3D TV will be next big thing. What impact on photography?

JulesJ said:

The statistics about light loss using polarising glasses to see a 3D fim such as Avatar may well be true, but i didn't have to worry about it or notice any adverse effect when watching the movie.

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Jules, the original poster asked how Avatar (and, by extension, modern 3D films shown with digital projectors, including "Up", "Mosters vs. Aliens", etc) differ from 3D theme park attractions ("Terminator 3D", etc).

The reason you did not notice any adverse effect when watching Avatar is that it has the high efficiency polarizers and a projector that is brighter than the "film days" 3D, so it doesn't have the old fashioned "adverse effects" that limited theme park 3D to smaller screens and shorter film clip lengths.

The new stuff looks sufficiently bright, even on big screens.

JulesJ said:

So what exactly is the problem?

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There isn't one. I wrote about how modern digital 3D systems solved all the old problems.

JulesJ said:

As for tilting your head adversely affecting the 3D effect. Sure it does. but then watching a regular film with your head sligghtly sideways would too.

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We're talking about something a little different here.

• If you tilt your head sideways in "real life", your stereobase is angled with respect to the horizon, but the brain compensates, you still get acceptable depth perception. There's no issue of "adversely affecting the 3D effect".
• If you tilt your head slightly sideways while looking at a "regular film" (I assume you mean 2D) there's no issue of affecting anything. Stand in front of a mirror, with sufficient light so you can see the veins in your eyes, and tilt your head from one side to the other, slowly. Notice that you can tilt your head to a pretty extreme angle (25-30 degrees) and the eyes rotate in their sockets? We maintain a level view of the horizon through substantial tilts. That's millions of years of hunter/gatherer evolution.
• If you tilt your head while wearing linear polarizers for 3D, a simple 10 degree tilt of your head causes 17% (sine of 10 degrees) of the left eye light to reach the right eye and vise verse. That means that everything either eye sees has a 17% "shadow" to the left or right of it. In 3D slang, this is called "ghosting".

But again, this isn't an issue, because I wrote about how Avatar (and other modern 3D) solves this problem.

• They use circular polarizers instead of linear, so there's no "ghosting". You can tilt your head 10, or even 20 degrees, and the 3D effect still holds together, perfectly naturally looking.
• They use advanced software that "tweaks" each frame so that whatever leakage in the polarizers would cause a little ghosting (and it's small, we're talking 2%, equivalent to what happens with just 1 degree of tilt with the "old style" theme park systems) is "masked" by various visual tricks.

Did you notice any ghosting, at all, during Avatar? Did you notice any breakup of the 3D when you tilted or turned your head, prompting you to keep your head unnaturally straight?

If the answer to both of those is "no", that shows you how the sort of digital 3D we've had for the last couple of years has solved problems that have plagued 3D presentations for many decades.

JulesJ said:

So once again you are searching for problems on paper that aren't problems in real life (if you call this real, Lol).

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No. I'm saying how the problems were solved, so that there's not much left to search for. Killing off that last 1 or 2% of leakage from the circular polarizers would be nice.

But now, the big thing is content delivery (3D Blu-Ray, 3D cable and satellite formats) and 3D home monitors. And I can see the industry being on-course for solutions to those problems, too.

I'm not "searching for problems", I'm enjoying the happy times.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

fotorog said:

JulesJ said:

But a shame you didn't comment on the actualy point of my post and found it most importatnt to comment on a technical detail.

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I feel no shame: my comment was meant to be critical not of you (perish the thought!), but of the great unwashed media (in this case London Times) for, if I'm correct, their illiterate reporting on technology.

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Indeed. I've never been impressed with UK news media (although there is something heartwarming about their copious use of gratuitous nudity). Only a few BBC weekly documentary series have impressed me with the quality of their reporting, and the bravery of their reporters and producers in covering things like the coverups concerning multiple alien invasions of London and Cardiff.

fotorog said:

fotorog said:

I think the idea of 3d sports on tv?cinema is a great idea.

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Yup, you are probably right: like any new technology attempting wide commercialization, 3D needs a well-defined audience segment to which the offering can be initially pushed with good chances of success. As often before, sports and pornography will probably lead the way.

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LOL...

