The unmatched advantages of Film

have a big archive of kodachrome/fujichrome slides myself from my pre-digital days. can see what you mean. for sure we don't need any more megapixels on dslr's, the focus now should be on developing imaging sensors which can match the dynamic range of film, having done it with resolution.
Digital SLR cameras have had more dynamic range than film for about 2 generations now. Pretty soon this will even trickle down to the lowest level of consumer entry models.

Keep in mind that claims for 11 stops of dynamic range for a slide film are hilarious, and claims that DSLR's are limited to 8 stops is pretty good for laughs too. Stick with reality...
 
have a big archive of kodachrome/fujichrome slides myself from my pre-digital days. can see what you mean. for sure we don't need any more megapixels on dslr's, the focus now should be on developing imaging sensors which can match the dynamic range of film, having done it with resolution.
Digital SLR cameras have had more dynamic range than film for about 2 generations now. Pretty soon this will even trickle down to the lowest level of consumer entry models.

Keep in mind that claims for 11 stops of dynamic range for a slide film are hilarious, and claims that DSLR's are limited to 8 stops is pretty good for laughs too. Stick with reality...
But 12+ stops from professional color neg film and 14+ stops from B&W film are reality. So yes, current DSLR technology needs to be improved somewhat. It's getting there.
 
have a big archive of kodachrome/fujichrome slides myself from my pre-digital days. can see what you mean. for sure we don't need any more megapixels on dslr's, the focus now should be on developing imaging sensors which can match the dynamic range of film, having done it with resolution.
Digital SLR cameras have had more dynamic range than film for about 2 generations now. Pretty soon this will even trickle down to the lowest level of consumer entry models.

Keep in mind that claims for 11 stops of dynamic range for a slide film are hilarious, and claims that DSLR's are limited to 8 stops is pretty good for laughs too. Stick with reality...
But 12+ stops from professional color neg film and 14+ stops from B&W film are reality. So yes, current DSLR technology needs to be improved somewhat. It's getting there.
Not from the typical films used for a 35mm SLR.
 
have a big archive of kodachrome/fujichrome slides myself from my pre-digital days. can see what you mean. for sure we don't need any more megapixels on dslr's, the focus now should be on developing imaging sensors which can match the dynamic range of film, having done it with resolution.
Digital SLR cameras have had more dynamic range than film for about 2 generations now. Pretty soon this will even trickle down to the lowest level of consumer entry models.

Keep in mind that claims for 11 stops of dynamic range for a slide film are hilarious, and claims that DSLR's are limited to 8 stops is pretty good for laughs too. Stick with reality...
But 12+ stops from professional color neg film and 14+ stops from B&W film are reality. So yes, current DSLR technology needs to be improved somewhat. It's getting there.
Not from the typical films used for a 35mm SLR.
Huh? Color neg films like Portra 400, Portra 160, Fuji 400H and Fuji 160S aren't typical? B&W films like Tri-X, HP5, FP4, Plus-X, Neopan 400, aren't typical? You haven't used 35mm much have you?
 
You have a point there.
 
Well, it's like saying you wish for a tiny Hummer
 
have a big archive of kodachrome/fujichrome slides myself from my pre-digital days. can see what you mean. for sure we don't need any more megapixels on dslr's, the focus now should be on developing imaging sensors which can match the dynamic range of film, having done it with resolution.
Digital SLR cameras have had more dynamic range than film for about 2 generations now. Pretty soon this will even trickle down to the lowest level of consumer entry models.

Keep in mind that claims for 11 stops of dynamic range for a slide film are hilarious, and claims that DSLR's are limited to 8 stops is pretty good for laughs too. Stick with reality...
But 12+ stops from professional color neg film and 14+ stops from B&W film are reality. So yes, current DSLR technology needs to be improved somewhat. It's getting there.
Not from the typical films used for a 35mm SLR.
Huh? Color neg films like Portra 400, Portra 160, Fuji 400H and Fuji 160S aren't typical? B&W films like Tri-X, HP5, FP4, Plus-X, Neopan 400, aren't typical? You haven't used 35mm much have you?
Lol

I use both, I like both..

