1 year later still only 1 high MP and 1 high price

when she told me, quote: "It's why you are not the World Photographer of the Year because Nikon has only one high MP body and that is over $8000 Cdn".
End of quote (and sarcasm).
Joe
http://joecan.smugmug.com/
If you are always telling the truth, you don't have to remember what you said.
 
They produced their first FF Dslr in 2002, their second in 2004 and their first prosumer FF in 2005. I am talking about Canon. It took Canon another 3 years to produce a "high MP" prosumer priced FF DSLR to market. On the other hand Nikon produced the same number of FF DSLRs in one year. Yes...Nikon's decision to go FF was a long time in coming and a painful wait. But now they are in it, I believe that they will continue to do what is successful and produce a high mid range FF DSLR with increased MP in a timely manner. 1st quarter 2010. So either wait or go buy a 5d MKII.

The fact is that for camera makers, product life is a very important part of their profitability. When the 5 D came out it lasted for a very long 3 years. Canon squeezed every last dollar out of it that they could. I believe that the 5DMKII only came out because the D700 was introduced shortly before. A prototype of the MK II was sitting in the Canon labs for a long time before it was introduced. Nikon is playing catchup, but economics still prevents them from abandoning a very successful product (D700) in less than a year. Nikon, like Canon, is squeezing every last dollar. If the "D800" (D700X) comes by March 2010, it would have been a 20 month product cycle...actually a little too long in this digital age.
 
There is also no way they are going to release a new 18 MP camera with inferior resolution and inferior high iso ability and inferior video compared to currently existing cameras just to keep the price moderate. That would be the dumbest thing they could do, and do it in 2 months? No way.
Resolution is not solely a MP number. Why would you presume worse ISO performance or inferior video? Maybe you will be right, but I suspect that Nikon will offer a strong product at a premium price.
I SAID "there is no way they are going to release a new 18 MP camera with inferior resolution etc just to keep the price moderate." Then you said "why would you presume worse iso performance etc." SO THEREFORE, I mean Nikon will offer a strong product at a premium price. Oh, funny that's what you said too, what an amazing coincidence, we agree!

I thought maybe if I shouted this time you would hear what I already said. Cheers, I mean, CHEERS!!!

PS: other people have been saying it, that's where it came from, silly posters who say, imply, etc that the next Nikon will purposely be less resolution than the D3X and worse high iso than the D3/D700/D3s in order for it to 1. be higher MP than the D3s and 2. have video which the D3X doesn't and 3. to have almost as much MP as the D3X. You see, that's THEIR logic for believing there is room for a 5DM2 competitor at the 5DM2 price, and you and I know that's RIDICULOUS!

Look Nikon, just put 1080 HD video in a D3X and give it the high iso IQ of the D3s and charge $9,000, i'll buy it, I promise.
 
If the "D800" (D700X) comes by March 2010, it would have been a 20 month product cycle...actually a little too long in this digital age.
Okay, but what if it doesn't come out in March 2010? What if the next iteration is a D3XS with 1080 HD video and tweaked high iso for $9,000, then nothing after that for a year except maybe a 7D type DX with 16 or 18 MP? There are a lot of things Nikon can do, and can't do, that prevent a true 5DM2 competitor. I don't see one good reason from anyone, especially not from Nikon that they have any interest in a 5DM2 competitor, even though they must clearly see the windfall profits it has gained Canon, that camera is STILL selling like hot cakes. If I worked at a high level at Nikon, I would be sick over this.
 
I SAID "there is no way they are going to release a new 18 MP camera with inferior resolution etc just to keep the price moderate." Then you said "why would you presume worse iso performance etc." SO THEREFORE, I mean Nikon will offer a strong product at a premium price. Oh, funny that's what you said too, what an amazing coincidence, we agree!

