Micro Four Thirds vs Highest End Compacts

greetings friends... I wonder if you can help me make a difficult decision.

I'm about to purchase my next camera and can't decide (for the 5th camera in a row)

I'm a DJ and therefore spend most of my time in nightclubs (low light, club lighting, lots of movement etc) but as someone with a keen interest in photography want to start taking some shots with more impact than a standard point n click.

My only real restriction is that as my DJ gear already fills my bag - the DSLR route is one I can't go down, so I have done a whole heap of magazine research (and lots on this site too) and come up with a difficult choice. I think I'm really in the Highest end of compacts range, or the new hybrid range (given my space / weight restrictions)

In particular the models I've been looking at are

Canon G11
Ricoh GRD III

Olympus PEN E-P1
Panasonic Lumix DMC G1

Can anyone comment on the bits I've listed above, or suggest alternatives based on my requirements? All help - as ever - greatly appreciated.

I've actually wrote about s90, gf1 and ep-1 camera on my website, s90 is similar to g11, I had the g11 as well but returned for s90 because it was a lot smaller and easier to carry around. go see review and sample on my site, and see if you like the sample pictures I took at night, those should suit your night club scenes.

http://www.sanweng.com/canon-s90-goes-to-new-york/
http://www.sanweng.com/panasonic-gf1-olympus-e-p1-review-from-an-amature/
--
San
http://www.sanweng.com

I would add the Panasonic LX3 to your compact list. Beyond that, it's really a matter of your own personal ergonomics, mass constraints and preferred feature set.

The G11 has a tilt/swivel screen, making it very versatile when it comes to taking shots. It is the only camera on your list, compact or MFT, that has this feature. It is smaller than MFT bodies but bulkier than the LX3 and GRDIII.

The LX3 arguably has the best quality lens of the compacts. It most certainly is the widest, but it is only 24-60mm EFL, making the zoom on the G11 superior at 28-140mm EFL. The GRD III has a fixed 28mm EFL. Both the LX3 and GRD III have fast lenses (f/2 versus f1/.9, which honestly sounds like a marketing gimmick so let's just say they're both f/2), which probably gives them an advantage in low light.

UI is more or less a personal choice as all three have modern, comprehensive controls and screens. How they are organized and how the buttons are arranged is more personal taste than anything else.

If it helps, I was considering G11, LX3 or an MFT a few months ago, realized I like my E-330 enough to keep using it, and honestly wanted something compact. The G11, while I envy the tilt/swivel screen, was too bulky. From experience with the compact I was going to replace, I realized I 90% of the time use it wide and so the zoom on the G11 was not an advantage. With that in mind, plus the f/2 speed of the lens, well, I went with the LX3. The screen is bright and has a decent enough viewing angle that I can still lift it above me and compose, but the versatility of the G11's LCD viewfinder is the only compromise I made with my decision. Everything else was pro-LX3.

Your choice may be different.

Pavlos Varnavides said:

greetings friends... I wonder if you can help me make a difficult decision.

I'm about to purchase my next camera and can't decide (for the 5th camera in a row)

I'm a DJ and therefore spend most of my time in nightclubs (low light, club lighting, lots of movement etc) but as someone with a keen interest in photography want to start taking some shots with more impact than a standard point n click.

My only real restriction is that as my DJ gear already fills my bag - the DSLR route is one I can't go down, so I have done a whole heap of magazine research (and lots on this site too) and come up with a difficult choice. I think I'm really in the Highest end of compacts range, or the new hybrid range (given my space / weight restrictions)

In particular the models I've been looking at are

Canon G11
Ricoh GRD III

Olympus PEN E-P1
Panasonic Lumix DMC G1

Can anyone comment on the bits I've listed above, or suggest alternatives based on my requirements? All help - as ever - greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

no text here

For night clubs I'd be looking for the fastest glass I could find and a camera that could handle high ISO shots with as little noise as possible.

If I were in your shoes, I'd really take a hard look at either the GF-1 or the E-P1/2 with the Panasonic 20mm lens. Consider also that the E-P1/2 has in-body image stabilization and while it won't help with reducing the blur of a moving subject and slow shutter, it could help out in other low-light situations when the subject(s) aren't moving (or moving too fast).

--

'Photography has not changed since its origin except in its technical aspects, which for me are not a major concern.'
--- Henri Cartier-Bresson

NT

I would second the opinion that the LX3 (or Leica D Lux-4) would serve your purposes better than the G11. It's a far better low light machine; fast lens and a slightly bigger sensor.

Of the M43 cameras the EP-1 has the least effective auto focus in low light situations. The G1, while a bt larger, is the only M43 to have a very bright, effective EVF and a high resolution twist and flip LCD. The EP-2 does have an EVF but the AF may still be a problem. In any case, if you go M43 you certainly want the 20mm f1.7 Panasonic lens.

Good luck on the decision, we've all gone through similar selection issues.

alan.

The problem with that is that 40mm EFL is not friendly for tight spaces. The compacts have IS as well and are far less bulky than the MFT bodies, and have at least 28mm EFL for wide shots. To be honest, considering the constraints made by the OP, the MFTs shouldn't even be considered.

