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Using a closeup tube on my 400 5.6 ???

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Fish Chris

Fish Chris

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Since my 400 5.6 is my only L-glass (at the moment, although I plan to have more great glass in the future) I'm wondering if a closeup tube might help me to get a little more use out of this lens.

More specifically, I have lots of Hummingbirds in my yard which I can quite easily get within 5 or 6 feet of..... but my 400 5.6 has a minimum focusing distance of 11.5 feet.

So, I'm pretty sure the right tube would allow me to get quite a bit closer (how much ?) but in doing so, would it also allow me to fill any more of my frame with a smaller subject, such as a Hummer (than I could without the tube, from 11.5 feet) ? Yes, I know their are probably lots of better, more closeup lenses for this task.... But since I already have a 400 5.6, and no extra $$$ for another lens with a shorter minimum focusing distance....

Please teach me a few things about lens tubes....

Thank you,
Fish
--

 
Fish Chris said:
So, I'm pretty sure the right tube would allow me to get quite a bit closer (how much ?) but in doing so, would it also allow me to fill any more of my frame with a smaller subject, such as a Hummer (than I could without the tube, from 11.5 feet) ? Yes, I know their are probably lots of better, more closeup lenses for this task.... But since I already have a 400 5.6, and no extra $$$ for another lens with a shorter minimum focusing distance....
Click to expand...
If I didn't mistaken from 5-6 feet magnification would be something like 1:4 but you would need a lot of tubes 0,5-1 feet.
 
I use a 400 5.6 for butterfly pictures. Unfortunately for you it's not a canon 400 5.6 but sigma's (400 5.6 HSM telemacro). It's not my intention to rub in the fact that my sigma has a 1.6meter MFD. But I think that's about the focus-distance you will need with a 400 to take butterfly/humingbird pictures.









(you can download a bigger version (1024px) by clicking on my gallery and clicking on the image)

Someone else can probably tell you how many mm of tubes you'll need in order to get to get this magnification. I would also like to ad that the big advantage of shooting "macro's" with a long lens is that it is easier to get a nice even background. The obvious downside being of-course the high shutter-speeds needed in order to get a sharp shot or a tripod....

Greetings,

Jeroen
iljai said:
Fish Chris said:
So, I'm pretty sure the right tube would allow me to get quite a bit closer (how much ?) but in doing so, would it also allow me to fill any more of my frame with a smaller subject, such as a Hummer (than I could without the tube, from 11.5 feet) ? Yes, I know their are probably lots of better, more closeup lenses for this task.... But since I already have a 400 5.6, and no extra $$$ for another lens with a shorter minimum focusing distance....
Click to expand...
If I didn't mistaken from 5-6 feet magnification would be something like 1:4 but you would need a lot of tubes 0,5-1 feet.
Click to expand...
--
FZee50, Raynoxx m250, MSN 202, teecon 17

Metzzz 48AF1+mecabouncee, Canon 30D, sigmaa 4oo 5.6 HSM APO macroo, Tammy 28-75 2.8, tammy 55-200, 5o I.8 MkII, Kenkoo 1.4 300 pro DG
 
If I have got my maths right a 25mm tube on a 400mm lens would give you a magnification of 0.0625. But of course it will reduce the minimum focus distance, by how much I don't know, which would mean you will be closer to the subject. The result should be a larger image of what you are trying to photograph. As being closer will increase image size and you have a tiny bit of magnification helping you.

The amount of magnification is worked out as length of tube divided by focal length. Which is why for macro photography extension tubes are used on shorter focal length lenses. The main advantage of using one on a longer focal length telephoto lens is to reduce the minimum focal distance. I don't know if there is a formula which works out what the new minimum and maximum focal distance is for any given lens and tube?

Sorry I can't fully answer your question but I hope there is some useful info there?

Phil
 
I did this back in 06 with a friends set of tubes which were I believe Kenkos, perhaps Adorama I don't recall which but I know they were not Canon's tubes. It works fine and you should have no problem decreasing the minimum focus distance with your 400 5.6. Here were my results with the 400 5.6 and a standard set of tubes for one time that I did this. So a set of tubes will let you do what you would like to do with your hummers.