I thought maybe if I shouted this time you would hear what I already said. Cheers, I mean, CHEERS!!!
No need to shout, I just didn't read your post the way you intended it. Having just re-read your post, I still feel your position could be more clearly stated -- for instance, 18 MP (all other things being equal) is less resolution than 21 MP.
PS: other people have been saying it, that's where it came from, silly posters who say, imply, etc that the next Nikon will purposely be less resolution than the D3X and worse high iso than the D3/D700/D3s in order for it to 1. be higher MP than the D3s and 2. have video which the D3X doesn't and 3. to have almost as much MP as the D3X. You see, that's THEIR logic for believing there is room for a 5DM2 competitor at the 5DM2 price, and you and I know that's RIDICULOUS!
I suspect a "tweener" product, but not because Nikon is trying to mollify D3x owners, rather because of what I wrote in my first reply about Nikon making a break with Sony. Breaking with Sony may already be having the desired effect for Nikon, the A550 sensor only has one customer, and the price of that camera is a little high (which may be a result of Nikon not helping offset the sensor's production costs by purchasing boatloads of them).
Look Nikon, just put 1080 HD video in a D3X and give it the high iso IQ of the D3s and charge $9,000, i'll buy it, I promise.
High ISO performance and high resolution may be in conflict with one another for reasons other than just the size of the photosites. Color separation is also an issue.
--
Anthony Beach
 
Okay, but what if it doesn't come out in March 2010? What if the next iteration is a D3XS with 1080 HD video and tweaked high iso for $9,000, then nothing after that for a year except maybe a 7D type DX with 16 or 18 MP? There are a lot of things Nikon can do, and can't do, that prevent a true 5DM2 competitor. I don't see one good reason from anyone, especially not from Nikon that they have any interest in a 5DM2 competitor, even though they must clearly see the windfall profits it has gained Canon, that camera is STILL selling like hot cakes. If I worked at a high level at Nikon, I would be sick over this.
We can talk about "what if" scenarios all the time. The difference between your what if and my what if is I do see an interest from Nikon in competing in the mid-high range FF market. If they were not interested in this market, they would not have produced the D700 in the first place. The fact that it has been so successful, despite the higher MP Canon. The success of the canon and the Nikon can only whet their appetite for more money with an improved camera, and they know that all good things come to an end. There is a larger market for the mid-high range DSLR than for the premium DSLR.

Nikon has proven that it can develope more than one camera at a time. If by chance you are right and the D3XS comes out before the D7XX-D8XX (I hope some one has a good receipe for crow), what is to stop them from introducing a D700 replacement shortly thereafter?
 
Agree completely. Nikon is probably pretty busy with a new sensor
The new sensor is already there (oops! ;-)
new lenses and maybe even a new compact system. Sometimes you just have to wait. Look at all the people on the Canon forum. They have waited for 4 years for Canon to come out with the 5D mkII and many are not happy with it because of the AF. We know for sure the AF will be fine, we know the MP's wil go up, we know the high ISO will be excellent and we know it will have video. We just don't know exactly in what month Nikon will bring it in 2010.
A camera will always offer more than it's previous model, it can be by features, image quality etc. Lets wait indeed! :-)

Michel
--

Disclaimer: Posts written by me are my views, ideas and opinions only, and should not be taken as facts, unless stated otherwise. :-)

Light is eveything


http://www.fotopropaganda.com
http://www.fotopropaganda.nl
http://www.pbase.com/photopropaganda
 
in their pick up trucks. They also have V-8's in their Lexus line.

Chevrolet has an industry-leading and altering fuel cell vehicle, the Volt, nearing production, that doesn't have an internal combustion engine, a significant technological leap beyond Toyota's current hybrids, which combine electric and internal combustion engine (gasoline power) power units. The times, they are a changing.
 
are tens of thousands of Nikon users who can't afford it in this economy, and want it.

sorta like the VW owners that can't afford a bently?
 
Look Nikon, just put 1080 HD video in a D3X and give it the high iso IQ of the D3s and charge $9,000, i'll buy it, I promise.
High ISO performance and high resolution may be in conflict with one another for reasons other than just the size of the photosites. Color separation is also an issue.
Right. The problem is not about just putting something in the camera - you need to first develop the technology to do it. Current state-of-the-art 12 MP FX is approximately two stops ahead of current 24 MP FX in terms of SNR (after averaging pixels corresponding to equal size area in print) at equal ISOs. This puts the 24 MP cameras in a position of being inferior for most uses apart from tripod-bound base ISO shooting of still subjects.

What Nikon is likely to do is put the D3s sensor in the D700s body in six-to-ten months. Higher resolution in a compact body would be expected in the next generation in 2012.

Equally well we could be complaining Canon for not competing in color separation and producing cameras that generate lifeless high ISO images. Or for not having a working AF system that spreads out to a good part of the frame (Nikon offers that e.g. in the D300s). No one brand is going to produce everything for everybody.
 
