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Threat from Samsung for ZS3/TZ7

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relate22

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Samsung has just released a competitor for the ZS3/TZ7. It has a 24mm wide with 15X zoom PLUS OLED screen AND manual controls. I guess I bought my TZ7 a couple of months too early. :-(

I must say though about the only thing I would like is the OLED screen. With my hanggliding done nearly all the time in bright sunlight I really struggle seeing my subjects clearly.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1001/10011903hz35whz30w.asp
--
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http://www.pbase.com/relate2
What flying means to me.
http://vimeo.com/2598837
My Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2#p/u

 
I would wonder how is the lens going to perform... what's going to be F@15x... 8?

I am thinking it's not gonna be the sharpest either...

Why don't they also say that with GPS on you better take travel charger with you and recharge every few hours. Yeahh, that's handy on a vacation... Or leave it off and wait few minutes before taking the shot.... for gps to acquire satellites...

... am I the only one thinking that this is pure wrong? Instead of improving picture taking and movie taking they focus on tech specs and cave in to cell phone user pressures? C'mon, give me some decent camera and not f...ing cellphone!
 
relate22 said:
Samsung has just released a competitor for the ZS3/TZ7. It has a 24mm wide with 15X zoom PLUS OLED screen AND manual controls. I guess I bought my TZ7 a couple of months too early. :-(

I must say though about the only thing I would like is the OLED screen. With my hanggliding done nearly all the time in bright sunlight I really struggle seeing my subjects clearly.
Click to expand...
The OLED screen may not be the answer as others have reported that OLED is just as bad as LCD in sunlight.

The answer to the Panasonic super shiny LCD is the BoxWave anti-glare filter, works a treat on my LX3. http://www.boxwave.com/products/cleartouch/cleartouch-panasonic-digital-camera-screen-protector.htm

I found the ZS3/TZ7 LCD to be just a few millimetres narrower than the LX3 LCD so an LX3 one cut down will work for the ZS3/TZ7.

Regards........ Guy
 
I hear what you are saying Guy but all of the advertising I have read re OLED screens mentions great viewing in direct sunlight. I cannot comment any further than that as I have not seen an OLED screen in person to try for myself.

Regarding the anti-glare screen you mention does it make a huge difference or slight difference? I have tried similar screens in the past and the only make a small difference under our very bright Australian sun.
--
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http://www.pbase.com/relate2
What flying means to me.
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relate22 said:
I must say though about the only thing I would like is the OLED screen.
Click to expand...
Really? having PASM features on Samsung does not appeal to you??? being 5mm thinner? Built-in GPS?

My questions:

1) How is Aperture priority implemented on Samsung? Does the lens have actual blades inside? Or it is like Fuji F70/F72EXR - no blades, and only two aperture settings could be selected;
2) Can optical zoom be operated on video
3) What is the battery life

I like the competition though. Panasonic is now pressured to put PASM in the new TZ/ZS rendition. Oh and I am sure Panasonic would love to get the bragging rights of the largest optical zoom back....

--
Nikon D300- Nikon D40- Panny ZS3- Fuji F72EXR
Previously owned DSLRS: Canon 40D, Nikon D40x

 
Regarding manual controls, it would be nice but not something I need for my hanggliding videos and photos.

I mainly use manual controls for special shots, like waterfalls, daylight flash macro photos etc. The TZ7 has spot metering which is the main feature I need so as to not blow out the tops of white hanggliding wings. I can work around most things I need with the T7's settings.

Along with the OLED screen the Samsung would have to equal or better the TZ7's video quality which I think is just outstanding, especially in low light.
--
http://www.pbase.com/reelate2
http://www.pbase.com/relate2
What flying means to me.
http://vimeo.com/2598837
My Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2#p/u

 
kashtan said:
... am I the only one thinking that this is pure wrong? Instead of improving picture taking and movie taking they focus on tech specs and cave in to cell phone user pressures? C'mon, give me some decent camera and not f...ing cellphone!
Click to expand...
Umm...and how do you know they haven't? Not saying they have and personally I doubt that it's picture taking is leaps and bounds above what we have now but unless you actually have proof, I'm not going to judge what they have done or have not done in their efforts to improve photo taking ability.