But I agree with the OP, that the DR of digital could be a lot better.

You have to really go some to blow out on neg film..I like that myself.

Some folks will comment without having given film a good run, and you really need to to see the advantages it offers, it has some disadvantages too.
 
Have a look at this paper -

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2/

My interpretation: The tested films do not have the dynamic range of a 1dsII. However, the knee of the response curve for film, while it becomes increasingly stochastic, maintains some correlation with the signal for a few stops, giving the appearance of greater dynamic range in graceful degradation.

Simpler: At low light levels, film breaks down considerable sooner than digital, however it does so gracefully enough to maintain the impression of greater dynamic range. At high levels, the two are about equal.
 
Have a look at this paper -

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2/

My interpretation: The tested films do not have the dynamic range of a 1dsII. However, the knee of the response curve for film, while it becomes increasingly stochastic, maintains some correlation with the signal for a few stops, giving the appearance of greater dynamic range in graceful degradation.

Simpler: At low light levels, film breaks down considerable sooner than digital, however it does so gracefully enough to maintain the impression of greater dynamic range. At high levels, the two are about equal.
Another link to the ridiculous Clark site. Using a high contrast film like Kodak 200. This has been laughed about for years. No offense, but are you going to post a link to the LL site showing the D30 outresolves 35mm Provia on an Imacon 343 next?
 
One aspect is anticipation. I had to send off my film to the developers, not being able to process it myself. So, with digital, where is the anticipation of getting an envelope in the mail and excitingly opening it to see just what you have? With digital, you cannot blame your spouse, parent, child for taking that awful shot that you just discovered when opening the envelope, for with the digital, you can just erase the image before anyone else can see it. (you know, 'look over there' while I push this erase button :D ) In this light, digital takes a lot of the mystery out of photography.
--
Greg

When I was a babe, I would talk as a babe, think as a babe. Now I am an old man and realize that as a babe, at least I had an excuse.
 
Actually, I don't see where you and he differ that much on this point. I think you'd have to agree that there is a degradation in film response at lower exposures.

In support of your claim, the importance of film response at lower exposures may have to do with the scale at which you examine it. An 8x10 negative contact printed might just give you reasonably close to 10.5 stops for all appearances. A lower-contrast transfer function might give you even a bit more. A 35mm negative might not yield good appearances in the shadows because of the diminished sample size.
 
Actually, I don't see where you and he differ that much on this point. I think you'd have to agree that there is a degradation in film response at lower exposures.

In support of your claim, the importance of film response at lower exposures may have to do with the scale at which you examine it. An 8x10 negative contact printed might just give you reasonably close to 10.5 stops for all appearances. A lower-contrast transfer function might give you even a bit more. A 35mm negative might not yield good appearances in the shadows because of the diminished sample size.
Very true. My point was that Clark's selection of Kodak 200 for a DR test was biased from the start. Selecting Velvia for example would skew things even more. Using a standard low contrast film....the films that portrait and wedding photographers use for example, maintains DR far better.

For me, when I'm using a film like Fuji Pro400H, I'm exposing it at 200, 160 and even 100 an 80. The shadows shine....and even 2 to 3 stops over, the highlights aren't blown. In fact, with pro neg films like that, I never worry about blown highlights. They appear very natural.
 
For me, when I'm using a film like Fuji Pro400H, I'm exposing it at 200, 160 and even 100 an 80. The shadows shine....and even 2 to 3 stops over, the highlights aren't blown. In fact, with pro neg films like that, I never worry about blown highlights. They appear very natural.
And you probably do have better dynamic range than a Nikon D3s can get at ISO 10000... but not better than it gets at ISO 6400.
 
Actually, I don't see where you and he differ that much on this point. I think you'd have to agree that there is a degradation in film response at lower exposures.