Whereas this forum continually fills with lookalike threads demanding "more pixels",

And whereas the "more pixels" threads typically repeat things that have already been written and eventually degrade into personal commentary rather than camera commentary,

Be it hereby resolved that anyone creating any new thread claiming to need more pixels must prior to starting the thread submit the following evidence: a NEF file from a 12mp Nikon DSLR that said person is using to establish their claim that they need more pixels. In addition to providing said image, prospective more pixel poster must also provide the following information: the number of prints they've made larger than 24" on the long axis in the past 12 months, and the number of prints larger than 24" on the long axis they expect to make in the coming 12 months.

Upon reviewing said material, the prospective more pixel poster will be either denied or accepted in his request for creating another new "I need more pixels" thread.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
as u are until I went to Sony A900. Excellent model, even more affordable with A850. U have Nikon glasses? Don't worry. Get a CZ 24-70/2.4 and u'll cover much of most people's shooting. Once u got more confidence, get a 70-400 which is really really very sharp (though not a 2.8 lens but the SSS is extremely silent and quick). Worry about high ISO noise? Well do u usually shoot above ISO 800? I think with some NR, up to ISO 1600 is still OK unless u print BIG eg > 16 X 20. Remember u have lots of resolution to play with and u can afford some noise which frankly is not too ugly.

I know because I went through the whole cycle and u would be more lucky if u follow suit because A850 is a lot cheaper and as good if not better in IQ.

IF u shoot mainly portrait, get a CZ 85 OR 135 and u would enjoy the pair probably for the next 5 good years. Why it could be for such a long time? Because at > 24 MP, u'll get IQ better than negative (but not to slides - fuji ASA50 according to my own shooting of Hasy xPan)

Glad that besides the 2 big shoots (C & N), we still have other brands like Sony, Pentax, Olympus so that we don't have to be squeezed by the 2 champions.
 
While it would be great that one can get a good image right a way, with my experience, sometimes cropping does open up more opportunities. More MP would be useful in this way while I do not disagree if you do not print big enough, 12 or 24 MP does not make big difference especially if you look at it at a distance. Motion blurr, glass quality may off set the MP difference.
 
Hahaha, yes! Totally agree...
Whereas this forum continually fills with lookalike threads demanding "more pixels",

And whereas the "more pixels" threads typically repeat things that have already been written and eventually degrade into personal commentary rather than camera commentary,

Be it hereby resolved that anyone creating any new thread claiming to need more pixels must prior to starting the thread submit the following evidence: a NEF file from a 12mp Nikon DSLR that said person is using to establish their claim that they need more pixels. In addition to providing said image, prospective more pixel poster must also provide the following information: the number of prints they've made larger than 24" on the long axis in the past 12 months, and the number of prints larger than 24" on the long axis they expect to make in the coming 12 months.

Upon reviewing said material, the prospective more pixel poster will be either denied or accepted in his request for creating another new "I need more pixels" thread.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
Erm. Yeah. I know. Not really the point i was going for though. More of a generalization. Heh.

And the Volt does have an internal combustion engine. It just drives a generator instead of the wheels. It's used when the initial plug-in charge (good for about 40 miles) is used up to continue the flow of power for a much greater range. :)
in their pick up trucks. They also have V-8's in their Lexus line.

Chevrolet has an industry-leading and altering fuel cell vehicle, the Volt, nearing production, that doesn't have an internal combustion engine, a significant technological leap beyond Toyota's current hybrids, which combine electric and internal combustion engine (gasoline power) power units. The times, they are a changing.
 
The point remains that the camera you want (if you want high-MP) is out there. It's just made by a different manufacturer. If it's that big of a problem, go buy one. That's all.
Of course it is their thing, they're just late with it. The same tired old story we heard from Nikon apologists for years about full frame.
 