I actually taught a course in "3D figure photography" for about 5 years over at MPW. As far as I know, it was the only course of its kind in the world.

Sounds like time to bring it back

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

I haven't seen the movie and probably won't but, the ads and clips from it seem a lot like a cartoon because it is a cartoon. Now, I did see 300 which was very cartoonish and a several other movies recently that were equally bad.
--
EXIF is embedded in photos
Zenfolio site - http://www.puntagordanaturally.com
RF Stock Portfolio - http://www.dreamstime.com/resp129611

Oh, you mean like digital images do compare to the old film and fibre I jolke not.
jules

David Rosser wrote:
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David Rosser said:

Don't have one. I started transfering them to CD many years ago but gave up as boredom overtook me. That reminds me I must get some spare drive belts for my Thorens TD160 deck, check my SME 3009 arm and get some spare styluses while I still can. Real Hi-Fi not squashed and distorted IPod sounds

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JulesJ said:

Yeh, I wanted to be a racing driver but the hassle of wearing a crash helmet put me off.

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Says a man who wears birds???

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

This reminds me of a music... video killed the radio star.

Well I still hear to radio and, here in Portugal, some of people that are TV stars started on a radio.

Movies didn't end photography, airplanes didn't end trains and boats, and so on.

There will be space for both. But it may change TV just like color kill b&w TV (does anyone still have a b&w TV)

As someone wrote here 3D cameras will always be bigger as the must have 2 lenses a few centimeters apart.

I think it was sometime in the 80s, there was a movie broadcast on TV that required the red/blue glasses. I forget the movie, but it was a big deal, lots of hype. The glasses came from some product purchase or from 7/11 or something.

Vague, I know, but does anyone remember this?

mamallama said:

Clint Sanders said:

Avatar was cool, but 3D tech has been around for a long time. I remember my cousins watching something at some studio in California in the 80s that used polarized 3D glasses. I think if there was more too it, it would already be common place.

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The first 3D movie I saw was Hondo in 1953, a John Wayne cowboy movie. There were several 3D movie released after that, but they soon lost an audience when the novelty wore off.

The 3D realism of watching Hondo was amazing. I remember an arrow being shot from behind a wagon coming straight towards me. I ducked and bumped my head on the seat in front of me.

In the 3D movie Hondo, I believe they used polarized glasses. I don't know what they use for Avatar. Recently Hondo recorded for 3D TV and broadcasted. For 3D TV they use red/blue glasses. You can actually get a 3D version of Hondo on 3D DVD.

http://www.ioffer.com/i/Hondo-In-3D-DVD-John-Wayne-95194851?source=eisi

IIRC, the 3D televised version of Hondo was not too effective. Or, it may have been the crappy TV I had at the time. One of the sponsors of the 3D Hondo show was the 7/11 stores and they gave out the glasses.

--mamallama

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Read my complete post above yours (or as it's repeated below).

Undah said:

I think it was sometime in the 80s, there was a movie broadcast on TV that required the red/blue glasses. I forget the movie, but it was a big deal, lots of hype. The glasses came from some product purchase or from 7/11 or something.

Vague, I know, but does anyone remember this?

mamallama said:

Clint Sanders said:

Avatar was cool, but 3D tech has been around for a long time. I remember my cousins watching something at some studio in California in the 80s that used polarized 3D glasses. I think if there was more too it, it would already be common place.

Click to expand...

The first 3D movie I saw was Hondo in 1953, a John Wayne cowboy movie. There were several 3D movie released after that, but they soon lost an audience when the novelty wore off.

The 3D realism of watching Hondo was amazing. I remember an arrow being shot from behind a wagon coming straight towards me. I ducked and bumped my head on the seat in front of me.

In the 3D movie Hondo, I believe they used polarized glasses. I don't know what they use for Avatar. Recently Hondo recorded for 3D TV and broadcasted. For 3D TV they use red/blue glasses. You can actually get a 3D version of Hondo on 3D DVD.

http://www.ioffer.com/i/Hondo-In-3D-DVD-John-Wayne-95194851?source=eisi

IIRC, the 3D televised version of Hondo was not too effective. Or, it may have been the crappy TV I had at the time. One of the sponsors of the 3D Hondo show was the 7/11 stores and they gave out the glasses.

