1 year later still only 1 high MP and 1 high price

If you've been dissatisfied with 24" prints from current Nikon products, then why aren't you shooting medium format? 35mm film isn't any better than the current 12MP sensors from Nikon, so it's not like you're any worse off than if we didn't have digital.
Just in case you missed it, Anthony bought a Sony A850 to dabble with a 24mp camera rather than wait for Nikon.
It remains to be seen if Nikon will bring out the product I would have wanted.
However, I'm with you: you shouldn't be dissatisfied with a 24" print from the 12mp cameras. It's well within the capability. You'd be feeding an Epson 175 dpi without resizing anything, and I think you should be able to resize 2x, so we're potentially feeding the Epson just about every last pixel it wants (360 dpi).
Yes, but I think your question was > 24". This guy just got printed the other day at 20x30:



From the D300 and 70-200/2.8 VR with the TC14eII. In spite of cropping a smidgen from it, it still looks pretty impressive to me.

OTOH, I am seeing improvements over my D300 from the A850 for some subjects; more noticeable in the bigger prints, but detectable (to me) in the smaller ones too.
--
Anthony Beach
 
Some examples might be useful to your argument. And by the way, did you send in your 12mp NEF for examination and tell us how many > 24" prints you've made and will make yet? ;~)
Ex post facto since the thread was started before your dictate. Maybe the best way to enforce this is to not respond.
Oh, I'm sure that once this thread fills up he'll start another if we let him...
The only way to stop these threads is to not respond to them.

On a related topic, do you think Nikon will do another sensor with Sony?
--
Anthony Beach
 
Honestly, medium format does not suit the subject you posted, so with film you would have had no other choice but to use 35mm, and as digital 35mm has surpassed film, you're really at an advantage.

btw, what's with the funky white balance? i asssume that's not a studio image...
If you've been dissatisfied with 24" prints from current Nikon products, then why aren't you shooting medium format? 35mm film isn't any better than the current 12MP sensors from Nikon, so it's not like you're any worse off than if we didn't have digital.
Just in case you missed it, Anthony bought a Sony A850 to dabble with a 24mp camera rather than wait for Nikon.
It remains to be seen if Nikon will bring out the product I would have wanted.
However, I'm with you: you shouldn't be dissatisfied with a 24" print from the 12mp cameras. It's well within the capability. You'd be feeding an Epson 175 dpi without resizing anything, and I think you should be able to resize 2x, so we're potentially feeding the Epson just about every last pixel it wants (360 dpi).
Yes, but I think your question was > 24". This guy just got printed the other day at 20x30:



From the D300 and 70-200/2.8 VR with the TC14eII. In spite of cropping a smidgen from it, it still looks pretty impressive to me.

OTOH, I am seeing improvements over my D300 from the A850 for some subjects; more noticeable in the bigger prints, but detectable (to me) in the smaller ones too.
--
Anthony Beach
 
Ask people like Vincent Laforet and Robert Caplin why they prefer the 5DM2 over the D3X.
Vincent was a Canon shooter to start with. And it's clear from reading his blog that he was lusting after doing some video long before we had any DSLRs that could do so. So it seems pretty natural he'd pick up on the 5DII in a hurry. Robert, too, is a long-time Canon shooter. So, I guess that both would tend to prefer a Canon solution to a Nikon solution, with or without video.
Now you know why I hate it when people here say to me, and they say it all the time, "go buy a Canon 5DM2 then."
Thanks for the response but you misunderstand where I'm coming from.
No, I think I understand it perfectly. Nikon isn't producing what you crave. So you'll just pound on them until they do. I sure hope that this isn't the way you conduct your personal relationships, too.
There you go getting personal again, you know it should be about the post, not the poster.
I think there is no logical reason for them to have not done it other than a business bottom line decision that is probably ill founded and I explained why.
I see. So Sony, Olympus, Pentax, and a host of other companies all have the same ill-founded decision, too? But basically you wanted Nikon to drop everything else and just produce the camera you want. That's what it boils down to. Never mind that their low-end cameras, which is where they make most of their money, need a bit of work. Never mind that m4/3 has exposed a weakness. Never mind that other cameras were due for updates. Just produce the one you want and they'll be making the "right" business decision.
Yes, that's correct, see you do understand me after all.
I noticed through all your response you offered no reason why they don't yet have one,
Simple reason: they haven't gotten to that on their product development schedule.
That's lame, if it's true (now I'm acting like my clients).
If you'd be willing to look at a little history, the D700 was a year after the D3. A D700x would likely be a year or more after a D3x.

