Canon EOS 1D IV High ISO night images and letter readability test

However, I'm not sure if it's just my screen, but it looks to me that there's some mazing visible in parts of the sky rather than discrete noise - starting from ISO 3200 and more evident @ ISO 6400 and above (viewing the photos at 100 %, of course) See i.e. in the upper left (a bit darker) part of the sky
Maybe I'm wrong, - but hopefully it's not the same green chanel imbalance as it was discussed with the 7D
I don't know what you mean by mazing but the term evokes some kind of pattern.

In my monitor they appear with patches/blobs (yellow one) but, still, with a perfect random appearance to them.

PK

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It seems that ISO 3200 is about as far as I'd push the camera, ISO 6400 is usable, but noise is still (for my tastes) a bit worrisome.
Individual tastes are, indeed, one of each kind.

What I find amazing in those ISO 6400 files is that, while the detail is all there, the noise seems to be of a very pleasant, "usable" nature.

I am actually pretty excited about this and will make a point of trying to confirm it with samples from different sources.

PK

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“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
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All kinds of detail robbing NR applied in this Nikon sanctioned D3s ISO 12800 image. > Void of any high resolution and replete with mushy details and banding...
And, still, it can deliver this...Not shabby....



PK

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“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
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To be honest, I haven't noticed any of this losing details to gain high ISO performance in the D3 or D3s files that I've seen to date. I can't speak for the D300, but it is well known that it's not in the same league as the D700 or D3, let alone the newer generation D3s.
--Perhaps you haven't been to Nikon's own website, so here you go...
All kinds of detail robbing NR applied in this Nikon sanctioned D3s ISO 12800 image. Void of any high resolution and replete with mushy details and banding...
Banding is well controlled and negligible. But if NR cannot be turned off it is bad. I would like to see a similar picture at 12800 with absolutely no NR.

To remove noise is not overly difficult; what is a challenge is to keep all the fine details. It is a big mistake to make a great song and dance about noise and noise reduction, but entirely forget about detail. However, some people only look at a picture as a whole and are oblivious of the fact that the details are what creates the whole. Therefore I encourage all to look for details and judge the quality from the details. - The content of the image is, naturally, a quite different theme.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
 
Thanks for the images !
From the night test, seems usable up to 800 iso (for me) :)
 
All kinds of detail robbing NR applied in this Nikon sanctioned D3s ISO 12800 image. > Void of any high resolution and replete with mushy details and banding...
And, still, it can deliver this...Not shabby....



PK

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“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
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http://www.pbase.com/photokhan
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--Agreed... It is not shabby, for an ISO 12800 image...

My point would be this; based on the excellent samples Mr. Oestmoen has provided us (i.e. Keyboard @ ISO 12800 w/tungsten lighting), if you were to have also used a 1D MKIV to take the bear shot, you could expect similar results. Especially after you normalized the 16mp down to 12mp and accounted for the extra reach of the 1.3 crop sensor, as well as applied enough NR to obtain the same amount of "mushyness" as the D3s image shows.

My impression is (all things being equal) the 1D MKIV is a match for the D3s at higher ISOs and it provides more resolution for low ISO (detail oriented) photography...

When you consider the 1D MKIV's high resolution, high fps, 1.3 crop reach, high ISO capability, and excellent video features, this camera seems to be a Jack-of-all-trades (much like the 7D is for semi-pro cameras)...

My 5D MKII is getting nervous that it might get traded it in... :)

Regards,

Russ



Greater is He that is within me, than he who is in this world...
 
--Agreed... It is not shabby, for an ISO 12800 image...

My point would be this; based on the excellent samples Mr. Oestmoen has provided us (i.e. Keyboard @ ISO 12800 w/tungsten lighting), if you were to have also used a 1D MKIV to take the bear shot, you could expect similar results. Especially after you normalized the 16mp down to 12mp and accounted for the extra reach of the 1.3 crop sensor, as well as applied enough NR to obtain the same amount of "mushyness" as the D3s image shows.

My impression is (all things being equal) the 1D MKIV is a match for the D3s at higher ISOs and it provides more resolution for low ISO (detail oriented) photography...

When you consider the 1D MKIV's high resolution, high fps, 1.3 crop reach, high ISO capability, and excellent video features, this camera seems to be a Jack-of-all-trades (much like the 7D is for semi-pro cameras)...
+1. Except that I expect the 1D Mark IV will exceed the D3s' IQ in shots like that bear shot for all the reasons you stated.

It's good that people are now drawing attention not only to the background grain in the high ISO shots, but the actual IQ, which is largely manifested in the detail that is often mushed-out by in-camera NR. IQ should not be sacrificed at the alter of in-camera NR. High ISO low-noise comparisons should be based on the image captured prior to the application of NR in-camera or out. I'm not even sure you can completely disable the in-camera NR on the D3s.
--
Tacksharp
 
--Agreed... It is not shabby, for an ISO 12800 image...
"Not shabby?" Show me a better ISO 12,800 image in those conditions.

You remember what ISO 1600 film looked like? Then pushed to 3200 or 6400? Grainy as hell.

To my eye the D3s has the least chroma noise of any camera at high ISO. If the mkIV is slightly better than the 5Dmk2 and the AF performs as promised then it will be a success. Only the fanboys seem to be expecting it to match or beat the D3s at high ISO.
 
To my eye the D3s has the least chroma noise of any camera at high ISO. If the mkIV is slightly better than the 5Dmk2 and the AF performs as promised then it will be a success. Only the fanboys seem to be expecting it to match or beat the D3s at high ISO.
I have no ideas about how the 1D IV performs as compared to cameras I have never tried.

However, I think that the ISO performance of a camera is best judged not by the amount of croma noise, but by the amount of preserved detail.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
 
However, I think that the ISO performance of a camera is best judged not by the amount of croma noise, but by the amount of preserved detail.
Agreed.

