SSS MLU Test Shots on Tripod CONCLUSIONS?

tompower53 said:

Since you did not use a remote release in this test it is a waste of your time other than to see if SSS might dampen the movement caused by you pressing the shutter button. MLU and remote release need to be used together, period, end of story - but the remote release is effective without MLU (not on 2 sec timer).

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But is that actually the case? Are you telling us that the vibration caused by squeezing the shutter button lasts for 2 seconds? If so, I've been doing it wrong all this time! As well as redcuing mirror slap at certain shutter speeds, I was also advised - by a leading wildlife photographer - that MLU was useful in situations where one didn't have remote release. ie by the time the shutter opened, any movement cuased by the pressing of the shutter release would long since have vanished.

Yes the vibration of the hand pressing of the shutter button might or might not be gone by the time the shutter releases depending on the tripod you use how much you jiggle the camera etc. If you are concerned about the vibration and are using the MLU feature just use the D%$n cable release and take that out of the equation and stop with the silly useless arguments here about "what would happen if all the planets aligned and the moon was full while I used a CF tripod with the MLU in 92% humidity".

I am going to say this one more time and I am done to all you hard heads out there. If you want maximum sharpness and are shooting off a solid tripod then take the time to use MLU and a cable release, turn of SSS and quit trying to figure out if under some ridiculous set of circumstances you might be able to achieve the same result without doing that.

If for some reason you don't have the extra 1 minute it takes to set that up then still take the shot and very probably your result will still be pretty near the same a lot of the times if you use good technique.

Can things get any clearer than this or can someone else here introduce yet again some esoteric argument?

By the way a 3' cable release can be bought off the internet for $9.99 including shipping that seems to me every bit the equal of my $59 sony one that was a pain to use because the cable was to long. The exact same functionality.
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tom power

tompower53 said:

Tompower wrote "Since you did not use a remote release in this test it is a waste of your time other than to see if SSS might dampen the movement caused by you pressing the shutter button. MLU and remote release need to be used together, period, end of story - but the remote release is effective without MLU (not on 2 sec timer). "

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This comment suggests that MLU is not actually required ? However if you did d mean that " MLU and remote release need to be used together" then what are A450,500 & 550 owners expected to do ?? The flaw in your assertion is that MLU & a remote timer need to be used together & that is just not true - it won't hurt to use a remote as well but it is not essential as you are suggesting.

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Keith-C

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tom power

tompower53 said:

Yes the vibration of the hand pressing of the shutter button might or might not be gone by the time the shutter releases depending on the tripod you use how much you jiggle the camera etc. If you are concerned about the vibration and are using the MLU feature just use the D%$n cable release and take that out of the equation and stop with the silly useless arguments here about "what would happen if all the planets aligned and the moon was full while I used a CF tripod with the MLU in 92% humidity".

I am going to say this one more time and I am done to all you hard heads out there. If you want maximum sharpness and are shooting off a solid tripod then take the time to use MLU and a cable release, turn of SSS and quit trying to figure out if under some ridiculous set of circumstances you might be able to achieve the same result without doing that.

If for some reason you don't have the extra 1 minute it takes to set that up then still take the shot and very probably your result will still be pretty near the same a lot of the times if you use good technique.

Can things get any clearer than this or can someone else here introduce yet again some esoteric argument?

By the way a 3' cable release can be bought off the internet for $9.99 including shipping that seems to me every bit the equal of my $59 sony one that was a pain to use because the cable was to long. The exact same functionality.
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tom power

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I don't understand the need for that response, Tom. I was merely pointing out that it has been suggested, by a professional, that MLU is a viable alternative to avoid shutter shake when one doesn't have a remote release to hand. If you've never, ever, forgotten to take a piece of kit with you, then bully for you. Some of us lesser mortals do leave the odd item at home occasionally.

I did suggest that I was uncertain as to whether the advice was sound (though it makes sense to me) - but I didn't expect that overblown reaction.

I am off to do a little skiing here in Steamboat . Maybe you can find an answer to all your questions if you turn inward and search your soul. You obviously are not interested in listening to anyone else and are more interestred in trying to find exceptions to the basic rules of photography under some unusual circumstance that might crop up.

If shooting for maximum sharpness just use the freakin 2 sec timer MLU with a cable release, good tripod and SSS off if you can - and if you can't then don't.

Off for a couple hours of bumps on my tele's have a great day.
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tom power

I'll forgive you for miss-spelling my name but not for the lie that a cable release has to be used with the two sec timer MLU. Your repeated false assertion actually makes me seriously question whether you have used MLU.
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Keith-C

Yes the "ideal" situation was not used in the test. I could have (should) have used the remote (and that would be a "different" test condition. However the conclusion is valid (for the test that was done) with respect to MLU. If I don't have the cable or remote with me at the time..should I forgo taking the picture..only hypthetical no response required.
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John Y



'You never know what you CAN see'

It adds nothing to the art of photography..merely demonstrates an effect of equiptment usage which can be extended as technique in other artistic forms of photography such as landscapes.
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John Y



'You never know what you CAN see'

You are just being idiotic now maybe you should put down the wine seems like you have had enough.

I never said you HAD to use the cable release with MLU but that is the common procedure to increase your chances of getting the best result. Obviously if you don't have a cable release or don't have it with you - you can still use the MLU/2 sec timer and hand push the shutter release but here you MIGHT not get as good a result as you would get with a remote release. Do you finally get that?.

This is not some new technology that has just sprung up - remote release with MLU when tripod mounted has been common practice for DECADES and using it in exactly this manner is how it has been done (other than the fact that MLU was not on a 2 second timer normally). What part of this is so difficult to understand?