I wonder that as he is a DJ he is considering the video capabilities. He may want to view the clips examples from these cameras to help with his decision.

roblarosa said:

For night clubs I'd be looking for the fastest glass I could find and a camera that could handle high ISO shots with as little noise as possible.

If I were in your shoes, I'd really take a hard look at either the GF-1 or the E-P1/2 with the Panasonic 20mm lens. Consider also that the E-P1/2 has in-body image stabilization and while it won't help with reducing the blur of a moving subject and slow shutter, it could help out in other low-light situations when the subject(s) aren't moving (or moving too fast).

--

'Photography has not changed since its origin except in its technical aspects, which for me are not a major concern.'
--- Henri Cartier-Bresson

Click to expand...

I agree with the post recommending the LX3 - if you go with a high end compact the LX3 may be better than G11, as you will need a fast lens and good flash. Good luck!
Jim

Nikon D700 + 50/1.4G... its fairly compact and you can shoot iso6400 @ f1.4 with no problems or need for noise reduction. It will be the last camera you need for a very long time and will let you grow with all its controls and such.

Pavlos Varnavides said:

greetings friends... I wonder if you can help me make a difficult decision.

I'm about to purchase my next camera and can't decide (for the 5th camera in a row)

I'm a DJ and therefore spend most of my time in nightclubs (low light, club lighting, lots of movement etc) but as someone with a keen interest in photography want to start taking some shots with more impact than a standard point n click.

My only real restriction is that as my DJ gear already fills my bag - the DSLR route is one I can't go down, so I have done a whole heap of magazine research (and lots on this site too) and come up with a difficult choice. I think I'm really in the Highest end of compacts range, or the new hybrid range (given my space / weight restrictions)

In particular the models I've been looking at are

Canon G11
Ricoh GRD III

Olympus PEN E-P1
Panasonic Lumix DMC G1

Can anyone comment on the bits I've listed above, or suggest alternatives based on my requirements? All help - as ever - greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

In that kind of environment you need something with a really good low light performance, think - full frame DSLR with fast prime lens. But those are:

1. big (they are the biggest DSLR bodies)
2. expensive

You could get an APSC DSLR but those are not much smaller, and not much less expensive either.

So your next option is a small camera with a pancake lens. Get a micro four thirds camera with the Panasonic 20mm F1.7 lens. Body options:

• Panasonic GF1: fast autofocus, flash included, no in-body stabilization
• Olympus EP 1 or 2: in-body stabilization but slow autofocus and no onboard flash

Hard to tell which one is better for you. Probably the GF1, since the stabi doesn't matter that much. Also, Oly, no flash onboard? Helllooo... It's nice to have a camera with good low light performance, but even the best sensor is helpless when lighting is really tough.

I believe there are places where you can buy the GF1 together with the 20mm lens as a kit (if you're lucky).

A G1 is good too (I own one) and it has a very nice swivel LCD that allows you to take pictures from very unusual angles (overhead shots, or shooting from the hip) with zero problems. But it's bigger than the GF1.

Another suggestion if you can wait a few months: keep an eye on the upcoming Samsung NX10. Seems to be similar to the cameras mentioned above.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forget the compacts. They are not even close to what you need in such an environment.

--
Florin Andrei
http://florin.myip.org/

I'd agree totally with the GF1 / G1 + 20mm 1.7.
Works superbly as a combination.

I have the G1 too, and the deep grip is a major plus in a lively situation ... I generally hold mine by the fingertips when walking around, but in a club I suspect having both the EVF and the LCD available to either rough compose with the tensioned strap or else carefully compose with the EVF might be a better bet than the Gf1.

Benefits of the swivel LCD can't be understimated either ...

And yes - the high end compacts are too fiddly in those situations (I have the D-Lux 4 as well)

florinandrei said:

A G1 is good too (I own one) and it has a very nice swivel LCD that allows you to take pictures from very unusual angles (overhead shots, or shooting from the hip) with zero problems. But it's bigger than the GF1.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forget the compacts. They are not even close to what you need in such an environment.

--
Florin Andrei
http://florin.myip.org/

Click to expand...

--
Moro

roblarosa said:

For night clubs I'd be looking for the fastest glass I could find and a camera that could handle high ISO shots with as little noise as possible.

If I were in your shoes, I'd really take a hard look at either the GF-1 or the E-P1/2 with the Panasonic 20mm lens. Consider also that the E-P1/2 has in-body image stabilization and while it won't help with reducing the blur of a moving subject and slow shutter, it could help out in other low-light situations when the subject(s) aren't moving (or moving too fast).

Click to expand...

I should have said "help help out in other low-light situations when the subject(s) aren't moving (or moving too fast) and counter any hand shake at slower shutter speeds .

paultakeda said:

The problem with that is that 40mm EFL is not friendly for tight spaces. The compacts have IS as well and are far less bulky than the MFT bodies, and have at least 28mm EFL for wide shots. To be honest, considering the constraints made by the OP, the MFTs shouldn't even be considered.

Click to expand...

