1 year later still only 1 high MP and 1 high price

If greed was their motivation they would build a Small Form Factor FF unit to compete and outsell them. Only a fool bases their greed on selling somthing not many will or can afford.

Roman
--

One of dem Nik...Nike.....er....um... Fhoto Boxes...wit dat der flashy things....and a stick to rest it on.

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 
The 5DM2, 21 MP 1080 HD video very good high iso and only $2,700
Then buy it. You could spend US$5000 more on lenses and still only be up to the D3x price.
There is not one good reason that Nikon has not answered other than...??? Greed?
Well, let's take those statements/questions backwards. Greed? Really. That's what you want to accuse Nikon of? You would have been made mincemeat by my Business Ethics teacher in the MBA program at IU.

Your definition of "greed" is "lower your price until I can afford it." A more common definition is "desire to acquire or possess more than one needs or deserves."

So you're accusing Nikon of trying to acquire more than they need or deserve. Let's take the need part: they're a company struggling with a collapse in one of their main businesses, and they have significant though not overwhelming debt. Nope, I think they need the money. Do they deserve it? Hmm. A lot of Canon shooters switching to a D3/D3s seem to think so, otherwise they wouldn't have switched.

Sorry, but I'd guess that you're more "greedy" than Nikon by the common definition of the word.
A company philosophy and agenda that is focused more on premium prices for all products in the pro range?
Common sense tells you that people don't pay a premium price for something unless they get something in return. Perhaps ISO 12,800 that's usable? Bodies that are built like tanks? A better AF system? You'd like a discount applied for all those things, perhaps?
But they probably do think that offering anything like the 5DM2 will hurt their bottom line,
On that particular thought I can assure that Nikon most assuredly doesn't think that. And you only have to look at the D700/D3 relationship and sales numbers to tell you that your contention isn't even close to true. The facts say differently.
a reason Canon clearly does NOT fear,
And there you almost go about disproving your own assertion. If Canon does not fear that a 5DII cannibalizes 1DsIII sales, then why would Nikon fear a D700x would canniablize D3x sales? Essentially, you just made the claim that Nikon executives are idiots and can't see evidence presented to them by their largest competitor. If you think so lowly of Nikon executives, perhaps you ought to have switched systems a long time ago.
Nikon believes offering one high MP 1080 HD video camera for under $3,000 will end all sales of the D3X and probably seriously hurt all sales of the D3s; and they may be right.
They don't think that, and they wouldn't be right if they did. The evidence--and there's plenty of it--says just the opposite.
In this economy, with the anger over the price of the D3X, sure, they could believe sales of the D3X would go to zero if they released a 5DM2 type camera and price.
Your logic defies logic. If people are "angry" over the price of a D3x, they aren't going to buy it. So the sales would go to zero, anyway. Funny thing is, D3x sales I think surprised Nikon a bit in how robust they've been.
Are they right? No. Are they right for them, to fear it to the point of never releasing a camera like that and never releasing a D700X either, probably yes, and so far, that's proven 100% true, they have no moderately or low priced high MP camera and I don't see one coming.
No, you don't see one coming, just as you don't see any evidence contrary to your assertions. One might suspect that your eyesight may not be up to snuff. But even if you've got 20/20 vision on all things photographic, just exactly where would you have seen whether or not a high megapixel is coming or not? Be specific now.
the 5DM2 is actually more feature laden than the D3X,
Yep, I think that proved my assertion about your eyesight. Apparently video makes something "laden." (I learn something new every day ;l~).
the desire to believe 12 MP is good enough for everything, well sorry, it's not good enough for a lot of things.
Some examples might be useful to your argument. And by the way, did you send in your 12mp NEF for examination and tell us how many > 24" prints you've made and will make yet? ;~)

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Run through the posts....I am the first one through the gate.

Funny though....I didnt make a post that I was approved for.....

Hummmmmmm....
Of course, Silly. That's a second test! ;) You have to post it first, THEN ask for approval. You also have to start the post with "Mother, may I . . ." I qualified two years ago - would that count? No, wait, I never e-mailed anyone a NEF!!!!! Geeezzz. This is gonna be tougher than I thought. Not only that, it's snowing in Central Arizona.
Roman
--

One of dem Nik...Nike.....er....um... Fhoto Boxes...wit dat der flashy things....and a stick to rest it on.

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
--
Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com
http://www.ghost-town-photography.com
 
Truth is it's not about what makes sense, what is sane or what would actually show up in the final product. What people ultimately want/desire and what they really need have little to do with each other.

People love to buy things that exceed their needs because it makes them feel more professional, bigger, better, more advanced. It's human nature, and applies to many areas, not just photography.

We are so good in coming up with all kinds of justifications why we really need this or that. Again it has nothing to do with what we really need.