In support of your claim, the importance of film response at lower exposures may have to do with the scale at which you examine it. An 8x10 negative contact printed might just give you reasonably close to 10.5 stops for all appearances. A lower-contrast transfer function might give you even a bit more. A 35mm negative might not yield good appearances in the shadows because of the diminished sample size.
Very true. My point was that Clark's selection of Kodak 200 for a DR test was biased from the start. Selecting Velvia for example would skew things even more. Using a standard low contrast film....the films that portrait and wedding photographers use for example, maintains DR far better.

For me, when I'm using a film like Fuji Pro400H, I'm exposing it at 200, 160 and even 100 an 80. The shadows shine....and even 2 to 3 stops over, the highlights aren't blown. In fact, with pro neg films like that, I never worry about blown highlights. They appear very natural.
Thanks that saved me the time!

Please folks, if you are going to put some kind of argument up about DR, pick something a bit more credible than Clarkvision..sure he has nice charts..but anyone with even some basic hands on experience of film and digltal will simply know that film has buckets of DR in the highlight region..with neg film you simply expose for the shadows, and the highlights do take care of themselves, in all but the most extreme situations.

Neg film = much less common with blowouts..

What next, someone will quote that Canadian site and tell use 3mp is as good if not better than the best 35mm film..

Sigh..I don't mind an armchair debate..but seriously, ebay a film camera and do some film, it's very clear what is going on.
 
For me, when I'm using a film like Fuji Pro400H, I'm exposing it at 200, 160 and even 100 an 80. The shadows shine....and even 2 to 3 stops over, the highlights aren't blown. In fact, with pro neg films like that, I never worry about blown highlights. They appear very natural.
And you probably do have better dynamic range than a Nikon D3s can get at ISO 10000... but not better than it gets at ISO 6400.
I don't shoot portraits and weddings all at 6400 or 10,000. Fro those high iso shots, I use digital gear. For 100, 200, and 400 iso (the topic of the discussion) the D3 will not offer higher DR.

A lot of people don't realize how much DR their is in some films.

By the way...the D3 has about 8 useable stops at 6400iso....a figure beaten by virtually every color negative and B&W negative film in production.
 
Have a look at this paper -

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2/

My interpretation: The tested films do not have the dynamic range of a 1dsII. However, the knee of the response curve for film, while it becomes increasingly stochastic, maintains some correlation with the signal for a few stops, giving the appearance of greater dynamic range in graceful degradation.
Or could it be that the lower regions spread are simply from the non linearity of the DAC of his Polaroid sprintscan?

You know, get some film scan it,plot the transfer fuction and the use the results of the scan to do your plots without factoring in the effects of the errors in electronic conversion and the inherent noise.
You can then say in conclusion:

"The Kodak gold average signal keeps decreasing toward lower signal, but the signal becomes lost in excessive noise. This shows that the Canon 1D Mark II has a much higher dynamic range than either Fujichrome Velvia slide film and Kodak Gold 200 print film."

Eh no, what it means is the noise that limits the films dynamic range comes from his scanner and its non linearity of the DAC-not a clever conclusion, just poor methodology IMHO
Why didn't he ask Kodak to provide him with the spread function for gold?
 
Have a look at this paper -

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2/

My interpretation: The tested films do not have the dynamic range of a 1dsII. However, the knee of the response curve for film, while it becomes increasingly stochastic, maintains some correlation with the signal for a few stops, giving the appearance of greater dynamic range in graceful degradation.
Or could it be that the lower regions spread are simply from the non linearity of the DAC of his Polaroid sprintscan?

You know, get some film scan it,plot the transfer fuction and the use the results of the scan to do your plots without factoring in the effects of the errors in electronic conversion and the inherent noise.
You can then say in conclusion:

"The Kodak gold average signal keeps decreasing toward lower signal, but the signal becomes lost in excessive noise. This shows that the Canon 1D Mark II has a much higher dynamic range than either Fujichrome Velvia slide film and Kodak Gold 200 print film."

Eh no, what it means is the noise that limits the films dynamic range comes from his scanner and its non linearity of the DAC-not a clever conclusion, just poor methodology IMHO
Why didn't he ask Kodak to provide him with the spread function for gold?
Because Kodak probably would have scolded him for picking that film in the first place. Line up Portra 160 or Fuji 160....and then do the DR test. Clark would have had an entirely different article then....and it would never be quoted here!
 
