SSS MLU Test Shots on Tripod CONCLUSIONS?

For usual focal lengths MLU affects more between 1/2 and 1/30 sec., the 1/30 sec. extreme grows with focal length, with a 300mm it make sense to use MLU at 1/60sec.

But for 20 sec. exposures MLU has almost no effect, since for most of the time the shutter is open the vibrations already stopped.

These shots do look very crisp. However, any mirror vibrations have long since settled down by 8 - 10 seconds. Shutter speeds that are affected most are generally between 1/40th and 1/2 second. This could arguably be expanded to between 1/60th and 2 seconds. For an illustration see the links in my first post above. For the record, I'm not on either side of the MLU debate. I'm simply offering some additional information that I found on the web, recently. However, I have taken a position on the "absolute truth debate, as you can see from my signature.

sodablue said:

I didn't have a nice christmas bulb with detail, so I stuck a CD up on the tree to have something with lettering and detail.

I also only have the cheaper 70-300, so I had to stand back about 6 feet to get it to focus. Now I didn't pay attention, and I see now that you used a wider aperture and a faster shutter. I went with f11, and since the sun is setting and I didn't turn on any lights other then the tree, it's a 10second exposure on the 200mm and a 15second on the 300mm. I slightly overexposed to get a better image, the meter wanted me to do 8sec instead of 10.

no MLU, obviously... and I turned SSS off. I used Manual Focus Live View to focus on the letter e in gyшe. Used my tripod with a remote trigger release.

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--

If the absolute truth is a boulder is falling on your head , 'your truth' is inconsequential at that moment.

Cheers,

Shimbabwe

WaltKnapp said:

ScYcS said:

Now with that being out of the way, the discussion is merely about wether it is a NECESSARY implementation in low end cameras. Nothing more, nothing less is this discussion about.

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If you don't need MLU, why are you even in the discussion.

Walt

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Walt, if you know it all, why do you even dignify anyone with an answer? Seriously, your attitude towards people is downright snoddy and you act as if anyone not agreeing with you is substandard. Your answers lack not only respect for other people but also lack respect for other opinions. Get used to the fact that people do not always agree with you and gosh you could be wrong about things sometimes as well.

Either way, of all the people on this board, you'd be the last that can tell me to not be in any discussion. Was it you who said respect is earned? You earned my disrespect in the last couple of days here with your nose-in-the-air attitude.

I have exactly 3 (!!) people in my ignore list, and Walt, you made it there quicker than anyone before. And the other two...well let's just say you are in good company. Roland Mabo from the Pentax board acts similar to you, maybe you should meet. The third person hasn't posted in a while and i think is gone anyways, so congrats, you reallly "earned" my respect. Not.

to see the results of MLU tests on the models that don't have it.

Tom

The shutter speed is outside the 1/60 to 1/2 sec when MLU is effective.

http://photo.net/learn/nature/mlu

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Rick

cameramen said:

For usual focal lengths MLU affects more between 1/2 and 1/30 sec., the 1/30 sec. extreme grows with focal length, with a 300mm it make sense to use MLU at 1/60sec.

But for 20 sec. exposures MLU has almost no effect, since for most of the time the shutter is open the vibrations already stopped.

Click to expand...

I'll have to try again with 1/10 sec shots.

you know, where are these vibrations exactly? Could this also be a function of the stability and mass of the tripod?

sodablue said:

cameramen said:

For usual focal lengths MLU affects more between 1/2 and 1/30 sec., the 1/30 sec. extreme grows with focal length, with a 300mm it make sense to use MLU at 1/60sec.

But for 20 sec. exposures MLU has almost no effect, since for most of the time the shutter is open the vibrations already stopped.

Click to expand...

I'll have to try again with 1/10 sec shots.

Click to expand...

Ok. However, to compare it's better to have photos with MLU and photos without, but there is no option on your camera.

sodablue said:

you know, where are these vibrations exactly? Could this also be a function of the stability and mass of the tripod?

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The mirror movement makes vibrations, the better the tripod the less vibrations. I read on a Joe McDonald's book that he lessened the vibrations of the Canon T90 with weight over the lens/camera. I wonder what camera he is using now, I'll take a look in his website.

ScYcS said:

I have exactly 3 (!!) people in my ignore list, and Walt, you made it there quicker than anyone before.

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Son why arn't you ignoring? Kind of meaningless list unless you mean it.

Walt

sodablue said:

you know, where are these vibrations exactly? Could this also be a function of the stability and mass of the tripod?

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They travel throughout your support system and every single part of that system matters. One of the major absorber's of the vibrations is actually the ground, if you set up your tripod so the feet actually can transfer them to the ground. And if your tripod's structure gets them there rather than resonating on it's own and reflecting them back to the camera first.

MLU is one part of a system of dealing with vibration, it does not stand alone. The mirror is not even the only source of vibration.

