The development of 35mm dslr video in 2010

This is your opinion, I have seen no factual evidence to support this.
You'll need to increase your Google skills, then, I think. ; )

Yes, it's my opinion. But it's not just my opinion. There have been enough real tests by others already to support the same conclusion: the D3s resolves more at 720P than the 5DII at 1080i. Couple that with better color rendering above the base ISO range. And a larger usable ISO range. No, I'll stick with my opinion.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Consider the opposite - suppose you need deep DOF for an indoor sequence - what do you do ?
1 Shoot F8 with the 35mmm DSLR and tons of HMI
2 Shoot F2 with a 2/3 Pro camcorder and 1/16 of the light power.

The 2/3 camcorder wins.
Hey, you've got no real argument from me on that. That's why i said the 2/3 video cams aren't going away any time soon.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
One area I woukld like to see happen is making use of lossless digital zoom.

a 1080 HD frame is approx 2MP, so in theory a 12MP camera could offer a 6 fold zoom capability without interpolation.
This is a little tricky, but doable. I think that for quality purposes, you'd never want to go all the way to 6x though. And I think you'd really want to do this in steps rather than continuously.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
I don't doubt for one moment the future is hybrid...but to compete they need to be able to obtain 50/25fps..mp4 compression or similar...even faster processing which is not impossible seeing what they have achieved with computers and HDD in camera.

Storage should not be a problem either..my Sony 520 has 240Gb HD in something I can hold in the palm of my hand...it also works in 1 lux and has IR. Can't see why that couldn't be included...

But what they do need to do is redesign ergonomically (DSLR)..in it's present form it is in my view an awkward and cumbersome device ..but this is hardly a hurdle?

But surely the benefits of FF are also it's downfall..not because of quality but because of cost...the pro and semi pro camcorders have sensors 6mm or smaller..may be three of them (RGB) but to process the information off a FF sensor at 50fps would take some doing and we would need switchable formats...although some may like the 16 x 9 for landscape?

As ever though an interesting future and a coming together of two different art forms in one camera.

Just think, coming from the days of film you only needed to be a stills photographer, now we need to be a stills photographer and image processor and retouching artist..and soon we will have to be competent with the moving image...and ultimately 3d as well I would guess.

I am glad I am no longer just at the beginning of my career..!!!
 
2mp? ...the Sony 520 is quoting a native 6+mp on a 2/3 chip (6.3mm)..when you are talking 2mp are you refering to the triple sensor models with say 3 x 2mp chips for each colour channel?
 
This is your opinion, I have seen no factual evidence to support this.
You'll need to increase your Google skills, then, I think. ; )

Yes, it's my opinion. But it's not just my opinion. There have been enough real tests by others already to support the same conclusion: the D3s resolves more at 720P than the 5DII at 1080i. Couple that with better color rendering above the base ISO range. And a larger usable ISO range. No, I'll stick with my opinion.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
Thom, I think your punctuation skills have saved you from being extremely rude.

I do not need to Google issues of quality when I have had both cameras (D3s and 5D2) in my hands here to evaluate them for myself

The D3s is an excellent stills camera. As for video it is a botch.

I see mosquito noise all over the footage from the bandwidth starved DCT encoding which is only 17mbs (720x1280) compared to the relatively generous 25mbs given to standard DV footage (480x720). So what happens when you squeeze almost twice as much image into 3/4 the bandwidth of standard definition? You get a D3s.

Audio 11KHz , is this a joke??

As for color; try shooting some triangles in primary colors, you will see stairstepping like you have never seen before, the color sampling is very much less than 4:2:0

The D3s video has highly pumped up colors, you can do the same with the 5D2 using picture styles, the 5D2 has 40mbs bandwidth which gives a smoother look.

Both suffer from moire, the D3s slightly less colorful because of the AA filter.

The 5D2 when downsampled from 1080 to 720 (apples v apples) has the benefit of increased color sampling, so that if it was 4:2:0 it becomes 4:2:2. (ps it is not 4:2:0 to begin with but the example is illustrative)

let me know when the D3s gets on to movie sets, I for one will be counting the films from IMDB that use the D3s other than for its low light advantage.
 
Maybe CFast cards need to actually come out before we can go forward with true high res video in dSLRs?
 
This is your opinion, I have seen no factual evidence to support this.
You'll need to increase your Google skills, then, I think. ; )

Yes, it's my opinion. But it's not just my opinion. There have been enough real tests by others already to support the same conclusion: the D3s resolves more at 720P than the 5DII at 1080i. Couple that with better color rendering above the base ISO range. And a larger usable ISO range. No, I'll stick with my opinion.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
Thom, I think your punctuation skills have saved you from being extremely rude.