--
-------David-------
http://flickr.com/photos/childish/
 
The point remains that the camera you want (if you want high-MP) is out there. It's just made by a different manufacturer. If it's that big of a problem, go buy one. That's all.
I am sure that Nikon is delighted that apparent Nikon fans recommend potential customers to switch brands.
 
People love to buy things that exceed their needs because it makes them feel more professional, bigger, better, more advanced. It's human nature, and applies to many areas, not just photography.
Cool....gonna buy that new Camero SS and send it over to Hennessey and get that HPE 800HP kit.

Yeeeeeee Haaaaaa!!!

Roman

--

One of dem Nik...Nike.....er....um... Fhoto Boxes...wit dat der flashy things....and a stick to rest it on.

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 
Your supporters and several of us have gone round and round about the possibility of a higher megapixel prosumer camera coming from Nikon. After reading your last post I am now convinced that this isn't about Nikon making that type of camera, but about Nikon. After all the history I have cited to you; after all the holes in your logic that others pointed out to you, you still believe that Nikon is not a business. Everything you say about Nikon goes contrary to the the good business practices a successful company like Nikon would have to follow. I don't think that any one can convince you otherwise. So whatever animosity you have about Nikon, take it to heart and do something about it. Sell your Nikon's (if you have any) and go Canon.
 
No contradiction here. Sorry to burst your bubble but, 'not scouring these forums for a marketing strategy' is NOT 'ignoring market demands'.
Hey, they're your words and not mine, "They know what they're doing and learning from Canon's mistakes as well as their own, and will release when they are ready, not necessarily when the market is ready." If the market is ready, then Nikon is not meeting that market demand. Whether that is expressed by some malcontents like myself on the Internet, or (more to the point) by people like me buying their competitor's products, either way it represents a lost opportunity for Nikon.
Besides where in the marketing rule book does it state that internet forums = market demands. As important as market demands are, Nikon, like any company can't just push out products in reply to 'market demands'. They need to be smarter than that to remain sustainable in the long term.
Well, Nikon lost my business this year. I've been a fairly reliable customer of theirs over the last few years, upgrading my DSLRs and spending thousands of dollars on lenses. Now that money will be going to Sony for the next couple of years.

Part of what has pushed me to this is a pattern from Nikon of being somewhat oblivious to what I want. That's fine, I'm not the one that started a thread complaining about it, I just commented here (both defending Nikon and explaining why I went elsewhere this year).
Making cameras isn't as simple as making sandwiches, contrary to popular belief on these forums.
I never said it was. OTOH, there is no great effort required to stick a D3x sensor in a D700 body. My guess is that at the right price the camera would have been a big hit, and I would have paid upwards of $4000 for one. However, the longer Nikon takes the less relevant a camera like that will be. For me, a camera like that announced sometime next year, or last week, is now irrelevant.
--
Anthony Beach
 
There is not one good reason that Nikon has not answered other than...??? Greed?>
the 5DM2 is actually more feature laden than the D3X,
Yep, I think that proved my assertion about your eyesight. Apparently video makes something "laden." (I learn something new every day ;l~).
Ask people like Vincent Laforet and Robert Caplin why they prefer the 5DM2 over the D3X.

Thanks for the response but you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I want Nikon to make (so I can use my many Nikon prime lenses) an affordable moderately priced 21 MP FX camera with 1080 HD video and very good high iso for around $3,000. Canon proved it can be done a long time ago and so after all this time I think there is no logical reason for them to have not done it other than a business bottom line decision that is probably ill founded and I explained why.

I noticed through all your response you offered no reason why they don't yet have one, and if I recall, you actually predicted a D700X type camera for this December then switched to Q1 2010, am I right? So, it's not here, nothing like it, so can you explain why Nikon hasn't done it, or are you just going to say the safe thing, like "it's coming soon" or "they don't work that way." Really, why don't they offer it now?

I suggested by a question mark that it might be greed but I don't know, I guess you missed that inference. What I mean by (misguided) "greed" is that I suspect they don't offer it because it's not in their financial interest in their mind. You might think that's their prerogative, but that's not what I'm arguing, I'm saying their prerogative may be or is unfounded and incorrect. They think "don't release a D700X, I know people want it but it will degrade our high prices", whereas I think, "release it, Canon did, it will increase your status and bottom line. You see, all I'm doing is trying to figure out why they don't have one yet, you seem to not say why it's not here yet as if it doesn't matter, it does matter if their reason is greed.

A lot of (all) people thought housing prices in the northeast would never go lower, only higher, but I, and all my friends can back this up, was warning them for years it was all coming to an end, and by a 50% loss (ie buy it for $900,000 and now it's worth barely $450,000) it happened, it was real, I knew it, no one listened to me and this sounds like the same thing. The example is given because everyone was telling me I was wrong, and I was right. Now I'm saying there is a reason a moderately priced high MP is not offered by Nikon and it means you won't see one for a long while.

