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Barry Fitzgerald
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I don't know about you, but I am much more interested in "what comes out of the can" A nice AMOLED panel is great and dandy, but it's not much use if the IQ is pants ;-)
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Threat from Samsung for ZS3/TZ7
- Thread starter relate22
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You can argue this both ways - what's the point in having superior IQ if you can't see the subject clearly enough to capture exactly the right moment?
Nick
I agree, the AMOLED screens are superior in most scenario's, but regrettably not in the one area that most of us gripe about. Namely, when shooting into low sunlight or when surrounded by water, snow, bright or reflective buildings or at high altitude etc. In those situations the AMOLED is similar to Pana LCD's in that it is highly reflective and becomes a perfect mirror.
Sadly the latest Samsung sales blurb makes no mention of 'anti-reflective' screen.
Nick
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Barry Fitzgerald
Guest
Which is why I use OVF DSLR's and even an OVF rangefinder 35mm camera ;-)
I've asked for OVF's on compacts for ages, yet most companies have dropped them completely, and those that did have almost stopped them. Inaccurate yup, not full coverage, yup..but you can see what the subject is in bright light!
Ah progress eh??
safaridon
Senior Member
Perhaps the delays in implimentation are due to the developing companies tying up with patents but Kodak first surfaced with an early type years ago. I hope this is not the case. One poster noted that ANOLED and OLED are basically the same product and that shown in the You-Tube Video was the one used in this new WP650 camera and NX10. I am sure other manufactures probably will have quite a stock of LCDs to use up before they launch into new screen but hopefully that will happen quickly as others see and realize the advantages it brings.
Miles Johnson
Forum Enthusiast
Point taken, but FWIW I didn't notice that problem on the gizmo I briefly used. Remember that this is a fixable issue though, you can always add a quality anti-glare screen protector, a necessity anyway with most screens being "soft" and scratching easily. I do disagree that this is THE main factor, but I guess to each his own.
One more thing. My understanding is that just like Sony has been selling sensors to many manufacturers, Samsung and subsidiaries have the edge with mass production of OLED/AMOLED screens for small devices, they make most 3 inch and 3.7-inch amoleds that are on cams, phones and media players right now.
I tried an NV24 for a week with a 2.5" AMOLED and compared it to my daughter's Canon IXUS 850. Yes the Samsung screen was lovely and better overall. But had I added an anti-glare protector (which trades a little bit of brightness and defintion) I am not sure whether the overall advantage would be as decisive. Put it this way, if 2 cameras have identical IQ and features, the one having an AMOLED screen would clinch it for me, but not in exchange for an important feature or attribute.
To repeat myself over the years, wouldn't it be nice if Reviewers helped us buyers by taking the guesswork out of all this and found a way to measure, test and report on LCD performance. We know the brightness, refresh rates and contrast ratio's of TV's, why not camera's?
Nick
safaridon
Senior Member
-- I think there is little question but that framing a picture is better in either an OVF or EVF is better for pictures especially when speed is important with the OVF. However in my opinion a swivel screen is my preference for any video first because I can keep both eyes open to enjoy the scenery or animals around me while using the articulation to get rid of the glare and blackout.
I think both means of framing are important. Accurate framing has something to do with the smooth manual zooming DSLR lens compared to at times jerky electronic zooming on P&S. I use both OVF on DSLR and TZ rear screens interchangeably and only find the later less convenient because of time to frame, slower performance, or blackout. However I will have to admit I love the pictures on my TZs when viewed on the rear sceen but not as sharp when trying to enlarge so holding method does make a difference inspite of OIS.
Some of this degradation in low light with full zoom and slow aperature may be due to defraction limited so I wish there was a fast 24-200 mm f2-2.8 camera in 1/2.3" sensor which would be much better IQ thruout its range and with easyzoom could expand its zoom range for video and still be very fast auto focus. Ie I would find with EZoom that images at 300mm effective at f2.8 and 5 mp would be more practical for low light and better speeds than slower f5.8 at 360mm at 12 mp?
If you cut the Samsungs WP650 zoom length in half that should mean you could design a lens with 2 stops gain in speed ie f2.8 at 180mm and still have the same relative size? I am not sure at the wide angle end but LX3 able to get to f2 at 24mm with larger sensor.
While many far prefer use of the EVF all the manufactures are struggling to try and combine the inbody EVF into the camera and still keep the size very small and it can't be easily done at least to size of TZs. Consequently I view the OLED development that will not only make the superzooms like these and smaller compacts even more popular as well as the E-P1 or GF1 sans EVF. There will always be a place for both concepts with maybe a L1 rangefinder style or digital OM or FM with the EVF in place with features similar to G1, GH1, and NX10.
--I would really like to see a ZS3 combined with a swivel screen.
DigitalMaven
Senior Member
wait until it is released and then judge it on its performance.