I do not need to Google issues of quality when I have had both cameras (D3s and 5D2) in my hands here to evaluate them for myself

The D3s is an excellent stills camera. As for video it is a botch.

I see mosquito noise all over the footage from the bandwidth starved DCT encoding which is only 17mbs (720x1280) compared to the relatively generous 25mbs given to standard DV footage (480x720). So what happens when you squeeze almost twice as much image into 3/4 the bandwidth of standard definition? You get a D3s.

Audio 11KHz , is this a joke??

As for color; try shooting some triangles in primary colors, you will see stairstepping like you have never seen before, the color sampling is very much less than 4:2:0

The D3s video has highly pumped up colors, you can do the same with the 5D2 using picture styles, the 5D2 has 40mbs bandwidth which gives a smoother look.

Both suffer from moire, the D3s slightly less colorful because of the AA filter.

The 5D2 when downsampled from 1080 to 720 (apples v apples) has the benefit of increased color sampling, so that if it was 4:2:0 it becomes 4:2:2. (ps it is not 4:2:0 to begin with but the example is illustrative)

let me know when the D3s gets on to movie sets, I for one will be counting the films from IMDB that use the D3s other than for its low light advantage.
I completely agree John. We tested the D3s before purchasing another 5DII for broadcast promo work. Suffice it to say we chose the 5DII. Besides the reasons mentioned above, for the majority of work Canon's 30fps offers more "apparent" resolution and less noise due to the higher frame frequency (although 24p is also coming to the 5DII soon). And being progressive, there is little loss of the cinematic quality. The increased bandwidth of the 5DII not only looks better, it holds up amazingly well to heavy post processes like compositing.

As to the other criticisms, any serious user also has serious post gear. Color rendering is not an issue for the Nikon or Canon video as the SOP of color grading makes any differences moot.

Saturday Night Live shot this season's open with the Canon on the streets of NYC at night. Hard to complain about the final IQ.

Sal
 
I see mosquito noise all over the footage
I don't see this. But I spent some time trying to find optimized Picture Control settings.
Audio 11KHz , is this a joke??
I personally wouldn't shoot with audio enabled in the DSLR. Even with a mic in the hotshoe there's too much risk of camera noise. But, yes, this is something Nikon needs to address.
As for color; try shooting some triangles in primary colors, you will see stairstepping like you have never seen before, the color sampling is very much less than 4:2:0
Indeed, I've commented on Nikon's stairstep issue. It's interesting in that it appears very angle dependent. It appears to be angle dependent and triggered by horizontal resizing issues.
let me know when the D3s gets on to movie sets, I for one will be counting the films from IMDB that use the D3s other than for its low light advantage.
D3 has already been there ;~). But for stop frame. I'm not sure any of these DSLRs are going to make it to Hollywood. Even 1080i isn't going to cut it. When they can do 2k or 4k video they might have a shot, but that requires they do video entirely differently than they're doing it today. The real question is whether the videographer doing serious DVD work, commercial work, broadcast work, is going to use them. To get the DOF isolation, yes. To shoot in really low light, yes. But those aren't nearly 100% of the things they need to do in their shoots.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
The main thing im waiting on is to see a DSLR that has some basic audio controls. Maybe Nikon could cease this opportunity. It doesnt seem like much to ask for a more robust audio port and a dial which sets the level. If anyone knows about something in the works I would be ever so happy to hear it.
 
The main thing im waiting on is to see a DSLR that has some basic audio controls. Maybe Nikon could cease this opportunity. It doesnt seem like much to ask for a more robust audio port and a dial which sets the level. If anyone knows about something in the works I would be ever so happy to hear it.
Serious video shooters are using the 5DII with third party firmware. I haven't been brave enough to try it in mine, but there have been no reports of any issues using the firmware. It's held in RAM and disappears once the camera is turned off.

Features:

On-screen audio meters
Manual gain control with no AGC
Zebra stripes (video peaking)
Custom Cropmarks for 16:9, 2.35:1, 4:3 and any other format
Control of focus and bracketing

So far mostly rave reviews. The firmware/camera combo provides the above features and 2 channels of 44.1kHz PCM audio.

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki

Cheers.