So tell me, why isn't it here yet? If you think it's coming soon, what proof do you have, other than "we've waited this long, it must be around the corner."
 
Some examples might be useful to your argument. And by the way, did you send in your 12mp NEF for examination and tell us how many > 24" prints you've made and will make yet? ;~)
Ex post facto since the thread was started before your dictate. Maybe the best way to enforce this is to not respond.

I've made a few > 24" prints, but have been reticent to because I've been dissatisfied with the results to date. OTOH, I plan on making more now that I have more MP. Ironically though, I'm not starting these threads and would not start one -- I don't see any point to it.
--
Anthony Beach
 
Most people here will never match the quality of their work to their cameras and never 'need' the abilities their cameras offer. Me? I'm a tradtionalist that believes in enhancing my own abilities with a camera BEFORE expecting more from my camera.

I believe this has worked for me at least. All the best Stephen.
Hi Kristian:

I'm also starting to really get into just how good an 11x14 can be. Having to work within limits can be a good thing - and lead to real creative breakthroughs.

Stephen
 
On my website I have a 'passion project' I'm working on called 'Hollywood Dreaming' which I will tur into a book and donate 100% of the profits to homeless shelters and woman's shelters in the Holywood area.

I'm not preaching that we need to do good in this world with out cameras, but we need to focus on what's most important, and that doesn't require medium format quality in an SLR just cause we demand it.

Instead of focusing our energy on silly things like endless camera upgrades, maybe we can just try to be appreciatove of what we have, especially in a season where for many people this is a ver very sad time, for various reasons other than 'not having something we want'.

Merry Xmas all, enjoy the cameras you have now
Some of us donate a LOT of our work to help worthy causes.

I would ask what you have used your gear to help with recently.

Not assuming the worst or the best...just asking.

Roman
--

One of dem Nik...Nike.....er....um... Fhoto Boxes...wit dat der flashy things....and a stick to rest it on.

http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/
 
If you've been dissatisfied with 24" prints from current Nikon products, then why aren't you shooting medium format? 35mm film isn't any better than the current 12MP sensors from Nikon, so it's not like you're any worse off than if we didn't have digital.
Some examples might be useful to your argument. And by the way, did you send in your 12mp NEF for examination and tell us how many > 24" prints you've made and will make yet? ;~)
Ex post facto since the thread was started before your dictate. Maybe the best way to enforce this is to not respond.

I've made a few > 24" prints, but have been reticent to because I've been dissatisfied with the results to date. OTOH, I plan on making more now that I have more MP. Ironically though, I'm not starting these threads and would not start one -- I don't see any point to it.
--
Anthony Beach
 
Some examples might be useful to your argument. And by the way, did you send in your 12mp NEF for examination and tell us how many > 24" prints you've made and will make yet? ;~)
Ex post facto since the thread was started before your dictate. Maybe the best way to enforce this is to not respond.
Oh, I'm sure that once this thread fills up he'll start another if we let him...

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Still $8,000 if you include nyc tax, which I have to. I'm sure it's worth it for some but I'm also sure there are tens of thousands of Nikon users who can't afford it in this economy, and want it.
It never ceased to amaze the comparison between one brand against another. If I want a high performance, safe, extremely reliable, fun to drive car . . . I will buy BMW or Lexus, if I can afford it.

I'll not complain and expect BMW and Lexus to lower their price because Ford Mustang can sell it cheaper.

- - - -
ecube
 
If you've been dissatisfied with 24" prints from current Nikon products, then why aren't you shooting medium format? 35mm film isn't any better than the current 12MP sensors from Nikon, so it's not like you're any worse off than if we didn't have digital.
Just in case you missed it, Anthony bought a Sony A850 to dabble with a 24mp camera rather than wait for Nikon.

However, I'm with you: you shouldn't be dissatisfied with a 24" print from the 12mp cameras. It's well within the capability. You'd be feeding an Epson 175 dpi without resizing anything, and I think you should be able to resize 2x, so we're potentially feeding the Epson just about every last pixel it wants (360 dpi).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Absolutely Thom, maybe because I'm a full time working Pro I don't really undertsand why people have such needs/wants when digital now provides so much more than what I/we could accomplish with film.

I still kick myself when I can go shot to shot changing ISO at will, and now to ISO 12,800 - unbelieveable. Honestly, after my issues with Canon, I'm just happy to have equipment that provides sharp images.
If you've been dissatisfied with 24" prints from current Nikon products, then why aren't you shooting medium format? 35mm film isn't any better than the current 12MP sensors from Nikon, so it's not like you're any worse off than if we didn't have digital.
Just in case you missed it, Anthony bought a Sony A850 to dabble with a 24mp camera rather than wait for Nikon.

