and banding. Remember, 11x is a VERY HIGH magnification -- it
is literally like staring at the print through a high-powered
loupe! The "dots and banding" are barely discernable on the 4x
scans -- which are like holding up the print a few inches in front
of your face in a very strong light.
I concur. I have seen 'banding' while all my team members in HP couldn't. This is partly because I am wired that wat ;) and because I am constantly in the middle of two bright-as-daylight light box on either side of me. Under such intense (though indoor) lights, all patterns come up, and unless you enjoy looking at pictures under a bright summer afternoon, you would not normally see those dots or micro-banding.

Also, Frank's samples are a little 'unusual' (more exaggerated but typical patterns made by a Canon), partly, I think, because he is using third-party papers? I am speculating here, of course... And I am NOT a Canon user myself, just have seen a lot of prints to confirm what is said by Joe.
Viewers of the site never had the chance to hold the pages in their
hands and look for themselves at the "dots and banding" of the
print. The closest you can come to this experience on the site is
to look at the comparison of the whole test image. The Canon's way
of laying down ink creates the "micro banding" effect that people
talk about -- but it actually improves the sharpness of the image
when viewed at normal distances!
I may even add that some people at close distance (without loupe) don't see the 'banding' as well. A lot depends on the light conditions. And under normal room illumination, even the dj970C may be pass off as 'continuous' when viewed at normal distance!
Let's not forget the point of printing -- it is to produce an image
that will faithfully reproduce the photograph when viewed at a
reasonable distance. If you can't see dots and banding at normal
viewing distance, they don't matter!
I agree again. And Charles, I am not a Canon supporter, because I NEVER own one (but I have seen the capability up close at work)! :)

--
Fotografer
 
No, I disagree a little. People like Canon at normal viewing distance because they are well-profiled. With careful profilling, Epson will eventually win Canon in in terms of sheer print quality. Epson has the potential ('continuous' tone) of beating the dye-sub in terms of subtle skin tones, and Canon, as far as I can see from the 11x blow-up, has reached its limit (I assume that is quality slide to 1 and not default 2).

That's why HP team has done well with one profiler that makes sure all the colors coming out from the printers in question (Canon, Epson HP) are close to original as possible, then make comparison base on other things. I tell you, color accuracy (and saturation) is one big influence to perceived quality - whatever the 'experts' tell you otherwise.

Don't forget, Joe and Frank are very good with their profiles! :)
From reading the commentaries, it seems that at very high
magnification the Epson reigns supreme. But at normal viewing
distances, it seems a lot of the comments were very positive for
the Canon.

With the above thoughts, I would conclude that the Canon would win
the image quality test when presented to the average person without
any magnification tools.
--
Fotografer
 
It will be better to send it directly to Bill.

His email address is

[email protected]

Can you get in touch with him? You can send the print either to me or Frank.

Alfred.
Thank you, you are a champ!

How many do you have of this proofing paper? At least 2? Or one
13x19 piece, perhaps? If so, Perhaps we can arrange that you send
it to Bill Waterson. Unfortunately I have a cp1700, which is built
like a designjet but is only using four-color, and not six-color
like the 10ps.

What do you think of this idea?
I still have the sample proofing paper sent with my designjet 10ps
you are welcome to it.
I will be the first one to send you the prints IF I have a
designjet 10ps! I have a 'distant' cousin, the cp1700, a four-color
system.

I wonder if Bill will have any problem at all printing another
sample using, say, HP PPPP? I know designjet 10ps works BEST with
the proofing papers, but those are quite expensive.

Bill, are you reading this post? Do you want me to 'sponsor' the
proofing papers for you (like I order through HP shopping and ask
the delivery to send it to your residence, while you make prints of
them?)...

Please let me know, Bill, I will be glad to help.

Or... Calling ALL designjet 10ps users out there (I know there are
not many), if you can contribute to this, please help, using HP OEM
papers, the new HP PPPP is of great interest, partly I have not
personally seen prints done it myself...
Fotografer, I would really like to see another sample of the
Designjet 10PS. I have finished my take on the whole thing and
emailed it to Frank to post on the web site tonight. My take on the
10ps is (cut from my evaluation):

-------------------

HP Designjet 10ps

The image

This was another printer that I was very anxious to get a print
sample from. The printer’s spec with built-in color calibration,
large ink cartridges with printhead built-in (disposable) to it
sounded very nice. Plus it’s an HP printer, which I always had luck
with. The best of the inkjets, without its hassles. However this
print disappointed me the most. The print pattern and color are so
far out of wack, that I assume I got a print from a printer that is
defective, or printed on incompatible paper (Epson). I was very
gentle on the scoring on this printer considering the print.

