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Threat from Samsung for ZS3/TZ7

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ron2000 said:
And it is a Sony!
Click to expand...
Whoop-di-do :)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG#Controversies for a number of reasons why people may be a little bit anti-Sony. Not to mention years of profiteering from their own rip-off proprietary tech (like MemoryStick) instead of cheap commonplace standards like SDHC. One hand in the hardware business and another in the content/media biz - creating a distasteful eagerness to restrict Fair Use via draconian Digital Rights Management. Yuck!

--

Canon A-eighty since 2004 (13,000 shots), Pan.FZ.eighteen (5,000 shots and counting) & Pan.FZ.thirty-eight (29aug09)

 
Shrapnel said:
ron2000 said:
And it is a Sony!
Click to expand...
Whoop-di-do :)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG#Controversies for a number of reasons why people may be a little bit anti-Sony. Not to mention years of profiteering from their own rip-off proprietary tech (like MemoryStick) instead of cheap commonplace standards like SDHC. One hand in the hardware business and another in the content/media biz - creating a distasteful eagerness to restrict Fair Use via draconian Digital Rights Management. Yuck!

--

Canon A-eighty since 2004 (13,000 shots), Pan.FZ.eighteen (5,000 shots and counting) & Pan.FZ.thirty-eight (29aug09)

Click to expand...
Very well put!

I still own some Sony equipment and they've always had some great engineering but like many others I really do not like the company's M.O.

Fear not though, have a gander at this:

(Source: http://www.photorumors.com/ )

"Panasonic will introduced at least two new cameras for PMA. One of them will be a new G model (hinted already last week) and the second one could be the long awaited LX4 (replacement of the very popular Panasonic LX3). There were a lot of previous Panasonic LX4 rumors, but my sources from Asia can only confirm that at least one more, high end, compact camera will be announced with new Lumix G model, but at that point it is not confirmed that it will be the LX4:

I do however have some more details about this new, high end compact Panasonic camera:
  • Full manual control
  • New and improved image stabilization system
  • No RAW mode (? – LX3 did have RAW mode, another reason why this may not be a LX3 replacement). Panasonic may keep the RAW mode only for their GF line.
  • GPS
  • 720p HD video
  • Stereo microphones
  • New digital zoom function: Panasonic will unveil also a new technology that will be related to digital zoom and will make it much more useful
The announcement, based on previous leaks, is expected at the end of January or beginning of February, 2010."

This might well be thye ZS3 successor.
 
Miles Johnson said:
I do however have some more details about this new, high end compact Panasonic camera:
Click to expand...
.

Apart from the fact that I care little for rumours and will only believe it when I see it officially announced, let's indulge in dissecting your list:
Miles Johnson said:
  • Full manual control
Click to expand...
No use for me whatsoever. The current iA and Normal modes of the ZS3 already do better than twiddling with the settings can achieve (most of the time it actually worsens the shot) and its' much quicker to boot.
Miles Johnson said:
  • New and improved image stabilization system
Click to expand...
The already existing O.I.S. works really great, actually, I've been able to shoot sharp pictures at 1/10 sec. at 300 mm and 1/5 sec. at 24 mm so any further improvements would be but "diminishing returns" for me, nice but neither essential nor revolutionary.
Miles Johnson said:
  • No RAW mode (? – LX3 did have RAW mode, another reason why this may not be a LX3 replacement). Panasonic may keep the RAW mode only for their GF line.
Click to expand...
Great. RAW mode is the best way to waste your time playing with the computer instead of going out and taking pics. Spending countless hours pixel-peeping, postprocessing, finding flaws and defects in everything (sharpness, color, gradation, highlights, dynamic range, etc) and trying to get rid of the damn things is not my concept of enjoying photography.
Miles Johnson said:
  • GPS
Click to expand...
No use for me whatsoever. I already own a growing number of devices which do GPS and don't need another one which would do nothing of real use except suck dry the batteries even sooner.
Miles Johnson said:
  • 720p HD video
Click to expand...
The ZS3 already does it, to near perfection, so nothing new here.
Miles Johnson said:
  • Stereo microphones
Click to expand...
The ZS3 already's got them and they work like a treat, so nothing new here.
Miles Johnson said:
  • New digital zoom function: Panasonic will unveil also a new technology that will be related to digital zoom and will make it much more useful
Click to expand...
Have to see what this does and whether it's marketing hype or what. In any case, it doesn't seem to be a precisely revolutionary, deal-making feature by a mile.
Miles Johnson said:
This might well be thye ZS3 successor.
Click to expand...
I hope not, unless the list does include real meat, unlike the above.

