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Rich
Guest
Are the ones I can think of offhand. And both were ahead of time come to think of it
Rich
Rich
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Official Sigma SD-9 Announment
- Thread starter Ross Clark
- Start date
Kok Chen
Leading Member
It is not true that the Foveon sensor can get away without requiring an anti-aliasing filter in the optical path.
Unless the lens that you use produces no spatial frequencies above half the sampling lattice of the sensor, you will always require an anti-aliasing filter. Even Prof. Mead cannot avoid the Shannon-Nyquist rule.
However, even here the Foveon sensor does have a distinct advantage.
With respect to anti-aliasing filters, the Foveon sensor can use the same amount of spatial low-pass filtering for all optical wavelengths.
Such is not true with a sensor based on the Bayer mosaic. With the Bayer sensors, the red and blue channels require a filter with a spatial cut-off frequency that is 1.4 times lower in resolution than the green channel's anti-aliasing filter.
So, if you are stuck with using a common (i.e., common for all wavelengths of light) anti-aliasing filter in a Bayer scheme, either the green channel has to be knocked down in resolution beyond the ideal, thereby losing total image resolution, or else the red and green anti-aliasing filters will have to be too wide in spatial frequency, thereby allowing aliasing effects to take place.
Unless the lens that you use produces no spatial frequencies above half the sampling lattice of the sensor, you will always require an anti-aliasing filter. Even Prof. Mead cannot avoid the Shannon-Nyquist rule.
However, even here the Foveon sensor does have a distinct advantage.
With respect to anti-aliasing filters, the Foveon sensor can use the same amount of spatial low-pass filtering for all optical wavelengths.
Such is not true with a sensor based on the Bayer mosaic. With the Bayer sensors, the red and blue channels require a filter with a spatial cut-off frequency that is 1.4 times lower in resolution than the green channel's anti-aliasing filter.
So, if you are stuck with using a common (i.e., common for all wavelengths of light) anti-aliasing filter in a Bayer scheme, either the green channel has to be knocked down in resolution beyond the ideal, thereby losing total image resolution, or else the red and green anti-aliasing filters will have to be too wide in spatial frequency, thereby allowing aliasing effects to take place.
- kc
R
Rich
Guest
David
I really wish Sigma would release a mount adapter, it would be a good will gesture at least on the part of Sigma and it would make the hunt for compatible lenses vastly easier on the used market. But is that what Sigma really wants???
I'm don't think that you are the kind of person Sigma is trying to go after. Someone who has a large Nikon glass collection is probably not going to go for the sd9. I think they're after newer photographers who don't yet have a lens collection. Sure it would be "nice" if they would come out with a mount adapter, they might see how the sd9 is going without one and then based on feedback play it from there.
Rich
I really wish Sigma would release a mount adapter, it would be a good will gesture at least on the part of Sigma and it would make the hunt for compatible lenses vastly easier on the used market. But is that what Sigma really wants???
I'm don't think that you are the kind of person Sigma is trying to go after. Someone who has a large Nikon glass collection is probably not going to go for the sd9. I think they're after newer photographers who don't yet have a lens collection. Sure it would be "nice" if they would come out with a mount adapter, they might see how the sd9 is going without one and then based on feedback play it from there.
Rich
D
Darrell Spreen
Guest
It was an old article in a British photo magazine as I recall. Not so much
referring to pros as to serious photographers (advanced amateurs, photo
hobbiests, etc. -- the people who have been targeted by all the manufacturers
who brought out a new 35mm SLR model every year or two). I probably fit the mold.
I went from Pentax to Canon FD to Canon AF in the course of about 20 years.
I tried to avoid changing systems but I got "sold" (or sold myself).
I agree the SD9 could be tempting -- but that's the point I was trying to make
about the probable size of the market they're after. Lots of potential sales
to people who are willing to switch systems or who have not committed to
a DSLR.
Darrell
Karl Guttag
Senior Member
As has been pointed out, the D30 went through this and did not have units October. In October 2000, however, one could buy one within a week if you looked around (I know from personal experience). This suggests that Canon was ready to go for the XMAS 2000 season. But as I remember it, there were some full size samples floating around.