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When a hammer is your only tool, all problems begin to look like nails.
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When a hammer is your only tool, all problems begin to look like nails.
Erik Ohlson
Forum Pro
Yup, progress, which we are discussing, seems always to have a "One step foreward, two steps back" component!
There is a reason that OVF's have been dropped. The real problem with OVF's on P&S cameras is the internal volume and optical complexity of an OVF.
One interesting thing I noticed when my old Minolta Xi was ruined by pocket lint was that when I disassembled the camera, I was able to examine the OVF for this little 3x zoom: quite a complex assembly of plastic optical castings.
Now consider a 10, 12, or 15x zoom. A LOT more complex! More magnification requires among other things, a focusing OVF . Very likely the only way to get a decent OVF for large zoom ranges is the SLR system, utilizing the camera's optics to form the image.
An EVF does this easily - electronically. It is a solved problem!
By contrast with an OVF, an EVF can be kept quite small: look at the external kluge EVF's for LX3 & Ricoh. I keep mentioning that the FZ28 EVF was shown in a DP Review photo of a "skeletonized" FZ28 at one of the camera shows about a year ago - looked like it would fit in a 3/4" (20mm) cube - which could easily be incorporated into a TZ size camera. The ZR1 already is sufficiently smaller than current TZ's that those insides, and the ZS3 lens would accommodate an EVF such as that in a TZ size body.
I'd say it could be fit in the upper right corner, above the 4-way control. That leaves room for all the controls, and the ZS3 LCD screen. Even if the camera had to be made a bit wider to find the room, the camera would still have pocketable dimensions.
Please note, Mr. Trensamiro, I do not advocate dropping the LCD, or some better screen. It is, I agree, a "must" for candid situations, and for sharing photos with friends - and just reviewing the shots one has taken.
But wouldn't it be refreshing to see fewer shots posted with non-level horizons, as we see so many more of with LCD-framed shots?
I, for one, am willing to forgo a swivel screen due to the added thickness it would give the camera body. The wider visibility of the ZS3 screen seems to handle most situations a swivel would facilitate, and I have already adopted the use of a small hand-held mirror for the very rare situation such as ground level shots where only a swivel screen would otherwise work. Such situations are so rare.
So, I'm still hoping for an EVF TZ to be introduced. I'm convinced that it is possible, and overdue.
-Erik
--
DP Review Supporter.
'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
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Guy Parsons
Forum Pro
I bought the LX3 because of its excellent "out of the can" results, and put up with the dreadful unseeable LCD in sunlight. Now the BoxWave filter is on it I am a completely happy puppy.
So in my case (and same for many others) I will put up with lousy LCD or lousy viewfinder (my Olympus E-300 DSLR) just to get a decent result.
As for seeing the moment, that works better with an LCD more so than with a viewfinder anyway. With the LCD I find that I frame the shot rather sloppily (to allow future cropping and pan and zoom slide shows) and then mostly look at the subjects to see when things are in the right place and time. I do not rely on looking at the LCD to decide when to shoot.
Peering through a viewfinder (no matter how clear to see) is so foreign and un-natural to me now. I see more of the world using an LCD. I do not like peering at the world through a small hole any more.
Regards......... Guy
I am glad it works well for you. Last autumn I attended an air show hoping to capture 1 or 2 decent display shots - not a chance with LCD only. Tracking moving objects at tele end certainly needs an OVF or even EVF.
I think your method works only if you frame loosely and your'e wedded to PPing. I guess there are still some of us who like to kid ourselves that we can make (or break) the shot in the taking, rather than embarking upon a rescue operation.
Well yes I think we are all out of practice. Guy, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought you were singing the virtues of that LCD stick-on cover you peer through? Regardless, I think a built-in EVF is the answer. I am sure it can be done, it is just whether manufacturers want to do it.
Glad you like the boxwave, the best accessory a Pana compact owner can buy.
Nick
Wait and see what it will cost. I think you have to consider the price when making a comparison.
If you just bought your ZS3 recently, you probably paid around $250 for it. Given that it originally went for something like $360, you may feel better about your choice if this Samsung camera (which you can't get until March anyway) ends up being just as expensive.
If you just bought your ZS3 recently, you probably paid around $250 for it. Given that it originally went for something like $360, you may feel better about your choice if this Samsung camera (which you can't get until March anyway) ends up being just as expensive.
I just have to make a comment about the pricing of cameras in the US. This camera came out in Australia at $700 yes you read it right $700 and this was when our dollar was at about 93c to your dollar.
I bought mine a month ago for a bargain basement price of $499. It just makes me weep when I see how much people overseas are paying for electronic gear. We are getting ripped off and this is why I have no problem bargaining and getting the best possible price I can for my gear.