Low noise while preserving detail is the Holy Grail in this game.

Another important vector is how " visually pleasant " the overall noise is but this, of course, is hardly open for debate as it is a matter where personal taste has an huge influence.

What impresses me in your 6400 samples is that the detail is all there and the type of noise is quite pleasant.

PK

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“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
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http://www.pbase.com/photokhan
(PBase Supporter)
 
I have no ideas about how the 1D IV performs as compared to cameras I have never tried.

However, I think that the ISO performance of a camera is best judged not by the amount of croma noise, but by the amount of preserved detail.
Both are important. More detail at the expense of chroma noise still looks ugly. Less chroma noise with a lack of detail is not a good trade-off either.

To my eye the D3s at high ISO looks more like fast film than anything else available. I'm sure most would agree it's the benchmark right now.

I have no doubt that if Canon had developed a 12mp FF sensor for the mkIV that it would match the D3s. Instead they have a different strategy (more pixels, smaller sensor), but if they get close it's still a success. I'm only at odds with the fanboys expecting it to be as good or better than the D3s at high ISO.
 
I have no ideas about how the 1D IV performs as compared to cameras I have never tried.

However, I think that the ISO performance of a camera is best judged not by the amount of croma noise, but by the amount of preserved detail.
Both are important. More detail at the expense of chroma noise still looks ugly. Less chroma noise with a lack of detail is not a good trade-off either.
If you cannot have both, a choice has to be made. Then it depends on the subject what is more important. I would say that in news/sports photography one can more often get away with less detail. But in photos of landscapes, birds and aminals details are much more important. I can live with some color blotches, but if an imange is smooth and also lacking in detail it does not look good no matter how "noise free" it might be.
To my eye the D3s at high ISO looks more like fast film than anything else available. I'm sure most would agree it's the benchmark right now.
I have not seen D3s files in a direct comparison to others, and I do not know to what extent it is possible to turn off noise reduction in the Nikon. If noise reduction can be turned off at high ISO the results will be good.
I have no doubt that if Canon had developed a 12mp FF sensor for the mkIV that it would match the D3s. Instead they have a different strategy (more pixels, smaller sensor), but if they get close it's still a success. I'm only at odds with the fanboys expecting it to be as good or better than the D3s at high ISO.
In order to settle this matter, provided that one thinks it important, one will have to use both cameras and take the same photos of detailed landscapes, birds' feathers or animals' fur, print large pictures from the respective files and then examine the detail.

Personally I assume that one cannot reasonably expect one camera to be incomparably superior to another when we are at the level of D3s and 1D IV. I do however think that it is important that the photographer is given the choice of whether he/she wants noise reduction or not. Then the photographer can determine what is more important: Smooth images or maximum detail. This is not only a matter of personal taste, what is "right" depends very much on the subject. Therefore the photographer ought to be given the choice. I find that the Canon cameras are good in this respect, with the 1D II, 1D III and 1D IV noise reduction can be turned on or off.

The question of what is best when it comes to pixels is never easy. Large pixels are always better, but more pixels are also always better as long as quality is maintained. There is a balance to be kept here, but I think it is important to avoid using absence of noise as the main criterion of "good" image quality at high ISO. Detail is at least as important in many cases. It is not difficult to remove noise, the challenge is to preserve detail.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
 
I have no doubt that if Canon had developed a 12mp FF sensor for the mkIV that it would match the D3s.
If there were a way to turn off the in-cam NR in the D3s, you may find it matches now.
I'm only at odds with the fanboys expecting it to be as good or better than the D3s at high ISO.
Of course, if you have one sensor that has 64% more light hitting it per unit time, you expect that sensor to perform better at high ISO. The confidence exhibited by some so-called Canon "fanboys" is based on Canon's apparent superior sensor technology, which allows efficiencies to somewhat close the gap. By how much, we don't really know yet, as the D3s advantage may be more due to in-cam NR than FF large pixels. And that in-cam NR, while great at removing chroma noise, may be actually producing a less detailed image than if the user were to judiciously apply NR themselves.

I'm sure Canon could have produced a 16mp FF that still pushes 10 fps that, with the efficiency advantages of the 1D Mark IV, would give it superior ISO performance to the D3s (in-cam NR or not). There are those loud few who would have preferred that. But, at the same field of view with the same lenses, that would crop the shot back down to the same 10mp as the 1D Mark III, so it wouldn't be an improvement in the detail of many cropped shots.

I suspect Nikon retained the relatively low 12mp in the D3s, because they don't have the processing power to push more than that at 9 fps (not without an expensive processor upgrade at this time). Canon's 1D Mark IV is pushing 160 mp/s vs. 108 mp/s for the D3s.

I'm sure Nikon's D4 will have improved processing power that will allow more pixels to be pushed, and it will have more pixels to the dismay (or total indifference?) of the low-rez Nikon fanboys. As Nikon adopts what Canon has been criticized for, the criticism falls away (i.e., CMOS, FF, High ISO performance, 14-bit, etc.).

--
Tacksharp
 
Good points Tack, it's obvious Canon still has advantages overall due to their investment in CMOS technology a few years back and their strong video background.

Nikon fans, at this point, are still clinging to that tiny bit of high ISO advantage they think they still appear to have. That may crumble as well once the camera is fully out there.

I could care less, I'll give them a stop and still be thrilled with what now looks like a clear winner in the 1D4. Now if they would just start shipping here in the US of A!
 
Do you guys see this as some kind of game, meaning there has to be a winner?

Let's be glad with the competition that pushes Nikon and Canon to the limits, instead of this very strange competition way of thinking. It's photography, not baseball!

Jeroen
 

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