It would be a pretty standard announcement flow for a new product aimed for major sales by XMAS to announce in February, Start building products in the summer, and then sell like crazy in October - December. It only takes one signficant hiccup to cost 2 to 3 months and make a mess of the plans.
I wonder if Sigma/Foveon will be able to ramp. It can be very dangerous to try and ramp to quickly as one might find problems in the early production that can cause major financial problems. On the other hand with first products scheduled for late October, they are very close to missing 2002 XMAS and then getting into the February 2002 announcements.
They are probably 3 months later than they wanted to be. Their choice is the roll the dice and ramp product quickly (and somewhat blindly) or to have a slow ramp and see what happens next year.
Karl
Karl
It would be a pretty standard announcement flow for a new product aimed for major sales by XMAS to announce in February, Start building products in the summer, and then sell like crazy in October - December. It only takes one signficant hiccup to cost 2 to 3 months and make a mess of the plans.
I wonder if Sigma/Foveon will be able to ramp. It can be very dangerous to try and ramp to quickly as one might find problems in the early production that can cause major financial problems. On the other hand with first products scheduled for late October, they are very close to missing 2002 XMAS and then getting into the February 2002 announcements.
They are probably 3 months later than they wanted to be. Their choice is the roll the dice and ramp product quickly (and somewhat blindly) or to have a slow ramp and see what happens next year.
Karl
--
Karl
Ross Clark
Member
I am sure that many people who replied to this forum did not understand on how Foveon imaging senor works. There are strong arguments on 3.43 MP resolution as too low, or equal to 6MP resolution, but most people have not yet to see the images. Presently, there are two official web sites to give you the Foveon imaging sensor concept and some prototype Foveon image samples as were taken at least nine months ago.
http://www.foveon.net for sensor concept and images
http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/index.htm for images
I checked the images with PhotoShop and boy, I was impressed. I hope that Signma will live up with its promise to produce professional-like images with its SD-9 body and lenses. In next several weeks, we will be seeing the Sigma images in the Internet after Photokina and Phil's review on Signma SD-9. Only time will tell.
http://www.foveon.net for sensor concept and images
http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/index.htm for images
I checked the images with PhotoShop and boy, I was impressed. I hope that Signma will live up with its promise to produce professional-like images with its SD-9 body and lenses. In next several weeks, we will be seeing the Sigma images in the Internet after Photokina and Phil's review on Signma SD-9. Only time will tell.
tim martin
Senior Member
That's right, I think. Considering it's a new type of camera, they might
be a bit limited in terms of manufacturing large quantities, and so if
they are going to sell you one of the precious few cameras they can
get out of their manufacturing plant, then maybe they will be
demanding in terms of what they want in return. That is, you will need
to buy their lenses too.
But later, if things change, they could decide to make a mount
adapter.
tim martin
Senior Member
Geez, Karl, I guess in your circle of family and friends everybody is
more generous than in mine. Sure, I can ask for a two or three
thousand dollar camera, but my girlfriend would just laugh.
Although, truthfully, I think sometimes around XMAS time everybody
has been guilty of looking for a good gift to buy for themselves.
Karl Guttag
Senior Member
Yes, I agree that not many people are given $2,000 cameras with $300 and up lenses. But there is an inclination to buy it for themselves or have an excused to buy it "for the family" in the 4th quarter. A lot of spending goes on in 4th quarter for all sorts of reasons. Usually 1st quarter is pretty slow.
For the individual there are a lot of excuses to buy a Camera with the events that go on in and around the holidays including Thanksgiving, XMAS, and vacations.
Businesses and the Goverment have budgets and they often get seem to spend anything left in the budget in 4th Quarter. The Government seemed to particularly feel the need to spend any "excess money" in 4th quarter because if they did not spend it they would not get as much next year (this is Goverment "logic").
Karl
Karl
For the individual there are a lot of excuses to buy a Camera with the events that go on in and around the holidays including Thanksgiving, XMAS, and vacations.
Businesses and the Goverment have budgets and they often get seem to spend anything left in the budget in 4th Quarter. The Government seemed to particularly feel the need to spend any "excess money" in 4th quarter because if they did not spend it they would not get as much next year (this is Goverment "logic").
Karl
--Geez, Karl, I guess in your circle of family and friends everybody is
more generous than in mine. Sure, I can ask for a two or three
thousand dollar camera, but my girlfriend would just laugh.