So, I've never expected a D700x before about now, and it doesn't surprise me much that we didn't get it.
That's maybe where we disagree then, because I don't think it's coming now or in Q1 2010.
What I mean by (misguided) "greed" is that I suspect they don't offer it because it's not in their financial interest in their mind.
It might not be in their financial interest (though I don't think this is the reason why we don't have a D700x yet). Nikon has a lot of territory to try to defend now.
That's lame too, if it's true, (you see, when I'm the customer with the money and the demand, I act just like my clients).
So, it's possible that Nikon is looking at numbers and making a decision different than you'd want them to. Again, I don't think that's likely. I think Nikon pretty much has to do both a D700s and something with more pixels (D700x-type). But are they here today? No. Will they be here in Q1? One of them may. When will they both be here? I think by early 2011.
One higher MP "maybe" in Q1, that's a tepid prediction. Another in a year? Now you sound like me.
 
Honestly, medium format does not suit the subject you posted
Yes, I'm aware of that, and I said I was impressed with how it turned out.
so with film you would have had no other choice but to use 35mm, and as digital 35mm has surpassed film, you're really at an advantage.
I still have my Nikon gear; but I might consider using the Sony when I have the appropriate lens. I don't think it's expecting too much to have digital move about a format above film (e.g., 4x5 film is already comparable to MFDB).
btw, what's with the funky white balance?
I don't know, but thanks for pointing it out. I downloaded my own image and opened it in Photoshop, and the colors changed some, then converted it back to sRGB (the workspace in Photoshop is set to Adobe RGB) and compared it to the version I downloaded, and they are different. The prints seem alright and no one is commenting on the colors of those -- my son is something of a whiz when it comes to evaluating colors, and he says it looks like a flamingo should look.
i assume that's not a studio image...
Taken at the San Francisco Zoo.
--
Anthony Beach
 
Don't worry I am sure Nikon will introduce a 'reliable' medium format sensor this coming year and it will perform brilliantly...hopefully somewhat similar to the D3s at similar ISO's.

Until then enjoy
Honestly, medium format does not suit the subject you posted
Yes, I'm aware of that, and I said I was impressed with how it turned out.
so with film you would have had no other choice but to use 35mm, and as digital 35mm has surpassed film, you're really at an advantage.
I still have my Nikon gear; but I might consider using the Sony when I have the appropriate lens. I don't think it's expecting too much to have digital move about a format above film (e.g., 4x5 film is already comparable to MFDB).
btw, what's with the funky white balance?
I don't know, but thanks for pointing it out. I downloaded my own image and opened it in Photoshop, and the colors changed some, then converted it back to sRGB (the workspace in Photoshop is set to Adobe RGB) and compared it to the version I downloaded, and they are different. The prints seem alright and no one is commenting on the colors of those -- my son is something of a whiz when it comes to evaluating colors, and he says it looks like a flamingo should look.
i assume that's not a studio image...
Taken at the San Francisco Zoo.
--
Anthony Beach
 
I assumed Ilkka was talking about high iso, when he said about D3s being 2 stops ahead.

What you're saying is theoretical. Maybe it can be made. But it isnt. While today, in real life, the D3s looks to me head and shoulders above any other Nikon or Canon camera at high iso.
I'm not sure that is the most useful way of looking at it. The D3s is ahead of other FF cameras (including the D3), and happens to be 12MP. We don't know whether the same technology applied to a 24MP sensor will yield similar results, so the inferred conclusion that 12MP FX generically is ahead of 24MP FX is not really substantiated.
 