Walt

cameramen said:

sodablue wrote:

Ok. However, to compare it's better to have photos with MLU and photos without, but there is no option on your camera.

Click to expand...

The A-500 does indeed have MLU in Manual Focus Check Live View mode. Manual focus only, of course. However, I have not seen it demonstrated on this forum. Take a photo to determine what the mirror does, then. I don't have the A-500 or I would do it.

--

If the absolute truth is a boulder is falling on your head , 'your truth' is inconsequential at that moment.

Cheers,

Shimbabwe

Shimbabwe said:

cameramen said:

sodablue wrote:

Ok. However, to compare it's better to have photos with MLU and photos without, but there is no option on your camera.

Click to expand...

The A-500 does indeed have MLU in Manual Focus Check Live View mode. Manual focus only, of course. However, I have not seen it demonstrated on this forum. Take a photo to determine what the mirror does, then. I don't have the A-500 or I would do it.

Click to expand...

Alas!! The mirror does a flippity flop before before the exposure. :| Never mind.
--

If the absolute truth is a boulder is falling on your head , 'your truth' is inconsequential at that moment.

Cheers,

Shimbabwe

Dennis Bingham my name is Jim Knights and damn glad to meet you. I APPOLOGIZE for my comment to you. See how my statement about your profile invoked a negative response. I felt "Here we go again"... put the poster and others in the forum on the defensive. And I respect you for being more civil to the original poster in this posting.

Many would be posters are affraid to do little more than lurk in the background if they fear retribution.
Again I appologize for my rude comment.

thx

Jim in VT

Not a problem at all, and no need to apologize either. It's all good. It's the internet, you can't see people's faces when they talk to you, so it's sometimes hard to get the whole picture of what someone wants to say.

Joke aside, your shots obviously suggest that MLU does help in some cases.

Now, does it really matter to be able to get a slightly sharper macro shot of a ball in a christmas tree? I mean, does this shot bring anything to the art of photography?

I'd personally be much more impressed if you showed a great landscape shot and showed MLU to have allowed a cleaner file. But that's just me.

John_Y said:

John_Y wrote:

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Did not use the remote. I did push the shutter release by hand and it could (does) induce "vibration". I guess that is why SSS On has an effect. Using the remote (and it to could be used with MLU..that is the 2 Sec button on the remote) would be "another test case".

Since you did not use a remote release in this test it is a waste of your time other than to see if SSS might dampen the movement caused by you pressing the shutter button. MLU and remote release need to be used together, period, end of story - but the remote release is effective without MLU (not on 2 sec timer).

Hopefully this whole thread has not further confused people who still do not understand this fairly simple concept: If using a solid tripod mount and MLU you should use a cable release and turn off SSS. This might not help the sharpness of your picture but will guarantee that the pressing of the shutter button and the slap of the mirror going up WILL NOT cause any vibration blurring from those two sources and that the Sensor will not be moved by the SSS mechanism as it tries to keep itself centered.

I can understand how new people to this forum might not understand this basic concept but it is getting ridiculous listening to some of the more experienced people here arguing about this basic concept. Black is black and it is not white no matter what kind of argument is thrown this way. It even tells you right in the manual to turn off SSS when tripod mounted. This whole argument is beginning to mirror the Israel/Palestinian problem with people picking sides and not willing to listen to reason or fact.

I propose a ban on this forum regarding MLU and the opening of a new forum on threads such as this that are hashed over and over and over with people ignoring the actual facts and performing flawed tests then using these results to make their point. .
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tom power

Well if using a remote cable release obviates the need to use MLU then why do some Sony cameras even bother to have MLU as a feature ?? A cable release does help to control shutter button induced camera shake , particularly if a relatively flimsy tripod is used but it is ridiculous to suggest that MLU is not needed.

Your wish to have the subject of the use of MLU banned also suggests that the truth can hurt ..........

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Keith-C

Tom , i know where you are coming from and I would agree it was bad practice to release the shutter using a finger rather than a remote shutter release.

I did my own test last night I just layed my A-700 on top of a chest of drawers and used 2 sec MLU and 10 sec none MLU self timer release, SSS turned off, there was a marked difference between the 2 and 10 sec options, the MLU being sharper, they were taken at 1/4 of a second.

What are you talking about? I said that Cable released should "ALWAYS" be used with MLU but that cable release can be used separately.

Holy mackerel this just gets more and more ridiculous.

Having the subject banned was a "tongue in cheek joke" there do you get it now? That was the little smiley face at the end of that comment.
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tom power

Finally someone with some common sense and some understanding of humor. Do you also hear the circus music in the background when reading this board sometimes?

fortunately is also a lot of very good information here that has helped me a lot.

Sometimes though it is just off the wall with the flawed tests and arguments.
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tom power