Although, truthfully, I think sometimes around XMAS time everybody
has been guilty of looking for a good gift to buy for themselves.
Karl
tim martin
Senior Member
Yup. I agree with everything you have written here.
kalahari
Senior Member
You are right. I looked at the ones I saved on my Hard drive. They were not full size.
Sean Keegan
Senior Member
Yes they were full size at one point. I have no idea why they downsampled them on their website. I downloaded the full size images months ago. I have always thought that these square prototype images were better than any 6mp DSLR out currently. I also have a resolution chart shot from the X3 that resolves every line on the chart perfectly. The sensor went beyond what the chart could test! The only camera that came close to what the X3 could do was the Fuji S2, which is what I bought since I gave up waiting for the Foveon. Also, having a square sensor is an advantage in testing with a resolution chart, so I am not positive the Foveon will beat the S2 in total resolution. It will be interesting to see Phil's review when it comes out. I know it will clearly beat the S2 as far as artifacts, which are present, but not much of an issue.... can never see them in prints. Moire is very easy to get rid of in photoshop too.
Regards,
Sean
Regards,
Sean
kalahari
Senior Member
Oops I take that back. They were full size...I am going brain dead.
I saw them on 3/17/2002 at the Foveon website. I do not know how long they had been up on the site.
Kalahari
I saw them on 3/17/2002 at the Foveon website. I do not know how long they had been up on the site.
Kalahari
Bill Marks
Well-known member
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1382848612
Surprise, surprise, no bids yet... What a joke...
rgds,
sjh
Surprise, surprise, no bids yet... What a joke...
rgds,
sjh
David Barkin
Senior Member
ResIpsaLoquitur
Senior Member
Canon have announced an 11mp+ DSLR. Now Kodak are supposed to be about to launch a 13.5mp Nikon bodied DSLR. Heck, even the Fuji S2 has 12mp output, although 6mp of that is sophisticated interpolation.
The world has moved on since the SD9 was announced. Presumably that is why it is priced to compete at the bottom of the market.
Q
The world has moved on since the SD9 was announced. Presumably that is why it is priced to compete at the bottom of the market.
Q
R
Rich
Guest
Q
Aww, come on, just because the sd9 is not competing with the new 11mp cameras doesn't mean they've missed the boat. I reckon the sd9 will drop a few hundred more, that will make it more competitive, approaching the higher-end prosumer territory of the 5700 and E-20.
I think they're getting in at just the right time, provided they can afford to price it in the right category. Now $2000 for an Olydak is another matter.
Rich
Aww, come on, just because the sd9 is not competing with the new 11mp cameras doesn't mean they've missed the boat. I reckon the sd9 will drop a few hundred more, that will make it more competitive, approaching the higher-end prosumer territory of the 5700 and E-20.
I think they're getting in at just the right time, provided they can afford to price it in the right category. Now $2000 for an Olydak is another matter.
Rich
Z (is real)
Senior Member
Canon D30 announced, with pricing and availability date, on May 17th, 2000. Samples shot by Phil avaialble in August of 2000. (Canon samples available earlier.) Camera in my hands November 1st 2000.
-Z-
-Z-
Z (is real)
Senior Member
The D30 had sample pictures, from independent third parties, available about three months after announcement of pricing and availability dates. (This information is easily obtainable from Phil's timeline page.) I had a camera less than six months after announcement of pricing and availability that WITHOUT A PREORDER.
The problem with Foveon/Sigma is not that they can't DELIVER product, but that they haven't even proved they have a product. After six months, claims of vastly superior image quality with no images should basically be regarded as lies. E.g. Contax. Who spent two years without any proof and
-Z-
The problem with Foveon/Sigma is not that they can't DELIVER product, but that they haven't even proved they have a product. After six months, claims of vastly superior image quality with no images should basically be regarded as lies. E.g. Contax. Who spent two years without any proof and
-Z-
tim martin
Senior Member
I agree, and I would add, are these 11mp cameras going to be
selling for less than $2000 ?
If somebody feels they need 11mp, that's fine, but maybe with
a 6mp camera, or a Foveon X3, a lot of people might feel things
are getting good enough.
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