This is why on my very original post I had aimed for getting 2
prints from each printer from 2 different sources. Should something
like this happen I would know there was some problem with that
specific printer. Since I only got one sample (still hope to see
another), I can’t really say much else about the print.

--------------------

So feel free to send one if you have a 10ps!

Alfred
--
Fotografer
--
Fotografer
 
Fotografer,

I think we all agreed that the 2200 has the better print target of the non-continuous tone printers. Ref our ratings:

http://www.thenichols.net/html/ratings.html

I also agree that the S9000 is at its limit, that's why tweaking with the printer is critical (it's a good image learning process as well).

But doesn't the Epson have a technology that eventhough produces better image is more prone for clogging (Do not know this for sure, need more research)?

Also one can't forget all the other stuff that comes with the 2200, such as metamerism and bronzing. I think our scores were a little unfair for including ratings on micro-banding and doting, but not on other things that its better at. We just didn't want to make the scoring process endless. There's nothing like seeing the real thing tho.

Alfred.
That's why HP team has done well with one profiler that makes sure
all the colors coming out from the printers in question (Canon,
Epson HP) are close to original as possible, then make comparison
base on other things. I tell you, color accuracy (and saturation)
is one big influence to perceived quality - whatever the 'experts'
tell you otherwise.

Don't forget, Joe and Frank are very good with their profiles! :)
From reading the commentaries, it seems that at very high
magnification the Epson reigns supreme. But at normal viewing
distances, it seems a lot of the comments were very positive for
the Canon.

With the above thoughts, I would conclude that the Canon would win
the image quality test when presented to the average person without
any magnification tools.
--
Fotografer
 
I believe that I have 2 semigloss, 2 gloss and 2 matte came as a sample pack. Sure I can send it to Bill Waterson.
Thank you, you are a champ!

How many do you have of this proofing paper? At least 2? Or one
13x19 piece, perhaps? If so, Perhaps we can arrange that you send
it to Bill Waterson. Unfortunately I have a cp1700, which is built
like a designjet but is only using four-color, and not six-color
like the 10ps.

What do you think of this idea?
I still have the sample proofing paper sent with my designjet 10ps
you are welcome to it.
I will be the first one to send you the prints IF I have a
designjet 10ps! I have a 'distant' cousin, the cp1700, a four-color
system.

I wonder if Bill will have any problem at all printing another
sample using, say, HP PPPP? I know designjet 10ps works BEST with
the proofing papers, but those are quite expensive.

Bill, are you reading this post? Do you want me to 'sponsor' the
proofing papers for you (like I order through HP shopping and ask
the delivery to send it to your residence, while you make prints of
them?)...

Please let me know, Bill, I will be glad to help.

Or... Calling ALL designjet 10ps users out there (I know there are
not many), if you can contribute to this, please help, using HP OEM
papers, the new HP PPPP is of great interest, partly I have not
personally seen prints done it myself...
Fotografer, I would really like to see another sample of the
Designjet 10PS. I have finished my take on the whole thing and
emailed it to Frank to post on the web site tonight. My take on the
10ps is (cut from my evaluation):

-------------------

HP Designjet 10ps

The image

This was another printer that I was very anxious to get a print
sample from. The printer’s spec with built-in color calibration,
large ink cartridges with printhead built-in (disposable) to it
sounded very nice. Plus it’s an HP printer, which I always had luck
with. The best of the inkjets, without its hassles. However this
print disappointed me the most. The print pattern and color are so
far out of wack, that I assume I got a print from a printer that is
defective, or printed on incompatible paper (Epson). I was very
gentle on the scoring on this printer considering the print.

This is why on my very original post I had aimed for getting 2
prints from each printer from 2 different sources. Should something
like this happen I would know there was some problem with that
specific printer. Since I only got one sample (still hope to see
another), I can’t really say much else about the print.

--------------------

So feel free to send one if you have a 10ps!

Alfred
--
Fotografer
--
Fotografer
 
Oh and HP proofing paper only come 13 x 19.
Thank you, you are a champ!