However, I'm with you: you shouldn't be dissatisfied with a 24" print from the 12mp cameras. It's well within the capability. You'd be feeding an Epson 175 dpi without resizing anything, and I think you should be able to resize 2x, so we're potentially feeding the Epson just about every last pixel it wants (360 dpi).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Ask people like Vincent Laforet and Robert Caplin why they prefer the 5DM2 over the D3X.
Vincent was a Canon shooter to start with. And it's clear from reading his blog that he was lusting after doing some video long before we had any DSLRs that could do so. So it seems pretty natural he'd pick up on the 5DII in a hurry. Robert, too, is a long-time Canon shooter. So, I guess that both would tend to prefer a Canon solution to a Nikon solution, with or without video.

FWIW, I, too, am dabbling with video. However, I've chosen a GH1 as my weapon of choice. I just think it does a better job of the video end than the 5DII. But who am I since I haven't posted anything on Vimeo (disclosure: I have a degree in filmmaking, have some feature film experience, a lot of documentary experience, and taught filmmaking for four years at a big university, produced and directed shows for regional PBS; no, I don't know what I'm doing).
Thanks for the response but you misunderstand where I'm coming from.
No, I think I understand it perfectly. Nikon isn't producing what you crave. So you'll just pound on them until they do. I sure hope that this isn't the way you conduct your personal relationships, too.
I think there is no logical reason for them to have not done it other than a business bottom line decision that is probably ill founded and I explained why.
I see. So Sony, Olympus, Pentax, and a host of other companies all have the same ill-founded decision, too? But basically you wanted Nikon to drop everything else and just produce the camera you want. That's what it boils down to. Never mind that their low-end cameras, which is where they make most of their money, need a bit of work. Never mind that m4/3 has exposed a weakness. Never mind that other cameras were due for updates. Just produce the one you want and they'll be making the "right" business decision.
I noticed through all your response you offered no reason why they don't yet have one,
Simple reason: they haven't gotten to that on their product development schedule. Nikon's pretty predictable. They have teams enough to do three or four cameras a year. They chose to put those teams elsewhere. And it would be difficult to dispute their logic. D3000, D5000, D300s are all bread and butter projects. D3s just makes the 1DIV look a little bit out of date and will continue Nikon's recent dominance of the FX pro camera ranks.

If you'd be willing to look at a little history, the D700 was a year after the D3. A D700x would likely be a year or more after a D3x. Why? Because you can't develop the follow-on until you've got the thing it follows locked down. If Nikon were to launch a new pro camera today, it would have started development at least a year-and-a-half ago. At least. Yes, the D3 and D300 were done together. That was a planned effort, and it took pretty much everything Nikon had at the pro end to do it. So, D3x was a year ago (seems like longer, doesn't it?). A D700x might be expected about now, which was my original guess. The problem, though, is video. If we're to believe the rumors about the D3x sensor not being conducive to video (which I don't, by the way), a D700x would be based on something new. But even if it wasn't, the video on DSLR game has changed rapidly. 720P/24 M-JPEG is not enough. That means more work to do, and new work, not simple modification work. And don't tell me that they could just hire more engineers or work harder or faster until you've read and understand The Mythical Man Month.

So, I've never expected a D700x before about now, and it doesn't surprise me much that we didn't get it.
What I mean by (misguided) "greed" is that I suspect they don't offer it because it's not in their financial interest in their mind.
It might not be in their financial interest (though I don't think this is the reason why we don't have a D700x yet). Nikon has a lot of territory to try to defend now. All the way from a lowly US$99 pocket camera to a US$7999 rivals-MF pro camera. Ultimately, they pretty much have to back fill all the possibilities in that range. But at any given time, it's likely that they're looking at which thing brings the most return for the R&D investment. That may not be a D700x. It might be a D700s, a D90 replacement, or something else. The 5DII has gotten a lot of press, much like the 5D before it. But also like the 5D before it, it doesn't seem to be selling quite in line with all that publicity. It sells well, but apparently not as well as the lowly D700. Go figure.

So, it's possible that Nikon is looking at numbers and making a decision different than you'd want them to. Again, I don't think that's likely. I think Nikon pretty much has to do both a D700s and something with more pixels (D700x-type). But are they here today? No. Will they be here in Q1? One of them may. When will they both be here? I think by early 2011.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
If you've been dissatisfied with 24" prints from current Nikon products, then why aren't you shooting medium format? 35mm film isn't any better than the current 12MP sensors from Nikon, so it's not like you're any worse off than if we didn't have digital.
I think if I were shooting film, I would have made the transition to medium format by now.
--
Anthony Beach
 

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