Why would they lower the price when they are selling everyone they produce. At least 6 stores I deal with are still trying to get them for their customers but there aren't any to be had.. Best camera I owned to date. Picked up a D3s today that was among 3 that were preordered and turned down by people (economy or not what they were expecting).. I bought one today and it seems to be an improvement over the original with some decent new features.. However I did waste $2400 on a new 70-200 version II. What a disappointment out of the box.. Compared it against the original version and you really have to try hard to tell the two apart.. Light fall off and edge problems are still there.. The Sigma is a better lens and a lot cheaper. The D3s is marginally worth the money, but the new lens is a rip off at $2400....
 
Don't worry
Perhaps you have me confused with the OP; I'm neither worried nor bitter, I'm actually happy.
I am sure Nikon will introduce a 'reliable' medium format sensor this coming year
Perhaps you have my Sony confused with a Canon -- although I'm not sure what your issues with Canon really are. My A850 has a solid sensor in it, a definite step up from my D300 in pixel quality and (obviously) in pixel quantity. The AF system is surprisingly good, clearly better than my D200 and maybe even better than my D300 for acquisition [for tracking I expect the CAM3500 is superior]. At just under 3000 actuations on the A850, it is still too early for me to say anything definitive about its reliability -- but dust on the sensor is definitely an issue (in spite of the dust removal system).
and it will perform brilliantly...hopefully somewhat similar to the D3s at similar ISO's.
Brilliant performance, most likely; comparable ISO performance to the D3s, most likely not.

High ISO performance is my lowest priority. Not to be rude or anything, but I would probably not pay $1000 at this time for a D700 and would probably not trade my D300 for it.
Until then enjoy
Thanks.

I don't see myself rushing back to Nikon for an expensive body, so price may be a factor. I'm starting to get addicted to the Sony lenses I have. The CZ 135/1.8 is nearly edge to edge razor sharp wide open on the full frame of the A850 (cropped to APS-C it is flawless) and by about f/4 it is flawless everywhere. The CZ 24-70/2.8 is also very good wide open in the center, and both lenses have image stabilization via the camera body. I'm planning on buying more Sony compatible lenses this year, so it will take something big from Nikon to convince me to buy their latest body instead.
--
Anthony Beach
 
Now you know why I hate it when people here say to me, and they say it all the time, "go buy a Canon 5DM2 then."
Yeah, but you're the one who brought the Canon shooters into the argument. And if I'm not mistaken, Vincent looked at the D90 briefly (it was the first video DSLR), but the 5DII came out so soon after it was a no-brainer for him.
I see. So Sony, Olympus, Pentax, and a host of other companies all have the same ill-founded decision, too?
Yes, that's correct, see you do understand me after all.
Essentially, you just said the "only Canon gets it." If that's the case, I have to reiterate, why haven't you switched to Canon? Given your other response, further down, that you don't expect Nikon will ever fulfill your need, you've essentially said you'll go along with what Nikon does, period. You won't be happy, but you'll go along with it.
It might not be in their financial interest (though I don't think this is the reason why we don't have a D700x yet). Nikon has a lot of territory to try to defend now.
That's lame too, if it's true, (you see, when I'm the customer with the money and the demand, I act just like my clients).
You have to distinguish between your clients and all potential clients . Moreover, I'm pretty sure you'd prioritize amongst your clients. If client A, B, and C each demand 30% of your time and effort and client D demands 20%, exactly how are you going to deal with that? I know how we deal with it in product management. Indeed, that's a good part of what product management is about. If client A, B, and C provide 90% of your income and client D 10%, does that help you prioritize? Your contention is that a D700x would constitute more profit than another product in the pipeline. If there's one thing I've learned about Nikon internally, they are very good at choosing to prioritize the project that has the biggest return. They rarely make mistakes at that.
One higher MP "maybe" in Q1, that's a tepid prediction. Another in a year? Now you sound like me.
No, I said a D700s (D700 using the D3s sensor and adding video), and a D700x type product (using either the D3x sensor or a new sensor, and possibly in a different body, which is why it would be called a D800). In terms of likely development, the D700s would be second, not first. It's too close to the D3s launch to launch a D700s. Thus, I expect a D800 first, the D700s within a year.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
YES they do!

