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London photographers should carry ID, say police

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Jovo

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According to an article in Amateur Photographer on 9 Jan 2010, an Australian photographer landed in hot water when he refused to show his ID to a security guard at a building he had photographed from outside. The result was flashing lights and sirens from 3 police cars and a van!

I had better cancel my plan to visit the UK on a photographic tour...
 
(At least in the States) you have no legal requirement to show your ID to private security. Depending on the building's use they may, of course, choose to call the cops, and act like idiots--and the photographer could probably have handled it better himself, if I had to guess. On the other hand, the law says you DO have to show ID to a cop if he asks for it.

I have to wonder what the building was? Whether it was a rent-a-cop drunk on power, or someone sticking his nose where it didn't belong (abortion clinic, medical research, private military force, etc). Do you have a link?
 
With big brother watching you on every street corner in the UK you would think that they already know who you are when you step out of your house! :)
 
Jovo said:
According to an article in Amateur Photographer on 9 Jan 2010, an Australian photographer landed in hot water when he refused to show his ID to a security guard at a building he had photographed from outside. The result was flashing lights and sirens from 3 police cars and a van!

I had better cancel my plan to visit the UK on a photographic tour...
Click to expand...
So was this person living under a rock? Where has he been in that last 7 years? With all the threats out there and the recent one on that US flight we happen to unfortunately be living in a different world and it will probably never be same as it once was.

This guy is an idiot and I hope he spends a few months in prison. He is in a foreign country, is asked for ID and refuses. Stupid. What did he expect? If I'm going to travel I'm glad people are checking.

--
The solution is always simple. Getting there is the hard part.
 
As he was in a public space he declined to show the security guard his ID.
 
As far as I know (having grown up in London and visited several times a years since moving to the US), there is no requirement to carry an ID in the UK, and many people don't have the only two valid photo IDs: a modern driver's licence (the old ones don't have a photo) or a passport. Has this changed? (I know that there has been talk of a national ID card but nothing exists at present.)

Note that you're pretty much required to carry a photo ID in the US (although I don't think there is a general law that states this) and you can easily get an ID even if you don't drive - a version of the driver's licence that isn't valid for driving.
--
Jeff Peterman

Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25
http://www.jeffp25.smugmug.com

 
While you don't HAVE to carry a photo ID, you do have to identify yourself if an officer asks you in about half the states--probably more by now. It's come up at least once and if I remember correctly more than that before the Supreme Court, and they've upheld that. IF an officer suspects there is something illegal going on (and if he doesn't, he can just say he did) and asks you for ID, you have to show it, and it's an arrestable offense not to.

http://flexyourrights.org/faq
 
Zee Char said:
Jovo said:
According to an article in Amateur Photographer on 9 Jan 2010, an Australian photographer landed in hot water when he refused to show his ID to a security guard at a building he had photographed from outside. The result was flashing lights and sirens from 3 police cars and a van!

I had better cancel my plan to visit the UK on a photographic tour...
Click to expand...
So was this person living under a rock? Where has he been in that last 7 years? With all the threats out there and the recent one on that US flight we happen to unfortunately be living in a different world and it will probably never be same as it once was.

This guy is an idiot and I hope he spends a few months in prison. He is in a foreign country, is asked for ID and refuses. Stupid. What did he expect? If I'm going to travel I'm glad people are checking.

--
The solution is always simple. Getting there is the hard part.
Click to expand...
--He has lived in London abt 25 years & was photographing a ancient Church. He was near but not shooting a bank building. He has every right to be p!ssed off.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/08/police-search-photographer-terrorism-powers
Here is his web site.
http://www.grant-smith.com/

Brian Schneider

 
The cop has to SAY he believed a law was being broken after the fact. Sadly, this isn't the same thing as him actually believing it. And while the ACLU might take your side (and rightfully so), it may not mean too much. In the Hiibel case, as I recall, it didn't turn out too well for him. It's always best to know your rights in any case.
 
Jeff Peterman said:
As far as I know (having grown up in London and visited several times a years since moving to the US), there is no requirement to carry an ID in the UK, and many people don't have the only two valid photo IDs: a modern driver's licence (the old ones don't have a photo) or a passport. Has this changed? (I know that there has been talk of a national ID card but nothing exists at present.)

Note that you're pretty much required to carry a photo ID in the US (although I don't think there is a general law that states this) and you can easily get an ID even if you don't drive - a version of the driver's licence that isn't valid for driving.
--
Jeff Peterman

Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25
http://www.jeffp25.smugmug.com

Click to expand...
As a traveller though would you enter a foreign country and then leave your ID in the hotel room? Not sure I would.

If I was asked to show my ID in a foreign country and I knew I technically did not have to I would do it anyway. Why generate suspicion. It only takes a second.

--
The solution is always simple. Getting there is the hard part.
 
Brian D. Schneider said:
Zee Char said:
Jovo said:
According to an article in Amateur Photographer on 9 Jan 2010, an Australian photographer landed in hot water when he refused to show his ID to a security guard at a building he had photographed from outside. The result was flashing lights and sirens from 3 police cars and a van!