Like wise if you have a camera that does not have MLU you can still use a cable release if you want.

Obviously if you are out in the field and don't have some apparatus available use what you do have. Has this post degenerated to the point where that has to be brought up? We are talking about the way to get the best result WHEN possible with common equipment not every conceivable combination of settings, tripods, cameras and auxiliary equipment.

This is really getting totally ridiculous. For your enlightenment I nearly always use MLU, tripod and cable release if I have the time when shooting landscape and macro. The tripod of course being far and away by a factor of 10 the most important piece in this equation.

This is how even a plodder like me can occasionally come up with some somewhat sharp shots like these. Both taken, of course, with MLU, tripod and cable release -A700 and Tamron 90 2.8.





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tom power

This test has no significant meaning at all. MLU is not meant to effect sharpness on shots with a long exposure - as your exposure is on this test.

That is the problem with much of the commentary in this thread. People talking about and forming opinion on information that is not even relevant to the subject of vibration induced by mirror slap that will effect sharpness.

Mirror slap induced vibration which is what MLU is all about reducing is only a significant problem in a narrow band of shutter speeds. Not long exposures such as this test or very short exposures.

This is not my opinion but fact that I have picked up over the years by listening to people who actually know what they are talking about regarding this subject.

When you start out with a faulty test it does not matter how hard you analyze the data you end up with incorrect conclusions.
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tom power

example of where MLU could provide a sharper more detailed picture and exactly one of the reasons it was designed for and often used. (landscape shots I am talking about)
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tom power

And closeups

Tom

tompower53 said:

I never said you HAD to use the cable release with MLU

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Much of what you say is correct, but it is the manner of your response to my suggestion that MLU could be used as an alternative to remote release, in order to mitigate shutter release vibrations, that amused me.

If you read back through those posts you will realise the reason for my post - I was questioning your assertion that "MLU and remote release need to be used together, period, end of story " . Note the use of the word "need". And the lack of any qualification - "period, end of story". That statement does indeed seem to contradict your claim above.

I wasn't trying to invent some nonsensical or hypothetical situation - if you know how to press a shutter button correctly, vibration should already be minimal - using the 2s delay should eliminate it entirely, removing the need for remote release.

But perhaps that's the issue - I'm talking about the A700's 2s delay - perhaps you are referring to true MLU, where the mirror is raised manualy and then the shutter fired (though I see that you, too, are an A700 user). In that case I would of course agree with you - MLU would be much less effective without remote release.

What I mean is, of course, the less vibration there is, the better.

Now the question is whether the amount of reduction is such that the difference will be visible. On a well-defined object, photographed up close, it seems that the difference is visible. I am however much less convinced that the difference will be visible when photographing objects that are fractal in nature (such as trees) and from a distance, where effects such as the limited resolution, variations in the density of the air over the distance, diffraction from the lens, might be bigger than the positive effect from MLU, resulting in no visible gain.

Beakydave said:

I wasn't trying to invent some nonsensical or hypothetical situation - if you know how to press a shutter button correctly, vibration should already be minimal - using the 2s delay should eliminate it entirely, removing the need for remote release.

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Seems that I don't need a cable release as long as I can learn what I am doing . Great nothing like simplifying my life. Maybe I will keep my cable releases though just in case.

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tom power

if you are going to all the trouble to get to the location, frame the shot, set your camera up on the tripod, input the correct A,S ISO exposure etc. for the shot why would you not take the extra 1 minute to plug in your cable release and use MLU assuming you have the time? Especially if using a longer focal length lens which magnifies any vibration.

Or is this whole thread being discussed by one set of posters who are trying to take the best quality images (with out getting carried away on the technical side) and another set of posters talking about walking around just taking snap shots to email at low resolution?

antoineb said:

Antoineb wrote:

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What I mean is, of course, the less vibration there is, the better.

antoineb said:

Now the question is whether the amount of reduction is such that the difference will be visible. On a well-defined object, photographed up close, it seems that the difference is visible. I am however much less convinced that the difference will be visible when photographing objects that are fractal in nature (such as trees) and from a distance, where effects such as the limited resolution, variations in the density of the air over the distance, diffraction from the lens, might be bigger than the positive effect from MLU, resulting in no visible gain.

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The answer to the question would be a question. Are you trying to get the best quality image without going overboard on the set up? If the answer is yes then the answer will be at times the use of MLU and remote release will without doubt improve your image with very little additional effort. Will it help every image? No. Is one minute of your time in additional set up to much for you to "waste" on the set up for the shot? If so you might not have enough time to pursue photography as a hobby but will still be able to have fun with your camera taking snap shots.

My thought would be that anyone who has enough time to screw around on this forum has enough time to use MLU and remote release, most of the time but not all the time, in situations where it might help.

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tom power

tompower53 said:

Beakydave said:

I wasn't trying to invent some nonsensical or hypothetical situation - if you know how to press a shutter button correctly, vibration should already be minimal - using the 2s delay should eliminate it entirely, removing the need for remote release.

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Seems that I don't need a cable release as long as I can learn what I am doing . Great nothing like simplifying my life. Maybe I will keep my cable releases though just in case.

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Sarcasm being the lowest form of wit.

Unfortunately, the emphasis on the word "need" has disappeared from my quoted remark, thus changing its slant - not helped by tkaing my words out of context. I was pointing out that, whilst a remote release may be desirable, it isn't an essential - as you had previously suggested (and I note that you have neatly side-stepped that particular point)

tompower53 said:

My thought would be that anyone who has enough time to screw around on this forum has enough time to use MLU and remote release, most of the time but not all the time, in situations where it might help.

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tom power

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Rick

Indeed we probably spend (waste?) too much time here, and should spend more time out taking photographs ;-)