-
See my Lumix ZS3 (TZ7) pics at http://www.flickr.com/photos/mirepapa/

.
 
Trensamiro said:
Apart from the fact that I care little for rumours and will only believe it when I see it officially announced, let's indulge in dissecting your list:
Trensamiro said:
  • Full manual control
Click to expand...
No use for me whatsoever. The current iA and Normal modes of the ZS3 already do better than twiddling with the settings can achieve (most of the time it actually worsens the shot) and its' much quicker to boot.
Click to expand...
Extremely well stated. Then there's the fact that probably a majority of those posting pleas for "full manual control" wouldn't know what to do with it if it was offered - judging by the rest of many such posts.

It would be fun to play with for about a week and then forgotten, IMHO.

Anyone who wants to go back to carrying a meter roughly the size of a"TZ-x" camera, and transferring the readings to the TWO manual controls (aperture & shutter speed) available on the film cameras of nostalgic memory (or in most cases, hearsay), is very welcome.

Personally, I'll settle for the - what, dozen? controls on a TZ series camera. Controls such as white balance, +/- EV, auto bracket, various modes........... I lose count. And having to squint for focus in the sacred "Low Light".
Trensamiro said:
Trensamiro said:
  • No RAW mode (? – LX3 did have RAW mode, another reason why this may not be a LX3 replacement). Panasonic may keep the RAW mode only for their GF line.
Click to expand...
Great. RAW mode is the best way to waste your time playing with the computer instead of going out and taking pics. Spending countless hours pixel-peeping, postprocessing, finding flaws and defects in everything (sharpness, color, gradation, highlights, dynamic range, etc) and trying to get rid of the damn things is not my concept of enjoying photography.
Click to expand...
Trensamiro said:
See my Lumix ZS3 (TZ7) pics at http://www.flickr.com/photos/mirepapa/
Click to expand...
You have a wonderful way with words, Sir!

I have long held that RAW is a "gimmick", and I still feel that it's appeal is largely based on "RAW" sounding "cool". If the name was something like "Slop" it wouldn't be as popular, IMHO.

At any rate, I've never seen a "RAW" conversion which was significantly better than the JPEG the panasonic engineers have given us.

As to GPS (what a joke, on a camera!) and the rest of that.....you have said it all, so well....

Thanks.

-Erik

--
DP Review Supporter.



'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
http://www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/
 
Erik Ohlson said:
Extremely well stated. Then there's the fact that probably a majority of those posting pleas for "full manual control" wouldn't know what to do with it if it was offered - judging by the rest of many such posts.
Click to expand...
Well full manual control on small sensors tends to mean a choice of 2 apertures, shutter speed might be of more use, but again..it's limited. Better than nothing though.

A lot of these models suffer from diffraction at smaller apertures, I find at f2.8 on my compact the IQ is much better, so an aperture choice can be useful in this respect.
Erik Ohlson said:
It would be fun to play with for about a week and then forgotten, IMHO.
Click to expand...
It's worth having, though possibly not as useful as some suggest.
Erik Ohlson said:
Anyone who wants to go back to carrying a meter roughly the size of a"TZ-x" camera, and transferring the readings to the TWO manual controls (aperture & shutter speed) available on the film cameras of nostalgic memory (or in most cases, hearsay), is very welcome.
Click to expand...
Not really very fair, I still use film, I hate to break news but stuff like autofocus and TTL metering made it to film bodies ;-)

I was thinking maybe a Voigtländer Bessa might be useful, and it runs without batteries, though that is just for the metering. Film has a fairly large latitude, so you might find it not so hard, and possibly fun dare I say!
Erik Ohlson said:
Erik Ohlson said:
Great. RAW mode is the best way to waste your time playing with the computer instead of going out and taking pics. Spending countless hours pixel-peeping, postprocessing, finding flaws and defects in everything (sharpness, color, gradation, highlights, dynamic range, etc) and trying to get rid of the damn things is not my concept of enjoying photography.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
In Samsung's case RAW would be very handy, to avoid the massive smearing going on..I see some point to it, would be nice if we could turn the NR off or very low on these models.
Erik Ohlson said:
As to GPS (what a joke, on a camera!) and the rest of that.....you have said it all, so well....
Click to expand...
It's just another consumer feature, Samsung are on a roll with features..just a shame IQ and decent lenses seem to have taken a back seat.
 