I had better cancel my plan to visit the UK on a photographic tour...
Click to expand...
So was this person living under a rock? Where has he been in that last 7 years? With all the threats out there and the recent one on that US flight we happen to unfortunately be living in a different world and it will probably never be same as it once was.

This guy is an idiot and I hope he spends a few months in prison. He is in a foreign country, is asked for ID and refuses. Stupid. What did he expect? If I'm going to travel I'm glad people are checking.

--
The solution is always simple. Getting there is the hard part.
Click to expand...
--He has lived in London abt 25 years & was photographing a ancient Church. He was near but not shooting a bank building. He has every right to be p!ssed off.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/08/police-search-photographer-terrorism-powers
Here is his web site.
http://www.grant-smith.com/

Brian Schneider

Click to expand...
Oh. I thought it was an Australian Photographer in London. The op then said I better cancel my visit to the UK. Sorry.

--
The solution is always simple. Getting there is the hard part.
 
Oh sure, he's got a right to be ticked, but if he'd told the security guard he was a photographer and then gone about his business he'd have firmer ground to stand on.

The important paragraph is this one:

"In the past 18 months there have been 94 complaints to the Independent Police Complaints Commission about the misuse of section 44 powers. There is a growing outcry among working photographers who are finding their daily routines interrupted by police searches when working in high-profile areas that may be considered terrorist targets."

Subtext: "We're getting more than a complaint a week, but we've got people cowed with terrorism scares, so we're not going to do a thing about it." The people of the UK--or the people they voted for, which is the same thing--gave the police the power to do just this. And as long as they have it, expect them to use it.
 
As others have said, times are different, and in that sense, the terrorists have won. But what's the harm in showing your ID to a police officer? When I lived in London--admittedly a while ago now--the police were generally polite and helpful. And yes, it's a bit of an annoyance to have to show an ID for no good reason, but perhaps there is a good reason. People with evil intent have been known to photograph their targets in advance. Resisting an officer is an offense in the UK and the US, and it just seems not worth fussing about. Now, if you're told you can't take photos and there's no good reason, I'd fuss about that.

FF
 
Flying Fish said:
As others have said, times are different, and in that sense, the terrorists have won. But what's the harm in showing your ID to a police officer? When I lived in London--admittedly a while ago now--the police were generally polite and helpful. And yes, it's a bit of an annoyance to have to show an ID for no good reason, but perhaps there is a good reason. People with evil intent have been known to photograph their targets in advance. Resisting an officer is an offense in the UK and the US, and it just seems not worth fussing about. Now, if you're told you can't take photos and there's no good reason, I'd fuss about that.

FF
Click to expand...
When I was in London 3 years ago I remember being near what appeared to be government buildings. A few times someone would slowly approach us if I was taking pictures I got the hint and moved along. I was never asked but I would have no problem showing my ID. We caught the Remembrance Day activities and parade. We were close to that balcony were the royal family comes out. I remember all the security on top of buildings with binoculars. I really wanted to aim my telephoto lens up at them but decided not to. Did not want to see a rifle pointing back at me :) No police on the ground bothered us.

That is outside my country. I thought about this and if some rent a cop came over to me in my country I would also have problem showing them ID and explaining what I'm doing. There are a few people who take advantage of that power but I think most are just doing their job.

--
The solution is always simple. Getting there is the hard part.
 
I'm afraid I have little sympathy for this guy. He has ever right to not tell the security guard and later (unbeleivably) the police, but in doing so, he is being incredibly stupid. What did he expect, the police to turn around and say, "oh ok, you won't tell us your name and what you're doing, please carry on.."

I'd much rather the police did a proper, thorough job, as they did in this case. It is really not much of an inconvenience to have a 30 second conversation with a security guard.
 
You missed my point - this isn't about travellers but about photographers of any origin (even those who were born and reside in London). After all, without showing a valid ID, how can anyone prove that they are not from outside the UK?
--
Jeff Peterman

Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25
http://www.jeffp25.smugmug.com

 
Jeff Peterman said:
You missed my point - this isn't about travellers but about photographers of any origin (even those who were born and reside in London). After all, without showing a valid ID, how can anyone prove that they are not from outside the UK?
--
Jeff Peterman

Any insults, implied anger, bad grammar and bad spelling, are entirely unintentionalal. Sorry.
http://www.pbase.com/jeffp25
http://www.jeffp25.smugmug.com

Click to expand...
Yes I did. No one knows where you are from until you provide ID. When I first read this I thought he was visitor. You'd think a visitor would have more sense.

I know it upsets people to think they have to show ID but in this climate, overblown or not I don't see the harm in showing ID. Some people have stronger feelings about their rights.

It has been a few years since I have been in Toronto Airport but if you order a beer in a airport restaurant you need to show ID. We showed ours. A German group next table over refused so they had to drink Coke. We found it odd and joked with the server about it. It was over in a few minutes and we enjoyed our cold beers

--
The solution is always simple. Getting there is the hard part.
 
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