--mamallama

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For decades 3D technology has promised so much ..... it hasn't happened ..... and probably never will. It's those damn glasses that you have to wear ... they're uncomfortable ...and easily sat on or lost around the home ...(especially after a few beers).

Cheers,

http://www.pbase.com/plusiotis

It was something other than Hondo. Don't recall what it was, but definitely not a John Wayne movie.

Undah said:

It was something other than Hondo. Don't recall what it was, but definitely not a John Wayne movie.

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I only remember Hondo. I still have the cardboard red/blue glasses that 7/11 gave out with the Hondo ad and 7/11 logo printed on it.

--mamallama

Lol.
jules

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Says a man who wears birds???

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Solidaritory with Sea Shepherd

mamallama said:

Now when they implement the holographic 3D TV, it might be the next big thing. With those glasses, it'll remain a niche gimmick, like those old stereo 35mm cameras were.

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I don't see a problem with wearing the glasses, but the quality of the glasses varies so much. I saw Avatar over the holidays in Tampa and the glasses were OK. A friend wanted to see it last Thursday and we went to a theater in Orlando where they had yellow plastic glasses with very thin optics that seemed to flare constantly throughout the movie. I had flares on the top right and left edge pretty much all through the movie. With the trend towards more Real D movies likely to increase quite a bit it may be time to buy a pair of decent glasses to take with me from here on out.

mamallama said:

Undah said:

It was something other than Hondo. Don't recall what it was, but definitely not a John Wayne movie.

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I only remember Hondo. I still have the cardboard red/blue glasses that 7/11 gave out with the Hondo ad and 7/11 logo printed on it.

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Probably the most famous movie ever broadcast in anaglyph (red/bue, red/cyan, red/green, etc) on TV was the 1954 classic "Creature From The Black Lagoon" in 3D. In the 80s, there were local broadcasts by stations all over the world, and regional and national television broadcasts in several countries.

Lots of stations in the American midwest picked up a broadcast hosted by Detroit's own Tom Ryan, who used to present horror movies as "Count Scary". Around here, you could get the glasses at Farmer Jacks, or as an insert in the newspaper.

I still have mine.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

RRJackson said:

mamallama said:

Now when they implement the holographic 3D TV, it might be the next big thing. With those glasses, it'll remain a niche gimmick, like those old stereo 35mm cameras were.

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I don't see a problem with wearing the glasses, but the quality of the glasses varies so much. I saw Avatar over the holidays in Tampa and the glasses were OK. A friend wanted to see it last Thursday and we went to a theater in Orlando where they had yellow plastic glasses with very thin optics that seemed to flare constantly throughout the movie. I had flares on the top right and left edge pretty much all through the movie. With the trend towards more Real D movies likely to increase quite a bit it may be time to buy a pair of decent glasses to take with me from here on out.

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As far as I know, Real D always uses the same black glasses, everywhere in the world.



They always use the same projection technique: electronically rotating circular polarizers, 72 full cycles (left and right) per second, 3 flashes per eye per 24 frame/second frame.

I think the yellow glasses were IMAX 3D. Where they rather square in appearance? IMAX uses at least five different glasses, depending on the theater and the projector available: linear polarized with frames in a variety of colors (I've seen clear, red, yellow, and green), circular with black frames more like "Aviator" glasses than the Real D format, smaller circular polarized again with colored frames, black electronic shutter glasses that look like big "state trooper" sunglasses, and huge metallic silver electronic shutter glasses that look like a mask.

At my local 20 screen cineplex, they now have three digital 3D capable theaters, two Real D and one IMAX. The weird thing is the larger Real D has the same screen size as the IMAX and Real D is arguably the better process, so I'm not sure what IMAX brings to the table.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

RRJackson said:

mamallama said:

Now when they implement the holographic 3D TV, it might be the next big thing. With those glasses, it'll remain a niche gimmick, like those old stereo 35mm cameras were.

Click to expand...

I don't see a problem with wearing the glasses, but the quality of the glasses varies so much. I saw Avatar over the holidays in Tampa and the glasses were OK. A friend wanted to see it last Thursday and we went to a theater in Orlando where they had yellow plastic glasses with very thin optics that seemed to flare constantly throughout the movie. I had flares on the top right and left edge pretty much all through the movie. With the trend towards more Real D movies likely to increase quite a bit it may be time to buy a pair of decent glasses to take with me from here on out.