Sal
 
Even 1080i isn't going to cut it. When they can do 2k or 4k video they might have a shot, but that requires they do video entirely differently than they're doing it today. The real question is whether the videographer doing serious DVD work, commercial work, broadcast work, is going to use them. To get the DOF isolation, yes. To shoot in really low light, yes. But those aren't nearly 100% of the things they need to do in their shoots.
Is 2k really that much of a stretch? That's 2048x1080, i.e. take the 16:9 1080p and expand it a tad to 17:9. Only 6% more pixels.
 
The counter arguments in favour of DSLR's are
1/ possibility of ISO to 100,000
2/ possibility of f1.4 depth of field effect.
3/ no need for photographers to carry a separate video camera.

4/ a full pro video set up with very heavy duty tripod and video head, sound crew etc can achieve better quality - but only of very limited subject matter because of the setting up time.

--
Leonard Shepherd

Practicing and thinking can do more for good photography than buying or consuming.
Yes, and the first 3 points have come out of the blue and within a year of introduction, just imagine the next 3 years. The 4th point is critical also, I have seen so many low budget video productions that turn out absolutely stultifying and dreadful because they are so slow to the shot and so cumbersome and so "safe". Yet more than once I have seen beautiful work from the hands of one person alone with 5DM2, that's revolutionary and not to be taken lightly.
 
Is 2k really that much of a stretch? That's 2048x1080, i.e. take the 16:9 1080p and expand it a tad to 17:9. Only 6% more pixels.
A true 2k camera is going to generate JPEG2000 with 12 bits per pixel, a 2.6 gamma, and 24 bit audio at 48 or 96Khz. All of those things are a bit of a stretch for Nikon at the moment (as is 1080 for that matter ;~).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Is 2k really that much of a stretch? That's 2048x1080, i.e. take the 16:9 1080p and expand it a tad to 17:9. Only 6% more pixels.
A true 2k camera is going to generate JPEG2000 with 12 bits per pixel, a 2.6 gamma, and 24 bit audio at 48 or 96Khz. All of those things are a bit of a stretch for Nikon at the moment (as is 1080 for that matter ;~).
I'll give you the audio, but it still seems to me like the video isn't much more of a problem than 1080p (which nikon may very well see as a problem :P). JPEG2000 only adds a little bit of extra work since that's only the last step in the already 12+ bit pipeline. I'm not up on exactly how much more work it is than plain JPEG, but I imagine the fast fourier transform circuits can be expanded to 12 bits without much trouble. Maybe JPEG2000 can be handy for stills, too :)
 
I'll give you the audio, but it still seems to me like the video isn't much more of a problem than 1080p
Well, first of all, Nikon doesn't do 1080i, let alone 1080P ;~). The real issue is bandwidth. No doubt it can be solved easily enough and will be, but generally you don't want to get too far ahead of the bandwidth curve because then you up costs.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
I'll give you the audio, but it still seems to me like the video isn't much more of a problem than 1080p
Well, first of all, Nikon doesn't do 1080i, let alone 1080P ;~). The real issue is bandwidth. No doubt it can be solved easily enough and will be, but generally you don't want to get too far ahead of the bandwidth curve because then you up costs.
True. Is it really a bandwidth limit? It would be for the 720p-> 1080p jump, but 1080p-> 2k is only a 6% boost. I'm assuming the 1080p jump will happen anyway, or that Canon could do it. JPEG2k et. al. don't add bandwidth requirements, just switch steps in the existing pipeline.

I'm thinking hypothetically assuming there's a 1080p design in front of us, and I'm saying that Nikon could add a couple extra things and market it as "2k". For better or worse.
again, I'm ignoring audio.
 
Is it really a bandwidth limit?
Yes, I think so. Nikon is generating JPEGs on the fly (their file format is Motion-JPEG). That means that the EXPEED ASIC is involved. So you've got all these bits coming in from the sensor, going into memory, being pulled out of memory by the ASIC, being put back into memory by the ASIC, and, oh, we have to coordinate the audio. Not that it can't be done. But the solutions may need to be faster ASIC or dedicated AVCHD processor, either of which implies more bandwidth.
It would be for the 720p-> 1080p jump, but 1080p-> 2k is only a 6% boost.
I think you're forgetting the 12-bit versus 8-bit part. I believe 2k records 12-bit, which means its files are larger than the 8-bit being written in Motion-JPEG. All these little bandwidth grabs add up. Again, I'm not saying it can't be done, because obviously it is by Arriflex, RED, and others. But increasing internal bandwidth often means increasing parts costs. You prefer for that to scale naturally with Moore's law, not get ahead of the curve.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 

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