--
Hubert

My cameras: GF1, TZ3, recently fixed (I think) Minolta Hi-Matic 7s, broken Konica Auto S2(couldn't fix, who the heck GLUES screws in??), K1000 and my wife's old K110D



http://www.flickr.com/photos/peppermonkey/
 
peppermonkey said:
kashtan said:
... am I the only one thinking that this is pure wrong? Instead of improving picture taking and movie taking they focus on tech specs and cave in to cell phone user pressures? C'mon, give me some decent camera and not f...ing cellphone!
Click to expand...
Umm...and how do you know they haven't? Not saying they have and personally I doubt that it's picture taking is leaps and bounds above what we have now but unless you actually have proof, I'm not going to judge what they have done or have not done in their efforts to improve photo taking ability.
Click to expand...
It's called a 'history lessons'. What does sell? Numbers. More HP, more pixels, more memory, more everything. Umm, it works in computer world.

Yet we in photography world deal with something strange called 'law of physics'. Umm... difractions... aberations.... wave lentghts.... glass purity.... coating.... colors...

Still wanna judge by the numbers?

The single real revolution in photography world in the past few years was and still is called LX3. More pixels? No. Larger zoom? Heck no! Better lens? Heck YES! A lens of quality unheard of in P&S world until then.

The point is that with current laws of physics (which are not gonna change:-) and with current manufacturing methods it's impossible to build a 15x collapsible P&S lens of decent optic qualities.

And lens, my friend, is THE core of a good picture. Ain't this true?
 
No one seems to be considering what IQ this camera may deliver.

On tech specs it does sound rather good, but until I see the image output I can't get worked up about it. So with more pixels than the TZ7 what is the low light capability going to be like?

For me - having got used to the settings on the TZ7 I don't think I would get many better pictures with manual controls. Also I don't think the extra zoom will make the difference. While there is a difference of 1mm at the wide end (maybe useful although you almost get 24mm when in 16:9 mode on the TZ7) the image stabilisation is going to have to be so good at 360mm unless you carry a tripod around with you.

GPS is a bit of a gimmick.

i have my TZ7 now and it's a great camera. Not brilliant and there's room for improvement. But the IQ is great in most conditions and it's here and it's proven itself.

Having said that - it's good that there is competition and that means there's likely to be some good choices when I need to replace my TZ7.

Neil

--
The Sky is a Beautiful Place
Samsung DSLR Photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/neilmacg/sets/72157608761471061/
Panasonic TZ7 Photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/neilmacg/sets/72157617136160449/
Pentax K100D Photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/neilmacg/sets/72157600968880721/
 
relate22 said:
I hear what you are saying Guy but all of the advertising I have read re OLED screens mentions great viewing in direct sunlight. I cannot comment any further than that as I have not seen an OLED screen in person to try for myself.
Click to expand...
No personal experience, just reporting what I read about OLEDs, not as marvellous as marketing sees them it seems. To me they seem to have been around for a long time starting in Kodak cameras but years later and there's still very few about, I'm suspicious.
relate22 said:
Regarding the anti-glare screen you mention does it make a huge difference or slight difference? I have tried similar screens in the past and the only make a small difference under our very bright Australian sun.
Click to expand...
The trouble with Panasonic LCDs is the extreme reflectivity that makes them a good make-up mirror but a pain for seeing the LCD. In Aussie sunlight I see my shirt or my face clearly but little of the scene I'm trying to frame. Worst LCD I've ever seen in that regard (LX3 in my case, friend with TZ7 has same complaint).

Got the BoxWave and it reduces that reflectivity dramatically and I can now see to frame. The downside is that for review purposes the apparent resolution and contrast seems a bit less. But for me that doesn't matter as I prefer to shoot and sort out later at home on a real monitor.

My previous attitude to LX3 was "great camera, shame about the LCD". Now my attitude is "great camera".