Whoever said they do not, I wonder how that conclusion came about. There are people paid by most major corporations to keep tabs on this stuff and even converse back and forth with those they think have good ideas. Most times without making others aware they are employed by so and so, but sometimes making it known.

If you really want, you can get their attention and put up a good case for a new product or change to existing products and it does matter.

A lot of talk on here is Nikon will just be Nikon and it makes it seem as if Nikon is upholding to some tradition that is not necessarily aimed to please but to do what they think is right and superior in performance. Something like that anyway....its b.s. Nikon is about making money and being Nikon while doing it. If they know just about everyone wants a 22mp SLR for $3,000 they will put it on the market if they think its a well-done project.

Most corporations - If what they came up with looks like ass....they keep working on it until its acceptable or throw in a few more cool features and put it on the market anyway. Usually we get the cool features part....
 
As a large % of the information on these forums is false and useless junk about people asking for unrealistic wants, I don;t believe these forums are a big part of the 'decision making process' of maufacturers, regardless of how much time they spend reading the countless "we want this...." posts.
YES they do!

Whoever said they do not, I wonder how that conclusion came about. There are people paid by most major corporations to keep tabs on this stuff and even converse back and forth with those they think have good ideas. Most times without making others aware they are employed by so and so, but sometimes making it known.

If you really want, you can get their attention and put up a good case for a new product or change to existing products and it does matter.

A lot of talk on here is Nikon will just be Nikon and it makes it seem as if Nikon is upholding to some tradition that is not necessarily aimed to please but to do what they think is right and superior in performance. Something like that anyway....its b.s. Nikon is about making money and being Nikon while doing it. If they know just about everyone wants a 22mp SLR for $3,000 they will put it on the market if they think its a well-done project.

Most corporations - If what they came up with looks like ass....they keep working on it until its acceptable or throw in a few more cool features and put it on the market anyway. Usually we get the cool features part....
 
I assumed Ilkka was talking about high iso, when he said about D3s being 2 stops ahead.
Which is why he said 'two stops ahead of current 24 MP FX in terms of SNR (after averaging pixels corresponding to equal size area in print) at equal ISOs' rather than 'at high ISOs' ?
What you're saying is theoretical. Maybe it can be made. But it isnt. While today, in real life, the D3s looks to me head and shoulders above any other Nikon or Canon camera at high iso.
No one is arguing with that. What is arguable is whether the gain in the D3s is due to it having 12MP. The indications are not, since the D3 has the same size pixels, so the gains are not due to reducing pixel density, but to something else.
I'm not sure that is the most useful way of looking at it. The D3s is ahead of other FF cameras (including the D3), and happens to be 12MP. We don't know whether the same technology applied to a 24MP sensor will yield similar results, so the inferred conclusion that 12MP FX generically is ahead of 24MP FX is not really substantiated.
 
One higher MP "maybe" in Q1, that's a tepid prediction. Another in a year? Now you sound like me.
No, I said a D700s (D700 using the D3s sensor and adding video), and a D700x type product (using either the D3x sensor or a new sensor, and possibly in a different body, which is why it would be called a D800). In terms of likely development, the D700s would be second, not first. It's too close to the D3s launch to launch a D700s. Thus, I expect a D800 first, the D700s within a year.
I see your view, but... A D4 would come before a D800 if that's the lineage, and that would mean 2 years, so that's not likely. However, a new camera, not in the D3 D700 lineage, may be next, but not Q1 2010. A D700X without video, in essence cloning the D3X sensor in a D700 body seems logical and maybe soon, however, I sense Nikon is not willing to part with any sales of the D3X which a D700X would surely kill.