How many do you have of this proofing paper? At least 2? Or one
13x19 piece, perhaps? If so, Perhaps we can arrange that you send
it to Bill Waterson. Unfortunately I have a cp1700, which is built
like a designjet but is only using four-color, and not six-color
like the 10ps.

What do you think of this idea?
I still have the sample proofing paper sent with my designjet 10ps
you are welcome to it.
I will be the first one to send you the prints IF I have a
designjet 10ps! I have a 'distant' cousin, the cp1700, a four-color
system.

I wonder if Bill will have any problem at all printing another
sample using, say, HP PPPP? I know designjet 10ps works BEST with
the proofing papers, but those are quite expensive.

Bill, are you reading this post? Do you want me to 'sponsor' the
proofing papers for you (like I order through HP shopping and ask
the delivery to send it to your residence, while you make prints of
them?)...

Please let me know, Bill, I will be glad to help.

Or... Calling ALL designjet 10ps users out there (I know there are
not many), if you can contribute to this, please help, using HP OEM
papers, the new HP PPPP is of great interest, partly I have not
personally seen prints done it myself...
Fotografer, I would really like to see another sample of the
Designjet 10PS. I have finished my take on the whole thing and
emailed it to Frank to post on the web site tonight. My take on the
10ps is (cut from my evaluation):

-------------------

HP Designjet 10ps

The image

This was another printer that I was very anxious to get a print
sample from. The printer’s spec with built-in color calibration,
large ink cartridges with printhead built-in (disposable) to it
sounded very nice. Plus it’s an HP printer, which I always had luck
with. The best of the inkjets, without its hassles. However this
print disappointed me the most. The print pattern and color are so
far out of wack, that I assume I got a print from a printer that is
defective, or printed on incompatible paper (Epson). I was very
gentle on the scoring on this printer considering the print.

This is why on my very original post I had aimed for getting 2
prints from each printer from 2 different sources. Should something
like this happen I would know there was some problem with that
specific printer. Since I only got one sample (still hope to see
another), I can’t really say much else about the print.

--------------------

So feel free to send one if you have a 10ps!

Alfred
--
Fotografer
--
Fotografer
 
Oh dear, Alfred,

I hope I don't make an enemy out of you! I don't deny Canon printers are capable of stunning prints. I only point to Brian that on sheer print quality alone, Epson will win hands down. Yes, they have bronzing, which could be irritating when people use glossy paper stock, but we must remember that in terms of fade resistance, Canon will not be able to compete with the Epon top-end. Then again, I speak about experience with the 1280 (sp895?) and the s800, not 2200 or s900x...

I agree there are just too many factors to consider, and if you have to include all, then there is no end to the evaluation. You set out an objective and based on seeing it yourself you choose the one that suit you best. I think that's the most important.

I agree Epson still has the clogging issues. Canon, I can see, if one uses the OEM (which if I am not wrong, is what you intend to do), will not have clogging to contend with. But Canon inks are known to dry-up if left idle. This is so with the 'older' models. But when we did not use the Canon s800 for three months and someone in HP (who has a secret crush on Canon output!) for the kick of it wanted to use the printer, some of the inks didn't work!

Granted, the lab was at a constantly low humidity (dry) and this could contribute to the problems). But in Asia Pacific regions, there seem to be more complaints of the Canon low end printers with inks drying up as little as 2 weeks idle. I would say, 6 weeks is the limit. So, if you run some prints every now and again, I should think this problem will not bug you. And I also believe the new Canon s8xx/s900x has somewhat address this problems already...

I am grateful of your hard work, and in showing us your evaluation.
Fotografer,

I think we all agreed that the 2200 has the better print target of
the non-continuous tone printers. Ref our ratings:

http://www.thenichols.net/html/ratings.html

I also agree that the S9000 is at its limit, that's why tweaking
with the printer is critical (it's a good image learning process as
well).

But doesn't the Epson have a technology that eventhough produces
better image is more prone for clogging (Do not know this for sure,
need more research)?

Also one can't forget all the other stuff that comes with the 2200,
such as metamerism and bronzing. I think our scores were a little
unfair for including ratings on micro-banding and doting, but not
on other things that its better at. We just didn't want to make the
scoring process endless. There's nothing like seeing the real thing
tho.

Alfred.
--
Fotografer
 
Thanks, rjcollins!

You are very generous. I hope Bill will read this. He has yet reply my personal e-mail to him as of now... I am sure he will be delighted to use them to print the DPI target.