Regards.......... Guy
LX3 info... http://homepages.tig.com.au/~parsog/panasonic/01-intro.html
 
Guy Parsons said:
relate22 said:
Samsung has just released a competitor for the ZS3/TZ7. It has a 24mm wide with 15X zoom PLUS OLED screen AND manual controls. I guess I bought my TZ7 a couple of months too early. :-(

I must say though about the only thing I would like is the OLED screen. With my hanggliding done nearly all the time in bright sunlight I really struggle seeing my subjects clearly.
Click to expand...
The OLED screen may not be the answer as others have reported that OLED is just as bad as LCD in sunlight.
Click to expand...
--On the m4/3rds forum there is a thread 2 days ago titled OLED opposed to LCD. Adssio posted a very valuable thread saysin " for those who don't believe in the superiority of this technology see this video-
http:www.youtube.com/watch?V=FICAHsE_enE

This video clip illustrates the much brighter colors of the OLED screen, wider angle viewing, and much much better useable in bright sunlight comparing the Samsung screen with a typical Canon LCD screen. Samsung claims lower power consumption and the fact that they are even producing a 3.5" model the price must be very competitive with current screens if not cheaper. One picture is worth a thousand words.

I am a very keen supporter and user of the TZ series and really hope that Pany also goes to OLED with their coming model as that one factor would tip the scales in favor of the Samsung WP650 over the competition if IQ is good. I too was just ready to spring for the ZS3 at current bargain prices but the screen blackout is my primary compliant in my use of my TZs.

I think the 15X zoom range will also make this model very competitive with the much larger superzooms even the FZ 35 (which is faster) as with the OLED screen much less necessity to have a EVF viewfinder and it would have almost as much range in a much more compact format but equal speed lens to some others with exception to FZ35.

While the GPS is certainly not necessary Samsung is only matching what both Sony and Casio are offering in their models. Since it apparently costs little additional why not include as then one does not need to buy separate GPS to have in car or when backpacking?

Looks like the TZ/ZS series will have some real competition on its hands. I believe this type of camera will prove to be not only the most versitile but also most popular camera must carry with you.
 
It is interesting you mention stabilisation as I noticed a setting on the dial on top of the camera for stabilisation.

Now this seems a weird place to put it as how would you use it when in say manual mode, movie mode, or any of the other settings on the dial.

They do talk about dual stabilisation, so unless they use that setting for extra stabilisation, who knows, looks as though we are going to have to wait till March to find out.

--
http://www.pbase.com/reelate2
http://www.pbase.com/relate2
What flying means to me.
http://vimeo.com/2598837
My Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2#p/u

 
All of this discussion of different screen types simply begs the real question:

"What is the best way to frame the shot?"

To quote DP Review in the "hands on review" of the Samsung NX 10:
safaridon said:
2009 will be remembered for many things, most of them pretty unpleasant, but in the photographic world I suspect we'll look back on it as the year that the interchangeable lens camera finally broke free of its 35mm film heritage with the loss of the 'R' part of SLR (the reflex mirror).
Click to expand...
The whole point of which is that the Panny G1 & this Samsung have finally brought the Electronic Viewfinder ( EVF ) to the fore.

The ZS3 has a great LCD for showing photos stored in the camera to one's friends, but for Taking the picture, an EVF is unbeatable in viewing, as well as holding the camera more steadily due to the geometry of holding it to one's face.

The EVF is - IMHO - what the small camera still lacks.

-Erik
--
DP Review Supporter.



'He who hesitates is not only lost - he's miles from the next Exit.'
http://www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/
 
Here is a thought for fitting an electronic view finder to a small camera. I read on the net how they are developing a flexible OLED screen that can be rolled up.

How about they develop a pull out screen to show your photos to your friends or review your photos and use the space now used by the LCD to put in an electronic view finder.

Ahh technology dream it and they will build it. :)
--
http://www.pbase.com/reelate2
http://www.pbase.com/relate2
What flying means to me.
http://vimeo.com/2598837
My Youtube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2#p/u

 
safaridon said:
--On the m4/3rds forum there is a thread 2 days ago titled OLED opposed to LCD. Adssio posted a very valuable thread saysin " for those who don't believe in the superiority of this technology see this video-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FICAHsE_enE
Click to expand...
Thanks for that YouTube link, that is impressive.

