D3s and D3x at base ISO

Hi,
The question in this thread was that whether when viewed at less than 100% of the D3 > resolution (which 99% of your images will, most often at best full-screen on a 24" (or > maybe 30") monitor or when printed at moderate sizes), one can see a difference.
The original question was more to do with the general look of the files, that first impression, wthout getting into any specifics...

But your question is also an interesting one...

Regards

--
Renato

http://www.renato-lopes.com
http://www.renatolopesblog.com
 
What happened to the detail on the D3x now? Those regular patterns are getting smudged by something, perhaps the downsizing. Perhaps the D3s is better ;~).
Are you honestly suggesting that the 12mp D3s can resolve more real-world detail than the 24.5mp D3x? I've been using D3 and D3x since launch, not shooting brick walls, newspapers and test charts, just real-world jobs. Here is my non-scientific test:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=30759631

Please let me know in your judgement which version is resolving more real-world information. I've tried out the D3s, I'd say, again in my crazy non-scientific method, that it resolves the same amount of detail as the D3, but with a stop more high ISO:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightboxuk/sets/72157622828435852/

Simon Kirwan
I don't know much about science, but I know what I like
--
Lightbox Photography : http://www.the-lightbox.com
Aerial Photography : http://www.aerial-photographer.co.uk
Stock: http://photo.the-lightbox.com/
 
Are you honestly suggesting that the 12mp D3s can resolve more
Let's start with a question, Iliah style ;~).

Define resolve.
Translation: Any answer is arbitrary and thus meaningless since it depends on a definition which most likely is also arbitrary.

Or would a definition about smallest font size still readable be too practical?
 
The downsampling method could also have produced "artifacts" that include "detail" that would be obscured in the lower megapixel camera. This gets a little difficult to explain, but details produced this way are faux.
Ha! This reminds me of my early pixel peeking with my D70. I was amazed at the resolution of my lenses because I could see all the little tufts in the branches of the trees across the lake. I know now that what I was looking at was noise!!
Pete
 
Are you honestly suggesting that the 12mp D3s can resolve more real-world detail than the 24.5mp D3x? I've been using D3 and D3x since launch, not shooting brick walls, newspapers and test charts, just real-world jobs. Here is my non-scientific test:
I might be talking about a different test here and I apologize if that's the case but is this the test where digiloyd downsizes the D3x files to lose some of the resolution but to see if there is some gain in the noise performance aproaching that of the D3s? I don't think there's any question about whether or not the D3x has better resolution than the S.
Pete
 
Are you honestly suggesting that the 12mp D3s can resolve more
Let's start with a question, Iliah style ;~).

Define resolve.
Translation: Any answer is arbitrary and thus meaningless since it depends on a definition which most likely is also arbitrary.
That translation is too jaded. A better one would say that an answer is meaningful if it's in answer to an agreed upon definition of resolution. The fact that there can be equally valid alternate definitions of resolution doesn't mean that all answers must necessarily be arbitrary.

Or would a definition about smallest font size still readable be too practical?
Typeface size or font? Sounds reasonable to me if you add other details, such as focal length, shooting distance, color and last but not least the font. Lucida, Bodoni Bold, Gill Sans, Goudy Stout, Mistral, Palatino or good old Times Roman? Some prefer scenic shots of leaves, but that answer my friend, is blowin' in the wind.
 
Thom Hogan said:

...define resolve.

Ok. Three related definitions:

1. Resolution of fine detail around 3 lpmm on a 12x18 inkjet print. Is the d3x better or worse than the d3s? My guess is that there is no real difference.

2. The crossover point where as iso increases, the resolution in lpmm of the d3x raw file drops below the d3s.

3. The crossover point of apparent sharpness. A really clean file with lower absolute resolution may well look 'sharper' than a noiser high rez file. I believe Thom spots digital 20% or so compared to scanned film for this reason.

My guess is that the very clean files from the d3s have dropped the crossover point of apparent sharpness down a stop or two, while the crossover point measured in lpmm is about the same as with the d3x/d3.
 
I actually can see the difference in resolution in the downsampled images.
No you don't. I going to start harping on this kind of statement more and more. What you see mostly is changes in edge acuity.
Well, he could well be. The downsampled 24MP image should have a flatter spatial frequency response (which might be interpreted as having more resolution - it would make the MTF50 of the combined system occur at a higher frequency). You can see the reason by looking at these graphs (prepared for something completely different, but will illustrate the point here):



The graph shows the lens MTF (the one we're interested here is the f/2 line), the A filter MTF and the combined MTF at a number of different sensor resolutions (actually prepared for an APS-C camera, and the source for the graphs was a bit awry, but the principle holds)

Let's consider as an analogue for 12 and 24MP FF cameras, the 6 and 12MP APS-C cameras. Look at the third graph, the combined response. The 6MP has the minimum of the filter placed at 70 lp/mm. It's MTF50 is about 45 lp/mm. The 12MP camera has its filter minimum at 105 lp/mm, and an MTF50 at about 60 lp/mm. If we downsample the 12MP camera to 6MP with a properly designed digital filter with a sharp cutoff (as opposed to the gradual one of the AA filter) we can achieve an MTF50 much closer to the Nyquist (70 lp/mm) than can be achieved with the 6MP AA filter.