Bill, if you are reading this, remember to slice the proofing paper into two, and if necessary run auto-calibration before using them. And Bill, select the proper output ICC with respect to the paper used. And remember if you run auto-calibration with BEST mode, don't use PREMIUM mode when printing. Use the same setting to print!
Oh and HP proofing paper only come 13 x 19.
--
Fotografer
 
fotografer,

I sent Bill Waterson an e-mail requesting his address, will get it in the mail tomorrow once I get his address.
You are very generous. I hope Bill will read this. He has yet reply
my personal e-mail to him as of now... I am sure he will be
delighted to use them to print the DPI target.

Bill, if you are reading this, remember to slice the proofing paper
into two, and if necessary run auto-calibration before using them.
And Bill, select the proper output ICC with respect to the paper
used. And remember if you run auto-calibration with BEST mode,
don't use PREMIUM mode when printing. Use the same setting to print!
Oh and HP proofing paper only come 13 x 19.
--
Fotografer
 
Fotografer,

There has yet to be the day where I have an enemy from a web forum ;)

Sorry if I was dry. I just tend to type to fast, never intended to sound in disagreement.

Thanks for the insight and yes, I'll only be using OEM ink. My calcs don't make the CIS worth it for me. I'll definetly print more often than every six weeks...This is a worry for me as where I live humidity is 30% summer and around 15% at winter, BUT I'll be installing a humidifier on my furnace for constant 35-40%. Thanks for the reminder.

Alfred
I hope I don't make an enemy out of you! I don't deny Canon
printers are capable of stunning prints. I only point to Brian that
on sheer print quality alone, Epson will win hands down. Yes, they
have bronzing, which could be irritating when people use glossy
paper stock, but we must remember that in terms of fade resistance,
Canon will not be able to compete with the Epon top-end. Then
again, I speak about experience with the 1280 (sp895?) and the
s800, not 2200 or s900x...

I agree there are just too many factors to consider, and if you
have to include all, then there is no end to the evaluation. You
set out an objective and based on seeing it yourself you choose
the one that suit you best. I think that's the most important.

I agree Epson still has the clogging issues. Canon, I can see, if
one uses the OEM (which if I am not wrong, is what you intend to
do), will not have clogging to contend with. But Canon inks are
known to dry-up if left idle. This is so with the 'older' models.
But when we did not use the Canon s800 for three months and someone
in HP (who has a secret crush on Canon output!) for the kick of it
wanted to use the printer, some of the inks didn't work!

Granted, the lab was at a constantly low humidity (dry) and this
could contribute to the problems). But in Asia Pacific regions,
there seem to be more complaints of the Canon low end printers with
inks drying up as little as 2 weeks idle. I would say, 6 weeks is
the limit. So, if you run some prints every now and again, I should
think this problem will not bug you. And I also believe the new
Canon s8xx/s900x has somewhat address this problems already...

I am grateful of your hard work, and in showing us your evaluation.
Fotografer,

I think we all agreed that the 2200 has the better print target of
the non-continuous tone printers. Ref our ratings:

http://www.thenichols.net/html/ratings.html

I also agree that the S9000 is at its limit, that's why tweaking
with the printer is critical (it's a good image learning process as
well).

But doesn't the Epson have a technology that eventhough produces
better image is more prone for clogging (Do not know this for sure,
need more research)?

Also one can't forget all the other stuff that comes with the 2200,
such as metamerism and bronzing. I think our scores were a little
unfair for including ratings on micro-banding and doting, but not
on other things that its better at. We just didn't want to make the
scoring process endless. There's nothing like seeing the real thing
tho.

Alfred.
--
Fotografer
 
Some questions from your email:

1 -How much does this paper cost?

2 - If the 10 ps is a proffing printer is it reasonable to use it as an everyday photo printer?
3 - What other papers will it work well with?

Alfred
You are very generous. I hope Bill will read this. He has yet reply
my personal e-mail to him as of now... I am sure he will be
delighted to use them to print the DPI target.

Bill, if you are reading this, remember to slice the proofing paper
into two, and if necessary run auto-calibration before using them.
And Bill, select the proper output ICC with respect to the paper
used. And remember if you run auto-calibration with BEST mode,
don't use PREMIUM mode when printing. Use the same setting to print!
Oh and HP proofing paper only come 13 x 19.
--
Fotografer
 

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