--
LT
 
With your lens, to get say 0.25x magnification (a quarter life size = 90mm on wide side for cropped camera or 144mm for FF camera) you will need 56mm of extension.

The formula is e = (m' - m) x f

e = required extension
m' = required magnification
m = inherent magnification of the lens
f = focal length

The subject distance in the above example will be 1.6m for crop camera & 1.0m for FF camera.

A set of Kenco tubes (12, 20 & 36) will give you the required extension. If you need lesser magnification (wider frame) then use lesser extension.

--
Gautam
 
I want to play with this soon.

Lamalfi, I am going to save that list. I will probably be shooting for a 7 1/2 to 6 ft viewing distance.

Thanks again,
Fish
--

 
Fish Chris said:
Since my 400 5.6 is my only L-glass (at the moment, although I plan to have more great glass in the future) I'm wondering if a closeup tube might help me to get a little more use out of this lens.

More specifically, I have lots of Hummingbirds in my yard which I can quite easily get within 5 or 6 feet of..... but my 400 5.6 has a minimum focusing distance of 11.5 feet.

So, I'm pretty sure the right tube would allow me to get quite a bit closer (how much ?) but in doing so, would it also allow me to fill any more of my frame with a smaller subject, such as a Hummer (than I could without the tube, from 11.5 feet) ? Yes, I know their are probably lots of better, more closeup lenses for this task.... But since I already have a 400 5.6, and no extra $$$ for another lens with a shorter minimum focusing distance....

Please teach me a few things about lens tubes....
Click to expand...
The Canon Extension Tube pamphlet says, for the EF25 II and the 400mm 5.6L:

Focusing Distance Ranges: 8.1' to 21.7' (in mm = 2460 to 6610)
Working Distance is from 7' to 20.6' (in mm = 2132 to 6282)

The mfd is one reason that people shooting humming birds use the 100-400L or the 300mm f4L which have closer MFD's.
 
...the minimum working distance decreases from 3.5 m to about 1.8m,
and the maximum FOV achievable is 67.5mm (horizontally, on 1.6 crop) -
which would be already too tight for a hummer in flight, I guess;

as to AF - I use 400/5.6L + tubes a lot, and with not too bad a light
AF is passably quick, esp. if FTM is used to help a bit; the real difference
though, in getting good results is to use a Better Beamer on external
flash if one is shooting free hand:



http://www.flickr.com/photos/qmusaget/3596227520/meta/

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
wildlife, macro, B&W, and 'interactive' street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
Doable. I haven't for some time because I also had a 300/4 which filled that sort of role but here's one with the 400/5.6 on a 20D about 3 1/2 years ago using Kenko tubes, though I don't remember how many. Not too sharp but you get the idea.

 
The Canon 500D close-up lens is more suitable for reducing MFD with longer focal lengths. It screws onto the end of your telephoto lens like a filter.
 
MartG said:
The Canon 500D close-up lens is more suitable for reducing MFD with longer focal lengths. It screws onto the end of your telephoto lens like a filter.
Click to expand...
indeed it does that, the problem is that with the 500D MFD might be
too short for many applications (like shooting skittish hummers in
flight) - the "500" in the name means that it will have MFD of 50cm
only,

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
wildlife, macro, B&W, and 'interactive' street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
Don't hesitate, get yourself a set of Kenko tubes, they will last a life-time, will fit with any lens and you will have fun playing with them.

You might find the focussing a bit slow, and it may be easier to focuss manually to get the shots.
 
jpr2 said:
MartG said:
The Canon 500D close-up lens is more suitable for reducing MFD with longer focal lengths. It screws onto the end of your telephoto lens like a filter.
Click to expand...
indeed it does that, the problem is that with the 500D MFD might be
too short for many applications (like shooting skittish hummers in
flight) - the "500" in the name means that it will have MFD of 50cm
only,
Click to expand...
To clarify - that's a maximum working distance (lens to subject) of 500 mm. MFD normally means minimum focusing distance and the 500 mm is neither minimum nor focusing distance.