The logic behind the Panasonic menus and settings is really smart.
Why anybody would want manual controls on a p&s camera is
beyond me. I've just learned to not want them, because they seem
to go against the very nature of p&s cameras. On my dSLR I do
want manual controls, and hard buttons for them. I love how
my ZS1 has only four settings on the mode dial, it lets me quickly
go to my exact preference. Simple and direct!
--
Lipo
 
coleviolin said:
The logic behind the Panasonic menus and settings is really smart.
Why anybody would want manual controls on a p&s camera is
beyond me. I've just learned to not want them, because they seem
to go against the very nature of p&s cameras. On my dSLR I do
want manual controls, and hard buttons for them. I love how
my ZS1 has only four settings on the mode dial, it lets me quickly
go to my exact preference. Simple and direct!
--
Lipo
Click to expand...
Maybe it is time to drop the P&S nomenclature, these are small
technically loaded cameras, a 35 mm Leica was just as big as
a plastic bodied 35 mm camera, but no one called them P&S.
 
Trafford said:
coleviolin said:
The logic behind the Panasonic menus and settings is really smart.
Why anybody would want manual controls on a p&s camera is
beyond me. I've just learned to not want them, because they seem
to go against the very nature of p&s cameras. On my dSLR I do
want manual controls, and hard buttons for them. I love how
my ZS1 has only four settings on the mode dial, it lets me quickly
go to my exact preference. Simple and direct!
--
Lipo
Click to expand...
Maybe it is time to drop the P&S nomenclature, these are small
technically loaded cameras, a 35 mm Leica was just as big as
a plastic bodied 35 mm camera, but no one called them P&S.
Click to expand...
They sure do have a lot features, and that makes them difficult
to choose from and difficult to ever learn to use really well, because
the next year a new "must have" model comes out completely
redesigned. Somebody I know walked into a camera store once
and said to the salesperson "hi, I'm stupid. What's a good camera
for me?" :) Maybe this is why electronics companies are getting
so good at making cameras: They know how to make these
small electronic recording devices for the real world. Cheerz,

--
Lipo
 
kashtan said:
It's called a 'history lessons'. What does sell? Numbers. More HP, more pixels, more memory, more everything. Umm, it works in computer world.

Yet we in photography world deal with something strange called 'law of physics'. Umm... difractions... aberations.... wave lentghts.... glass purity.... coating.... colors...

Still wanna judge by the numbers?

The single real revolution in photography world in the past few years was and still is called LX3. More pixels? No. Larger zoom? Heck no! Better lens? Heck YES! A lens of quality unheard of in P&S world until then.

The point is that with current laws of physics (which are not gonna change:-) and with current manufacturing methods it's impossible to build a 15x collapsible P&S lens of decent optic qualities.

And lens, my friend, is THE core of a good picture. Ain't this true?
Click to expand...
Ahh, so we might as well give up on zooms on p&s i guess since it's impossible to get any better right?

Last I checked ZR1 did something fairly new. creating a decent p&s 8x wide angle zoom in an incredible small body. No it can't do low light shots like the LX3 but who cares, it's much more portable than the lx3, has great zoom range, etc. etc. without putting a zonkingly large lens on it.

Besides, I heard the same when the TZ3 came out. Everyone was saying how putting a 10x wide angle zoom would kill the IQ, and 'lo and behold, the lens was superb.

A few years later the TZ7 came out with with a wider angle zoom and even larger tele and guess what? The IQ is significantly better than the TZ3. While the TZ3 had horrendous low light IQ, TZ7 is decent.

So what gives? Why is IQ continually getting better?

Simple, we still have a ways to go sensor wise. Yes, we can't beat the rules of science with optics but we can still better the sensor.

So sorry if I'm going to hold judgment still. Samsung, or some other company can still produce a better camera than the ZS3. Will they? I'm sure some day they will, whether that would be with this new samsung? who knows.

--
Hubert

My cameras: GF1, TZ3, recently fixed (I think) Minolta Hi-Matic 7s, broken Konica Auto S2(couldn't fix, who the heck GLUES screws in??), K1000 and my wife's old K110D