It's true that 40mm isn't that wide, but it is wider than a "normal" lens and normal lenses are approximate to human field of view. So, it still may be OK for tight spaces. The thing I'd be most concerned about is noise and slow glass. In which case, most compacts shouldn't be considered. Even the LX3 and the G11 can't handle noise as well as the M43.

Another poster made the point of low autofocus of the E-p1&2. That could be an issue, but the GF-1 should be able to deal with that issue.

Pavlos Varnavides said:

greetings friends... I wonder if you can help me make a difficult decision.

I'm about to purchase my next camera and can't decide (for the 5th camera in a row)

I'm a DJ and therefore spend most of my time in nightclubs (low light, club lighting, lots of movement etc) but as someone with a keen interest in photography want to start taking some shots with more impact than a standard point n click.

Click to expand...

Low light ...club lighting, lots of of movement...would eliminate the EP1 from the list as it does not have a AF Assist beam to aid in low light focusing and its AFspeed is its weakest attribute. The G11 is wonderful for what it is...but it still has a 'relatively' small sensor as does the Ricoh...compared th the Micro 4/3rds cameras. The G1's kit lens is excellent...and its IQ better than the compact P&S cameras, but the kit lens covers the equivalent of a 28mm to 90mm ...so you might want/need more lenses.

Pavlos Varnavides said:

My only real restriction is that as my DJ gear already fills my bag - the DSLR route is one I can't go down, so I have done a whole heap of magazine research (and lots on this site too) and come up with a difficult choice. I think I'm really in the Highest end of compacts range, or the new hybrid range (given my space / weight restrictions)

In particular the models I've been looking at are

Canon G11
Ricoh GRD III

Olympus PEN E-P1
Panasonic Lumix DMC G1

Can anyone comment on the bits I've listed above, or suggest alternatives based on my requirements? All help - as ever - greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

Unless all your shots are to be posed with subjects standing still you need fast shutter speed. In turn, the fast shutter speed requirement means you need a fast lens for the low light to keep the shutter speed up and you need high ISO capability that is relatively noise free. Whether you need a wide angle lens or a normal lens will depend on what you plan to shoot, large groups, or individuals or small groups, and the distance you expect to be from the subjects. You will need flash capabilities unless your club is brighter than most and you also want fast AF to catch the action. Given all of these constraints I would come down to the GF-1/20mmf1.7, the GXR/A12 and the new NX-10/30mmf2.0, if you can wait for it, or if you can tolerate a little larger size the G1/20mmf1.7 or the GH1/20mmf1.7. These will be the smallest cameras that can meet your requirements with the NX-10 and GXR/A12 having the best low light capability (caveat, the GXR/A12 does not have fast AF so that may rule it out)
--
John
Visit my web gallery at:
http://www.barjohn.com/My Photographs/index.html
Comments and critiques welcome.

If you compare the S90 & G11 and maybe the LX3 to micro 4/3 with the 20/1.7, you get compacts with fast lenses (only at wider zoom settings, which is ok) versus the 20/1.7; compacts that can do high ISO "ok" versus micro 4/3 that can do high ISO "better" so some advantage to micro 4/3 in terms of how well you can shoot in low light. The other significant factor is depth of field. With the smaller sensors you get more when you shoot wide open and that can be good or bad depending on what you want to see in your club shots.

I don't know that I'd bother with micro 4/3 without the pancake lens. The kit zooms are a bit bigger and are definitely slower. You lose a stop and a half maybe in lens speed and if you're looking at the S90 or G11 at ISO 1250 versus micro 4/3 at ISO 3200 there's probably not a whole lot of difference, especially if you won't be printing too big.

• Dennis

--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

For available light shooting then imho a minimum 4/3 system. If you want to use flash then G11 or LX3 with a real flash gun. (you may also need a real flash gun for the 4/3 system as well in some situations) this is because the onboard flash does not put out enough light and has a limited range.

"Spend most of your time in low light situations" + don't want bulky dSLR + want better IQ than compacts = Panasonic GF1 + 20mm1.7

You're environment is one of the toughest there is. You've got bright lights, and very dark corners. And skin tones.

the micro 4/3 with the Pana 20mm f1.7, or a G1 for that matter is a poor minimum but they are small. Really, buy a bigger bag! If your price sensitive, buy the m4/3 that's bundled with the Pana 20mm f1.7 lens.

The problem with the Pana 20mm 1.7 is that its too narrow for what you want, and I presume you often stuck in one place. And forget the Gf1's flash, its useless for most applications, and especially for group action. You'll need to buy a proper flash for any m4/3 IMO.

But you'd be much better off to buy a full frame DSLR. With one you'll capture both the action, and the shadows. Full frames can operate at speeds of 32,000 - they don't start loosing their performance at 800 speeds. With a higher speed, the shutter will not have to stay open for as long. Which will mean the action will not be blurred. Also a full frame would allow you to get the whole room in ( a full frame DSLR provides twice the "width" from its lens than does a micro 4/3). There's far more options with such cameras too.

IMO micro 4/3 is not there yet for your situation, and probably will take a sensor technology leapfrog in order to meet your requirements.