Many of your, and others, assumptions about Nikon's "path" and tendencies is based on a belief that because of the D3 to D700 lineage and timing and because the D700 was identical in IQ to the D3, that they will now follow suit with subsequent releases, in other words a D700X is likely next, identical in IQ to the D3X, but I don't see that as likely at all, and I think the D3s in an indication of that. What is more likely than a D700X is a D3X with 1080 video and a very high price tag, with a simultaneous, dramatic lowering of the D3X price. This is why they just stuck video in a D3, now they will stick video in a D3X, the scary part is when they made the D3s they raised the price, so $9,000 D3X with video is possible.

However, I am hopeful, in the midst of all this tweaking of existing cameras they will release a new camera, a 5DM2 competitor, around July, though my hope is slim for even that. I like 21 MP, 1080 video, high iso equal to the D3s but all of it in a smaller, less robust body with of course less fps than the D3s for around $3,500 to $4,000. Because it won't be a super action camera, the D3s sales will be protected, because it won't be the highest MP the D3X sales will be protected, and because it will be around $4,000, not $2,700 like the 5DM2, it will make Nikon feel safe and happy, and rich. I'll buy it, put a battery drive on it and it will be the camera I have been waiting for for 2 years.

Why does it matter to me? I'm probably in the minority here but here it is again so people can understand I am not bashing Nikon, I am encouraging them:

1. I shoot 95% MF Leaf, Hassy H1 with HTS 1.5, so I don't HAVE TO buy an expensive 35mm camera (the D700, although inexpensive, would be a waste of money with no video).

2. But, there is a new market opening for me that I am getting requests for all the time that make a really versatile 35mm with HD video necessary.

3. With the current economy in nyc (my situation specifically, and many others) paying $8,000 for D3X without video and then also needing to buy a D3s for video and low light ability (total $13,000+) is out of the question financially. Yes, these new opportunities need high MP, low light ability and HD video and no they don't pay enough to warrant that equipment expense, yet. Many of these job opportunities start as freebies and end up with high profile connections.

To me, this is crystal clear, Nikon does not make the camera I need to satisfy my clients or me, and the work around, buying the D3X and the D3s, is cost prohibitive. I am not speaking for anyone else when I say they should make a 5DM2 competitor but I know there are a lot of Nikon users who want what I want, especially because Canon has it now.

So, prediction: July 2010 (though I wish it was Q1 2010) a new model FX camera from Nikon with 21 MP, 1080 HD video, excellent high iso IQ, small body, battery pack available, $3,999. No D700X, no D800, if anything a D3X with video and a dramatic lowering of the price of the D3X (D3X $5,999, D3XHD $7,999).
 