http://www.flickr.com/photos/peppermonkey/
 
Barry Fitzgerald said:
...... I still use film, I hate to break news but stuff like autofocus and TTL metering made it to film bodies ;-)
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know, Barry. I actually liked "match-needle" metering - easy to "shade" it to compensate, much like +/- EV
Member said:
I was thinking maybe a Voigtländer Bessa might be useful, and it runs without batteries, though that is just for the metering. Film has a fairly large latitude, so you might find it not so hard, and possibly fun dare I say!
Click to expand...
Fun - I guess. So is fuming silver-plated copper sheets for those who are still making Daguerrotypes, and about as obsolete as far as I'm concerned - but that's just personal opinion :P
Member said:
Member said:
Member said:
Great. RAW mode is the best way to waste your time playing with the computer instead of going out and taking pics. Spending countless hours pixel-peeping, postprocessing, finding flaws and defects in everything (sharpness, color, gradation, highlights, dynamic range, etc) and trying to get rid of the damn things is not my concept of enjoying photography.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
In Samsung's case RAW would be very handy, to avoid the massive smearing going on..I see some point to it, would be nice if we could turn the NR off or very low on these models.
Click to expand...
Doggone good point, Samsung & some others might well need it ;)
Member said:
Member said:
As to GPS (what a joke, on a camera!) and the rest of that.....you have said it all, so well....
Click to expand...
It's just another consumer feature, Samsung are on a roll with features..just a shame IQ and decent lenses seem to have taken a back seat.
Click to expand...
Some good points, thanks.

Cheers, -erik

--
DP Review Supporter.



'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
http://www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/
 
Though GPS is useless for many, it is desirable for many.

You can see that is going to be a trend.
Many new cameras will have GPS.

The "rumoured" specifications sound like a successor to LX3, not ZS3.

ZS3 successor should be on par with the latest Smasung/Sony:
1080i video and GPS are most notable features.
 
Shrapnel said:
ron2000 said:
And it is a Sony!
Click to expand...
Whoop-di-do :)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG#Controversies for a number of reasons why people may be a little bit anti-Sony. Not to mention years of profiteering from their own rip-off proprietary tech (like MemoryStick) instead of cheap commonplace standards like SDHC. One hand in the hardware business and another in the content/media biz - creating a distasteful eagerness to restrict Fair Use via draconian Digital Rights Management. Yuck!

--

Canon A-eighty since 2004 (13,000 shots), Pan.FZ.eighteen (5,000 shots and counting) & Pan.FZ.thirty-eight (29aug09)

Click to expand...
Let's leave politics out!

Sony was always low on my list in choosing a DC because they use MS.
But this one can use SD/SDHC!
So that makes it equal.
 
ron2000 said:
ZS3 successor should be on par with the latest Smasung/Sony:
1080i video and GPS are most notable features.
Click to expand...
1080i or for that matter any interlaced video is the pits, why they continue to use this technology which was used for crt television screens I don't know. Progressive video is much easier to edit and LCD screens don't need interlaced video.

--
http://www.pbase.com/reelate2
http://www.pbase.com/relate2
What flying means to me.
http://vimeo.com/2598837
My Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2#p/u

 
ron2000 said:
Though GPS is useless for many, it is desirable for many.

You can see that is going to be a trend.
Many new cameras will have GPS.

The "rumoured" specifications sound like a successor to LX3, not ZS3.

ZS3 successor should be on par with the latest Smasung/Sony:
1080i video and GPS are most notable features.
Click to expand...
If it hasn't got an EVF they can keep the "D#$%@" thing !

-Erik

--
DP Review Supporter.



'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
http://www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/
 
Erik Ohlson said:
If it hasn't got an EVF they can keep the "D#$%@" thing !
Click to expand...
Well, Erik, I suspect that no EVF will ever appear on a low end or mid range consumer camera. Leaving it out makes it smaller and also cheaper to make. The EVF world will be on costlier hybrids and maybe optional ugly attachments on some up-market compacts. The Ricoh GX100 did that years ago but I don't think they sell heaps if that optional device.

The only solutions are LCD treatments where BoxWave anti-glare film gets half way there and is acceptable for everyday use.

But for EVF simulation then I guess Gary's ClearViewer is as close as you can get to EVF operation. I for one think it's a good solution but for me it adds a little bulk that I don't want (available for LX3 but not sure about other cameras). http://clearviewer.com/index.html

Regards........... Guy
 
Erik Ohlson said:
If it hasn't got an EVF they can keep the "D#$%@" thing !

-Erik
Click to expand...
Something has to give.
You cannot put an EVF and still keep the camera size small and LCD large.

Guess what MOST consumers prefer?

You are the minority and manufacturers know who they can get money from.

I am sure you can NEVER get a 10x zoom compact with EVF.
 
ron2000 said:
You cannot put an EVF and still keep the camera size small and LCD large.
Click to expand...
I dunno I think we have enough slim digital cameras around, don't you?

I'd like to see makers do a viewfinder on some models, be it EVF or OVF, I frankly detest using a back LCD all the time
 
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