Maybe the Canon LCD is crummy (my LX3 LCD can be seen OK from greater angles than that Canon LCD) but the OLED screen does look quite a lot better despite someone in that thread saying that OLED was just as bad as LCD in sunlight.

I guess there's differences in OLED performance. Maybe the AMOLED is better, who has compared all those in sunlight?

My doubts were raised by how long it is taking to see OLED products in the real world, there must be problems with the technology. I suppose one day it will happen - or something even better may pop up.

Regards......... Guy
 
Erik Ohlson said:
All of this discussion of different screen types simply begs the real question:

"What is the best way to frame the shot?"
[...]

The ZS3 has a great LCD for showing photos stored in the camera to one's friends, but for Taking the picture, an EVF is unbeatable in viewing, as well as holding the camera more steadily due to the geometry of holding it to one's face.
Click to expand...
.

I agree, but there are times when the LCD is the superior option over an EVF, or even the only viable option.

That would be for instance when taking candids , where there are many cases when you need to be as inconspicuous as possible so that noone notices you're pointing a camera at them and intent on taking their pic.

In those circumstances, raising the camera to your eye, looking through the EVF, and pointing at the subject is a dead giveaway that you're about to take their pic which, depending on the particulars, can ruin the "candidness" of your pic at the very least or get you into seriously embarrassing or even downright dangerous trouble at worst.

On the other hand, you want to take such a candid pic, you merely put the camera on a table or at hip level or anywhere but near your eye, point it in the general direction of the subject, and press the shutter or even use the self-timer so that the subject never sees your eye near the camera nor your finger near the shutter when the actual pic is taking place.

Your picture taking is then bound to go utterly unnoticed, even if they see your small, seemingly run-of-the-mill P&S. This can mean the difference between getting your candid or getting yourself into trouble.

-
See my Lumix ZS3 (TZ7) pics at http://www.flickr.com/photos/mirepapa/

.
 
I played with a WB500 for a short while, before rejecting it due to poor IQ.

Ok maybe I am a bit more fussy than most, but the lens was bad in the edges, the images had massive NR processing. I think Samsung just dropped the price to sell it off.

Unless they have done some major work on optics and jpeg processing, I don't hold out much hope. I would like to see Panasonic do some manual control features etc, but I honestly think Pannie have Samsung well beaten on lenses and IQ, even if you pay more for it.

I'd love to see Samsung do well here, I think they have the potential and resources, but not the expertise to implement them, they've been going backwards on IQ for a while now, whilst loading their models up with gimmicks and features.
 
Just a few thoughts:

1) It's highly likely that Samsung itself makes that AMOLED screen

2) Their production for such (smaller) screens with this new technology is coming online and most kinks have been worked out (although much progress is to be expected in coming years, just as for LCDs a decade ago. New varieties of OLED screens will come out, and the quality will improve even further.)

3) They are now finally putting these screens on all kinds of electronic devices which is WONDERFUL news for all of us.

I recently had a chance to spend a bit of time with a device that had such a screen and believe me, looking at the world through regular LCDs was really hard after that . Brilliance, sharpness, view-ability in harsh light (although NOTHING can beat the sun on a bright day, the "reviewers" who write otherwise are full of it), faithful color rendition not just on axis but from all angles, etc.

Because manufacturers are now putting decent video but still no articulated screens on their compact cameras (yes, they know how to do that, all their video cams have them, and yes, this can be done on a very compact unit, my daughter's dinosaur 4MP Kodak has one...) that last point is hugely important, at least for me. As Trensamiro pointed out, in the absence of an EVF a good screen - like the ZS3's - should allow you to capture those wonderful candid shots. I'd add that a great screen like those new AMOLED types, should allow you to shoot with the cam away from your body at "weird" angles and capture just about anything. Not as ideal as an articulated screen, but the next best thing for sure.

I feel pretty confident that in 5-10 years most of us will look back and say "how in the world did we ever manage with these awful LCDs
 
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