Click to expand...

As far as I know, Real D always uses the same black glasses, everywhere in the world.



They always use the same projection technique: electronically rotating circular polarizers, 72 full cycles (left and right) per second, 3 flashes per eye per 24 frame/second frame.

I think the yellow glasses were IMAX 3D.

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They are. I tracked down a discussion about Avatar on IMAX around the country.

Did they look like this?



Those are a common style of glasses used at theme parks all over the world, including IMAX equipped theaters. They have linear polarizers at +/45 degrees from vertical. Ghosting at the edges die to parallax on curved screens and/or curved lenses in the glasses, ghosting over the entire image when you tilt your head.

Our local 3D photography club (the Detroit Stereographic Society. What? You don't have a local 3D photography club in your city?) uses theme park style glasses. Ours are gray, and uncomfortable as heck. They're around $2 each ($4 for the "jumbo size" that can be worn over glasses) when you buy enough for a club.

I have a good pair of metal frame Avaitor glasses that work with IMAX format. They cost me $15



Linear polarizers are in use so many places that you can get a variety of "fashion" glasses set up with the +/-45 degree style polarizers. Here's an assortment that range from about 50 cents to $15.









Circular polarizers aren't in as widespread use, yet, so your glasses choices are more limited, and the price is about double that of the linear polarizers. I keep meaning to order myself a pair of the metal frame avaitors, but the dang things cost $30 a pair, and I never quite manage to click the order button.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

I think the yellow glasses were IMAX 3D. Where they rather square in appearance? IMAX uses at least five different glasses, depending on the theater and the projector available: linear polarized with frames in a variety of colors (I've seen clear, red, yellow, and green), circular with black frames more like "Aviator" glasses than the Real D format, smaller circular polarized again with colored frames, black electronic shutter glasses that look like big "state trooper" sunglasses, and huge metallic silver electronic shutter glasses that look like a mask.

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Both times I've seen it I was at an IMAX theater. The first time with the black aviator-style glasses (which were OK) and the second with the horrible yellow monstrosities.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

At my local 20 screen cineplex, they now have three digital 3D capable theaters, two Real D and one IMAX. The weird thing is the larger Real D has the same screen size as the IMAX and Real D is arguably the better process, so I'm not sure what IMAX brings to the table.

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You make a good point. Anymore the only thing I can really find superior about the IMAX experience is the audio, and that isn't even always the case. They're supposedly looking at upgrading the whole chain to 4K Christie projectors soon. If that happens they've bought themselves another...what, three years? If they don't get ahead of the curve pretty soon people will be reminiscing about IMAX the way they do about Technicolor or Cinerama.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Did they look like this?

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Yeah, that's the one that did it to me, officer. That yellow one.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Those are a common style of glasses used at theme parks all over the world, including IMAX equipped theaters. They have linear polarizers at +/45 degrees from vertical. Ghosting at the edges die to parallax on curved screens and/or curved lenses in the glasses, ghosting over the entire image when you tilt your head.

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Horrible. A constant annoyance throughout the screening.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Our local 3D photography club (the Detroit Stereographic Society. What? You don't have a local 3D photography club in your city?) uses theme park style glasses. Ours are gray, and uncomfortable as heck. They're around $2 each ($4 for the "jumbo size" that can be worn over glasses) when you buy enough for a club.

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Wow. I knew a guy who used to shoot stereo Kodachrome. And a friend of mine who works for DC Comics used to shoot a lot of stereo and had one of those funky screens to project them. That was fun. I've always kinda been interested. It seems like something that would be more fun for macro than shooting at a distance, though. Wish I had a local club. ;-)

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

I have a good pair of metal frame Avaitor glasses that work with IMAX format. They cost me $15

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Cool. It's a sale!

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Exactly. It's a "treat". It's like cocoa dusted chocolate truffles.

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Well, and it's effectively pretty much impossible to bootleg in 3D right now. And useless, since almost nobody is set up to view 3D at home. So there's a reason to go spend money and attend a screening. That's been evaporating since home theater started to take off.

It was a Halloween special. Just asked a friend that remembered this.