High ISO performance and high resolution may be in conflict with one another for reasons other than just the size of the photosites. Color separation is also an issue.
Right. The problem is not about just putting something in the camera - you need to first develop the technology to do it. Current state-of-the-art 12 MP FX is approximately two stops ahead of current 24 MP FX in terms of SNR (after averaging pixels corresponding to equal size area in print) at equal ISOs.
SNR is only one image quality parameter. Regardless of that, where are you getting two stops? http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=34033084 You claimed one stop for the D3/D700 over the D3x and cited DXO Mark, but going to their website contradicted your assertion.
This puts the 24 MP cameras in a position of being inferior for most uses apart from tripod-bound base ISO shooting of still subjects.
Funny thing is that the D3s is also inferior to itself until you put it on a tripod and use it at or near base ISO. Since this happens to be what I (and others) often do to optimize image quality, it stands to reason that for many the choice for optimum image quality is a different set of priorities than what is offered by Nikon (and yes, Canon too). As for subject needing to be still, that is not necessarily so.
What Nikon is likely to do is put the D3s sensor in the D700s body in six-to-ten months. Higher resolution in a compact body would be expected in the next generation in 2012.
Do you think Nikon can walk and chew gum at the same time? The only thing keeping Nikon from offering a D3x sensor in a D700 body (and calling it a "D700x") is Nikon. If Nikon continues to sit on this issue, they will end up two generations behind in the high MP niche and continue to lose sales to Canon and Sony.
Equally well we could be complaining Canon for not competing in color separation and producing cameras that generate lifeless high ISO images. Or for not having a working AF system that spreads out to a good part of the frame (Nikon offers that e.g. in the D300s).
Ironically, I don't have a Canon DSLR, I have a Sony A850 and a Nikon D300. Between them I'm getting everything I can reasonably ask for right now.
No one brand is going to produce everything for everybody.
Nikon could have. They already have a lot of fine cameras, they're just missing one right now (a "D700x") and the reasoning for not having it are perplexing and rather frustrating to some of us.
--
Anthony Beach
 
how often do you feel a shot taken with a D3 or D3s has been compromised because of resolution? Before the D3x was available, were you feeling a bit limited because of the 12MP limit? Now that you have a D3s and D3x, are there times when you use the D3s (maybe high ISO situations) where you wish you had that 24MP to print larger? Or have your large up-sized prints for the D3s been acceptable for pro use?

Since you make a portion of your living with large prints and in fact have publicly stated the D3x is used for everything under ISO 800 (or is it now 400?), I think your comments on the subject are pretty valid compared to a vast majority of us lucky enthusiasts who happen to own a pro-body.
 
Sometimes it seems DP review posters act like "post it, and it will come".

Nikon will release the camera when they are ready. The D700 is far beyond what 99.9% of amatuers need, especially at ISO's amatuers never even considered shooting with film.

Canon upset many Pro's when they released the 5D II, especially 1Ds III owners, especially so soon after it's release, and I was one of them.

Waiting gives the D3x owners time to get value out of the purchase which is good business practice. Nikon are not scouring these forums looking for advice on marketing strategy. They know what they're doing and learning from Canon's mistakes as well as their own, and will release when they are ready, not necessarily when the market is ready. The market was ready yesterday and always will be in today's environment.

This MP race really has to slow down, as it's a business that needs to be run on reliable products, and Nikon comes through over Canon in this regard, and is already indicatig they care more about quality of files at all ISO's instead of increasing MP's.

Be patient, I can bet a consumer 'x' camera won't make any difference to the quality of your life in reality, only in perception. If you want rushed-to-market cameras, buy Canon.
 
Canon upset many Pro's when they released the 5D II, especially 1Ds III owners, especially so soon after it's release, and I was one of them.

Waiting gives the D3x owners time to get value out of the purchase which is good business practice.
Too bad for both then that Sony came out with the A900 a year ago, and now the A850.
Nikon are not scouring these forums looking for advice on marketing strategy. They know what they're doing and learning from Canon's mistakes as well as their own, and will release when they are ready, not necessarily when the market is ready. The market was ready yesterday and always will be in today's environment.
You contradict yourself here. Nikon is pursuing what you consider a good marketing strategy by ignoring market demands. Perhaps you mean Nikon should continue to resist consumers and budget constrained enthusiasts who want D3x quality sensors to placate their more well-heeled enthusiasts and professional customers, and that is good because that is what you want.
Be patient, I can bet a consumer 'x' camera won't make any difference to the quality of your life in reality, only in perception.
Replacing my 11x14 and 12x18 prints with 16x20 and 20x30 prints has had a tangible effect for me. The prints on my walls have a lot more wow factor to them now.
If you want rushed-to-market cameras, buy Canon.
I bought an A850 and it doesn't feel "rushed-to-market" to me.
--
Anthony Beach
 

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