If all I paid for the camera was $250 I could use it as a paperweight and not worry too much about it, you people in the US have it so good you don't even realise it.
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I bought mine a month ago for a bargain basement price of $499. It just makes me weep when I see how much people overseas are paying for electronic gear. We are getting ripped off and this is why I have no problem bargaining and getting the best possible price I can for my gear.
If all I paid for the camera was $250 I could use it as a paperweight and not worry too much about it, you people in the US have it so good you don't even realise it.
--
http://www.pbase.com/reelate2
http://www.pbase.com/relate2
What flying means to me.
http://vimeo.com/2598837
My Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2#p/u
peppermonkey
Veteran Member
Lol, yes the people from the states have it good. Just across the border (2-3 hours drive for me), in Canada (yup, the neighbors to the north), we have to pay $450CDN for the camera. That's $435USD. Almost $200 more! And we are JUST over the border! And you wonder why Canadians flock to the states to buy things. At least for Australians you can 'Almost' make an excuse and say 'Hey, we are separated by ocean and are half way around the world from the states'...but just a couple of hours away? Almost two times the price. $700 is obscene, very sick, but Canadians are getting shafted also. BTW, we are 97c to the $1CDN so almost par. I feel for all you Australians and do feel your pain (well, to a lesser degree of course but still annoying)
Hubert
My cameras: GF1, TZ3, recently fixed (I think) Minolta Hi-Matic 7s, broken Konica Auto S2(couldn't fix, who the heck GLUES screws in??), K1000 and my wife's old K110D
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peppermonkey/
--I just have to make a comment about the pricing of cameras in the US. This camera came out in Australia at $700 yes you read it right $700 and this was when our dollar was at about 93c to your dollar.
I bought mine a month ago for a bargain basement price of $499. It just makes me weep when I see how much people overseas are paying for electronic gear. We are getting ripped off and this is why I have no problem bargaining and getting the best possible price I can for my gear.
If all I paid for the camera was $250 I could use it as a paperweight and not worry too much about it, you people in the US have it so good you don't even realise it.
--
http://www.pbase.com/reelate2
http://www.pbase.com/relate2
What flying means to me.
http://vimeo.com/2598837
My Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2#p/u
Hubert
My cameras: GF1, TZ3, recently fixed (I think) Minolta Hi-Matic 7s, broken Konica Auto S2(couldn't fix, who the heck GLUES screws in??), K1000 and my wife's old K110D
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peppermonkey/
mongatu
Forum Enthusiast
We (in the US) do have it pretty good when it comes to buying electronics and computer stuff but the second we step outside our national borders we find that our money isn't worth very much these days, and this situation appears unlikely to improve in the foreseeable future.
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Peter
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Peter
Don't get me started on the value of the US dollar, I know this is a photography forum but when your dollar gets down to 50c compared to other currencies then you can start complaining as ours was a few years ago.
--
http://www.pbase.com/reelate2
http://www.pbase.com/relate2
What flying means to me.
http://vimeo.com/2598837
My Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2#p/u
--
http://www.pbase.com/reelate2
http://www.pbase.com/relate2
What flying means to me.
http://vimeo.com/2598837
My Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2#p/u
I never saw anything from the previous Samsung model that impressed me, either photos or movie clips - so I'll reserve judgement until we've seen some great examples.
The colour never looked natural on the material I saw, and I'd rather not be stuck at 30.0 fps in movie mode, thanks very much
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Canon A-eighty since 2004 (13,000 shots), Pan.FZ.eighteen (5,000 shots and counting) & Pan.FZ.thirty-eight (29aug09)
The colour never looked natural on the material I saw, and I'd rather not be stuck at 30.0 fps in movie mode, thanks very much
--
Canon A-eighty since 2004 (13,000 shots), Pan.FZ.eighteen (5,000 shots and counting) & Pan.FZ.thirty-eight (29aug09)
safaridon
Senior Member
--The biggest thing the Samsung model has in its favor is the OLED screen but suspect IQ based on previous models, slower lens, and inefficient AVI HD.
I think the biggest threat to the ZS3/TZ7 will come from the Sony HX5 with its back-illuminated sensor, manual controls including shutter and aperature control, and up to 10 fps burst mode at full resolution. Of it also has a GPS all for $350.
In 10 days we will know that the new ZS or TZ brings to the table. If the latest 43rumor is about TZ rather than LX3 replacement that would mean manual controls in the TZ plus the GPS to match the competition. Unfortunately at this stage no mention of a new back illumated sensor? Pany reported to be working on a very revolutionary CMOS sensor capable of outputting two resolutions 12 mp & up to 10 fsp and one with 4 stops better low light for video but that may not be ready. DPR article last fall stated that Toshiba also had similar CMOS sensor also 1/2.3" under development and would be in full production by 3rd quarter this year. I hope that there is more to this?
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