But I agree, the 500D is not a good suggestion for this application.
 
Steve Balcombe said:
To clarify - that's a maximum working distance (lens to subject) of 500 mm. MFD normally means minimum focusing distance and the 500 mm is neither minimum nor focusing distance.

But I agree, the 500D is not a good suggestion for this application.
Click to expand...
Steve,

thank you for the remark - it is indeed not this simple. To start with
one needs to define what the focusing distance means; and as 500D
is a general purpose close-up, but also various lenses do differ by their
front glass distance to the sensor/film plane even for the same FL; the
safest way is just to define FD as the distance from a sensor to subject;

if so, then for various lenses + 500D, rough measurements
(give or take few millimeters):
  • 400/5.6L: at MFD 76cm, at inf. 81.5cm;
  • 100/2.8L IS: at MFD 28cm, at inf. 68cm;
  • 100/2.8 Elmarit-R APO macro: at MFD 27cm, at inf. 68cm;
  • 20/2.8 Zeiss Flektogon: at MFD 18.5cm, at inf. 67cm;
should we know where is the exact nodal point of each lens
located, then it might be indeed very close to 50cm in every case;

I'm sure someone will be able to give as some equations to
calculate it, but then some additional data might be necessary
as well,

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
wildlife, macro, B&W, and 'interactive' street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
jpr2 said:
Steve Balcombe said:
To clarify - that's a maximum working distance (lens to subject) of 500 mm. MFD normally means minimum focusing distance and the 500 mm is neither minimum nor focusing distance.

But I agree, the 500D is not a good suggestion for this application.
Click to expand...
Steve,

thank you for the remark - it is indeed not this simple. To start with
one needs to define what the focusing distance means;
Click to expand...
Not at all, since there is a well established convention in photography that "focusing distance" is from film/sensor to subject.

"Working distance", on the other hand, is the clear space between the front of the lens and the subject, and it is this quantity which is 500 mm maximum for a +2 dioptre supplementary lens, regardless of which lens it is mounted on.
jpr2 said:
and as 500D
is a general purpose close-up, but also various lenses do differ by their
front glass distance to the sensor/film plane even for the same FL; the
safest way is just to define FD as the distance from a sensor to subject;
Click to expand...
There is no debate to be had here, that is as I said the long-established definition.
jpr2 said:
if so, then for various lenses + 500D, rough measurements
(give or take few millimeters):
  • 400/5.6L: at MFD 76cm, at inf. 81.5cm;
  • 100/2.8L IS: at MFD 28cm, at inf. 68cm;
  • 100/2.8 Elmarit-R APO macro: at MFD 27cm, at inf. 68cm;
  • 20/2.8 Zeiss Flektogon: at MFD 18.5cm, at inf. 67cm;
should we know where is the exact nodal point of each lens
located, then it might be indeed very close to 50cm in every case;
Click to expand...
No, the 500 mm is NOT measured from the nodal point of the main lens, it is from the middle of the supplementary lens - so close to the front as to make no practical difference.
 
Steve Balcombe said:
Steve Balcombe said:
if so, then for various lenses + 500D, rough measurements
(give or take few millimeters):
  • 400/5.6L: at MFD 76cm, at inf. 81.5cm;
  • 100/2.8L IS: at MFD 28cm, at inf. 68cm;
  • 100/2.8 Elmarit-R APO macro: at MFD 27cm, at inf. 68cm;
  • 20/2.8 Zeiss Flektogon: at MFD 18.5cm, at inf. 67cm;
should we know where is the exact nodal point of each lens
located, then it might be indeed very close to 50cm in every case;
Click to expand...
No, the 500 mm is NOT measured from the nodal point of the main lens,
it is from the middle of the supplementary lens - so close to the front as
to make no practical difference.
Click to expand...
then for ALL four lenses above, the distances measured at MFD (and which
are much less than stated, if we'd take them from the middle of 500d)
are way less than 500mm,

jpr2

--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
wildlife, macro, B&W, and 'interactive' street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
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