Because Kodak probably would have scolded him for picking that film in the first place. Line up Portra 160 or Fuji 160....and then do the DR test. Clark would have had an entirely different article then....and it would never be quoted here!
Exactly Kodak do huge amounts of testing on their films, the new Vision line have a tech which pulls a easy 13 stop range, they publish it on their site.

Clark wanted to do a test to prove something, his modus is suspect, pick a high contrast film stock (Velvia and Gold) pitch it against a 1Ds.

Run the 1ds through shadow highlight tools in PS scan the film whoopie we have a win for digital...

I'd love to do a spoof where I match the DR of HP5 stand dev in Rodinal against a Nokia phone...
 
Coming from shooting film for decades, I am eyewitness to the demise of Kodakchrome and I am with Scott. No, Digital do not kill Kodakchrome, but its probably the last straw on the camel's back.

And in retrospect its not just Fujifilm, Kodak had to take that blame too when they introduce E6 slide film. Fujifilm's amazing Fujichrome simply shown the road of progress in that sect.

--
  • Franka -
 
Because Kodak probably would have scolded him for picking that film in the first place. Line up Portra 160 or Fuji 160....and then do the DR test. Clark would have had an entirely different article then....and it would never be quoted here!
Exactly Kodak do huge amounts of testing on their films, the new Vision line have a tech which pulls a easy 13 stop range, they publish it on their site.

Clark wanted to do a test to prove something, his modus is suspect, pick a high contrast film stock (Velvia and Gold) pitch it against a 1Ds.

Run the 1ds through shadow highlight tools in PS scan the film whoopie we have a win for digital...
You may be partly right that Roger Clark had an agenda to prove that digital exposures are better than film but his error wasn't in his film choice but rather his technique in exposing, developing, and scanning the Gold 200 film that revealed such a narrow Dynamic Range (DR). Jay Turberville, Ed Leys, and myself (all of these forums) started a project to debunk this, various films including Gold 200 and the better films you mention were purchased, the films were exposed to a transparency film Stouffer step wedge with various under and overexposures to reveal the full shape of the two "knees" of the response curves, and the films were scanned by a Minolta 5300 film scanner by Ed Leys, who has a lot of experience in its use. We never completed the project to a state ready for publication, but it became obvious that some sort of procedural errors had been made by Roger Clark.

Our results showed that most colour negative films (we didn't test black and white) have roughly the same maximum DR as limited by their density range, with some slight variations as to abruptness of the "knees". The main difference between the lower quality films and the professional grade film as to establishing a usable rating was just grain size, so typically a higher grade film then looks better printed larger but the amplitude of variations as determined by the grain variations stays the same . This means that you will always find grain in film if you have the resolution to see it, as the grain variations are much larger than the limits of the DR. This is in contrast to digital images where the noise grain is less than our detection limit and blowing up the images beyond a certain point just reveals their detail limit.

Direct comparisons of film to digital aren't really possible for two reasons, in that digital DR is primarily limited by the "noise floor" at the dark shadow end where as there will be also be a "noise ceiling" for film as one attempts to use the "knee" at the other end of the response curve, and that the "grain" noise of digital has a fixed size in its native state that is set by the sensor resolution. However, for medium size prints of say about 8 by 12 inches for consumer films or for larger 12 by 18 prints and up from professional film as compared against modern digital equivalents as to consumer and profession DSLR's the output will be very similar with advantages for each. Colour negative film has the advantage of slightly wider usable DR but the disadvantage is that to these print sizes it will always reveal more "grain" noise, even in the center of the response curve but especially as you try to push the use of the "knees".

In summary, my point is that, first, you chose a grade of film more depending on the size of the print you need to make but that it didn't really affect DR much and, second, that film use always shows more grain than modern digital at comparable viewing sizes even though colour negative still enjoys a slight advantage of wider DR over even the best digital DSLR's.

Regards, GordonBGood
 

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