I see your view, but... A D4 would come before a D800 if that's the lineage, and that would mean 2 years, so that's not likely.
Well, that's been one of the interesting questions raised by the rumors of a sensor other than the 24mp one. As I said, I don't believe those rumors. But if I did, we'd have to believe that another FX sensor appears before the D4. That would be unusual for Nikon, but not necessarily impossible. Indeed, if Nikon were to develop another FX sensor, that would start to indicate that they're pulling away from Sony as a supplier.
I sense Nikon is not willing to part with any sales of the D3X which a D700X would surely kill.
Again, there is absolutely no evidence that this would happen. Just the opposite, in fact.
Many of your, and others, assumptions about Nikon's "path" and tendencies is based on a belief...
Nikon is a methodical and fairly predictable company when it comes to product development. They've used the same basic system for over 20 years now. When they start clearly deviating from that--and they haven't yet--I'll change my beliefs.
This is why they just stuck video in a D3, now they will stick video in a D3X,
No one is asking for video in a D3x. No one. This would be a firm indication that Nikon has lost all touch with customers. I don't think they're that far out of touch. This is in distinct contrast to the D3: organizations that buy the D3 in quantity were asking for video in it.
However, I am hopeful, in the midst of all this tweaking of existing cameras they will release a new camera, a 5DM2 competitor, around July,
Well, Feb and August are the traditional Nikon big release months, so if we don't get a new FX body in Feb, then August would be the next likely window.
I like 21 MP, 1080 video, high iso equal to the D3s but all of it in a smaller, less robust body
I like rich, smart, beautiful women who don't have an attitude. But getting all those things in one package is not likely. Simply put, you're not going to get 20+mp with D3s high ISO capability.
2. But, there is a new market opening for me that I am getting requests for all the time that make a really versatile 35mm with HD video necessary.
Uh, that market requires still and video from the same camera? Unlikely. What you're more likely saying is that providing video as well as stills opens up new markets to you. Look, I have a D3s and a D3x. I could go to a gig and shoot video and stills. But I wouldn't do it that way. I'd use my GH1 for the video.
3. With the current economy in nyc (my situation specifically, and many others) paying $8,000 for D3X without video and then also needing to buy a D3s for video and low light ability (total $13,000+) is out of the question financially. Yes, these new opportunities need high MP, low light ability and HD video and no they don't pay enough to warrant that equipment expense, yet. Many of these job opportunities start as freebies and end up with high profile connections.
Well, I'd tend to dispute your financial analysis. You're saying that US$4000 and it's worth exploring this new market, US$13,000 and it's not. That would imply that it would bring in no more than US$9000 in revenue during its lifetime. I'd argue that for you, even paying US$4000 for a camera isn't worth it, then. If this is a real opportunity with real long term income potential, you're being cheap.
So, prediction: July 2010 (though I wish it was Q1 2010) a new model FX camera from Nikon with 21 MP, 1080 HD video, excellent high iso IQ, small body, battery pack available, $3,999. No D700X, no D800, if anything a D3X with video and a dramatic lowering of the price of the D3X (D3X $5,999, D3XHD $7,999).
If Nikon added video to the D3x and lowered the price, it would be a 24mp camera. And it would be inconsistent of Nikon to have a small body and large body camera with the same basic name. So I think your prediction is just wrong due to internal inconsistencies.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
What people ultimately want/desire and what they really need have little to do with each other.
No, smart people know that they will outgrow their present needs, hence they tend to overbuy to provide for future growth.
Overbuying means overpaying. It's not always a good business decision to to pay more for something you might or might not need. If you overbuy you always pay more and too early for something you need later, thus you don't save.

But that is beside the real point. There are very very few people and uses were 24 mp really makes a difference over 12 and is worth compromising other factors like noise, performance, more data and so on.

--
-------David-------
http://flickr.com/photos/childish/
 
But that is beside the real point. There are very very few people and uses were 24 mp really makes a difference over 12 and is worth compromising other factors like noise, performance, more data and so on.
Yuppers, in this part of the market there is indeed.
Michel

--

Disclaimer: Posts written by me are my views, ideas and opinions only, and should not be taken as facts, unless stated otherwise. :-)

Light is eveything


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You're saying that US$4000 and it's worth exploring this new market, US$13,000 and it's not.
No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying I have $4,000 (not 13K) and $4,000 is what it should cost and I don't have $13,000 and that's what it costs now to get high MP and HD video (at Canon it costs $2,700). I am not saying I won't get an ROI on $13,000, I'm saying 13k is foolish, and I don't have it to spare, and waiting for the right camera is smarter, and incredibly annoying and frustrating.
So, prediction: July 2010 (though I wish it was Q1 2010) a new model FX camera from Nikon with 21 MP, 1080 HD video, excellent high iso IQ, small body, battery pack available, $3,999. No D700X, no D800, if anything a D3X with video and a dramatic lowering of the price of the D3X (D3X $5,999, D3XHD $7,999).
If Nikon added video to the D3x and lowered the price, it would be a 24mp camera. And it would be inconsistent of Nikon to have a small body and large body camera with the same basic name. So I think your prediction is just wrong due to internal inconsistencies.
I didn't say either of those 2 things, what were you reading? I said "if anything" in regard to something other or in addition to a new model 5DM2 competitor, "if anything a D3X with video and a dramatic lowering of the price of the D3X (D3X $5,999, D3XHD $7,999)." I didn't say anything about a small body, I said maybe, if anything (else) a D3X with video for a lot of money, and keep the D3X but lower the price. The logic of course, is that that allows a lower MP (21) with video and keeps the D3X the flagship because it would then have video also, and 24 MP, and a higher price than the new model 21 MP. Is it clear now what I really said?
 

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