Of course, as you suggest, to do this it is critical to downsample properly, with that sharp filter effect, but it remains true that a 24MP camera can achieve higher resolution at 12MP than a 12MP one can. It is akin to the effect of removing the AA filter, without the aliasing.
 
Lightbox wrote:
Define resolve.
Seems straightforward enough to me, taken from Simon's 100% crops that he linked to in the post you are replying to:



Maybe more detail can be extracted from the D3 file (I don't know), but then it stands to reason that if that's so then more detail can also be extracted from the D3x file (or maybe not; again, I don't know). Nonetheless, I can more easily read the text and the texture of the ropes is more clearly defined in the D3x crop.
--
Anthony Beach
 
1. Resolution of fine detail around 3 lpmm on a 12x18 inkjet print. Is the d3x better or worse than the d3s? My guess is that there is no real difference.
You can't define something using the term. You've essentially said "resolution is resolution..." Okay, you said "resolution of detail," but that's a meaningless construct: we don't talk about " resolution of large shapes." Now if you had said "appearance of more detail" we might have had something to talk about...
2. The crossover point where as iso increases, the resolution in lpmm of the d3x raw file drops below the d3s.
This is indeed a real measurement, and is often done by those of us who test. It is partly the basis for my "I'll take a D3x up to ISO 800..." statements. But only partly.
3. The crossover point of apparent sharpness. A really clean file with lower absolute resolution may well look 'sharper' than a noiser high rez file. I believe Thom spots digital 20% or so compared to scanned film for this reason.
You're talking about edge acuity versus tonal clarity. Indeed, this is a biggie. And it's one that most of us won't agree upon. Some people would rather have "detail" in their tonal ramps, others would rather have a pure tonal ramp. And it can be subject dependent. Consider skies, for instance. A blue sky shouldn't have extra apparent detail in it, but should be a pure tonal ramp. At least I think most people will agree with that. But skin, that's a different story, and it depends upon who's doing the deciding (fashion magazine, no detail; random guy or gal who bought a D3x because it has more pixels, more detail ;~).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Nonetheless, I can more easily read the text and the texture of the ropes is more clearly defined in the D3x crop.
Definition is not necessarily more resolution. Consider an unsharpened image versus a sharpened one. Are you seriously going to tell me that the sharpened image has more "resolution" than the unsharpened one?

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Why not forget the definitions and simply use our eyes?
Well, you can use your eyes, but how are you going to explain the difference to me without definitions we agree upon? One of the things that photography is still struggling with that art resolved long ago is a common set of agreed upon definitions so that we can actually talk about what does and doesn't work in an image. And what we do and don't like.

If you look carefully at how the words like "resolution" are being used by people here, you'll find that they mean very different things to different people. Think again about my question in a post above: is anyone here going to seriously try to convince me that a sharpened image has more "resolution" than the same image unsharpened? Hmm. Maybe when we look at an image and see clarity of edges it isn't resolution that we're seeing. Thing is, the great post processors have figured these things out. When they see lack of edge clarity, they know what to do about it. When they see lack of micro contrast, they know what to do to bring it out. Yet we have posters here that will say the "before" has less resolution than the "after."

Words carry meaning. That meaning is only useful if it is a shared meaning. So. Define resolution...

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Well, he could well be. The downsampled 24MP image should have a flatter spatial frequency response (which might be interpreted as having more resolution - it would make the MTF50 of the combined system occur at a higher frequency).
Ah, now we're getting somewhere. This is indeed how we try to figure out "resolution" in lab. The question still remains as to whether that's what we're seeing in the examples. And my quick analysis is no, it is not. They do not seem to be prepared in a way that would allow us to say that the downsampled D3x is out-resolving the D3s. There are too many areas where the downsampling should be better and isn't.
Of course, as you suggest, to do this it is critical to downsample properly, with that sharp filter effect, but it remains true that a 24MP camera can achieve higher resolution at 12MP than a 12MP one can. It is akin to the effect of removing the AA filter, without the aliasing.
Yes, it should be. But I see aliasing in the downsampled images.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Why not forget the definitions and simply use our eyes?
Well, you can use your eyes, but how are you going to explain the difference to me without definitions we agree upon?
I don't need to explain the difference to you. It is plain for all to see, as others have pointed out - look at the sample images, using the scientific optical instruments in your head instead of advancing arcane arguments. I have been using the D3x this year to photograph the same aerial sites that I used the D3 for last year. I and my clients can see the difference - the D3x produces images with more information - I don't care how you define it.

--
Lightbox Photography : http://www.the-lightbox.com
Aerial Photography : http://www.aerial-photographer.co.uk
Stock: http://photo.the-lightbox.com/
 
What about about macro/ladscape photography? Even to the random guy... More pixels, more detail/definition (or whatever you wan call it...)?
Are you sure? Your DOF is pretty darned small. (There's an answer to this, but I'm checking to see if others know it.)

One thing I want to remind everyone is that the D2h, yes D2h, was renowned for its "resolution." (Not really, it was edge clarity, low AA, and excellent tonal contrast.) There are folk still using the D2h producing large prints that you'd never attribute to a 4mp camera.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
I and my clients can see the difference - the D3x produces images with more information - I don't care how you define it.
Funny. Actually really funny. I have one image that I intentionally added noise in certain areas to. It has "more information" in those areas. Clients can't see the difference. I can. So I care how I define it.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 

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