Just say no to XD memory!!!

Qwerty13 said:

Zaphod wrote:
The Digital Elph's are too small for my hands and I don't have big
hands. So making smaller cameras is not of interest to me.

Click to expand...

well, THAT is one very good motive for raging against XD cards - and further development of things in general...

has ever it occured to you that SOME people WOULD LIKE to see smaller cameras, WOULD LIKE to put their memory module into their cellphone to send images across the globe, WOULD LIKE to carry and transfer media files - of whatever nature - between devices we have today or that we will have tmrw, etc etc etc...

i'm sure you'll see that there will be lots more 'carrier devices' announced over the yrs - and XD has definitely potential to be at the forefront.

best rgds,

Nik Coolpix

http://www.pbase.com/nik

Nik Coolpix said:

Nik Coolpix said:

Raist3d wrote:
Bingo! It doesn't need to [be smaller].

Click to expand...

... says WHO??? just because YOU don't think cameras and mem
modules and whatever coming our way, need to be smaller or have
this or that interaction w communication devices - today or
tomorrow - is a pretty odd reason for bashing new technology!!!???

Click to expand...

No, I am not really bashing new technology, but I can see how it can be interpreted that way. I am just defending that you can do a lot with CF as Canon has proved.

Nik Coolpix said:

i mean, the solution to YOUR and the original poster's problem is
simply to buy products that are to YOUR like - biG or sm@ll. don't
go anywhere near future XD/XXD/XX? products at your local camera
store, if it makes you feel anguished - it's as simple as that,
really...

Click to expand...

Dude, this is very simple. Here's what I am replying to:

"CF is great for mid to large sized cameras, but doesn't translate well to really small devices."

And my point was: Canon has already proved you can do an ultra compact camera with CF, with good quality.

And that's it! There are no more hidden agendas or messages here.

This is my only point- that other manufacturers sure could do a lot with compact flash and if those who are adopting XD are not going to do something smaller than what Canon is already doing with CF then who cares.

That's all! This is not saying that you can't do a smaller camera with XD - just that you can do an incredibly good/small camera with CF. So to the other manufacturers: provide the incentive.

• Raist

Nik Coolpix said:

best rgds,

Nik Coolpix

http://www.pbase.com/nik

Click to expand...

Nik Coolpix said:

i'm sure you'll see that there will be lots more 'carrier devices'
announced over the yrs - and XD has definitely potential to be at
the forefront.

Click to expand...

That's all great in the name of future progress, but from the standpoint of today's consumer (me) this may not be so good - I have an Olympus camera and several SM cards; I also own a PDA with an SD and CF slots and appropriate cards, and a card reader for CF and Smartmedia cards, and even a CF adapter for Smartmedia to view photos on my PDA - quite an investment. Now Olympus introduce XD cards and start bringing out new cameras, like the D50 which uses XD - seems very interesting, but I have to change my cards, card reader, CF adapter... Why can't there be continuity?
--
Misha

misha said:

I agree that they did not launch these cards with the consumer
convenience in mind. I have been using Olympus cameras for the last
3-4 years, so I own a few SM cards. I also have some CF cards and a
Microdrive which I use in a pocket PC and thought I'd use in a new
digital camera (the Olympus E-series uses CF too). But now they
bring out that XD - so you can through away your old cards and
have to get a new reader, etc. I really don't see why.

--
Misha

Click to expand...

To make money of course! I don't care what media they use as long as they stick to one and it is reasonably priced. I myself will most likely never need anything bigger than 128mb, but it would be nice to have the option for say long trips. Sure i could carry around 3 or 4 128mb sm cards, but they are so thin i'm afraid i'll break it taking it out the camera. I didn't even bother to buy a reader just because of how flimsy the smart cards are. I like Olympus cameras because the image quality is good, but for the love of Pete stick to one kind of media and go with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Member said:

misha wrote:
That's all great in the name of future progress, but from the
standpoint of today's consumer (me) this may not be so good - I
have an Olympus camera and several SM cards; I also own a PDA with
an SD and CF slots and appropriate cards, and a card reader for CF
and Smartmedia cards, and even a CF adapter for Smartmedia to view
photos on my PDA - quite an investment. Now Olympus introduce XD
cards and start bringing out new cameras, like the D50 which uses
XD - seems very interesting, but I have to change my cards, card
reader, CF adapter... Why can't there be continuity?

Click to expand...

... and a yr ago i had a VOLVO. with it i had winter-tyres, extra windshield-wiper blades, spare bulbs and a skibox. now i drive a RENAULT - and believe it or not, but non of the extra equipment fits!!! Why, oh why, can't there be continuity?

... and a yr ago i had an LG vaccuumcleaner. with it i had package of ten refill-dustbags. now i vaccuum my house w a PHILIPS - and believe it or not, but i had to get myself NEW refills!!! Why, oh why, can't there be continuity?

... and a yr ago i shot my pics w an OLYMPUS C3030. w it i had two 128mb SM cards, an SM pccard adaptor, an AA-batterycharger, extra set of batteries. now i shoot w a CANON G2 - and believe it or not, but i had to start all over again on the auxillary front!!! Why, oh why, can't there be continuity?

c'mon, chill out!

just to put things into perspective,

Nik Coolpix

http://www.pbase.com/nik

The memory we use is dictated by the cameras we own and new ones we may buy. I don't understand why one would not want to see progress in the field of memory storage development. I think Olympus is doing us a great service by allowing the new memory cards to be used with the SM cards in the same camera. With your logic you should boycott color television and HDTV. Suit yourself but I think you may be a troll.

Morph said:

Corne said:

Can't say I completely disagree with you, but, well, I think you're
a troll.
Are you?

Click to expand...

Why bash this poster? I see nothing here that would indicate a
troll. His post is well put and it appears it was being tossed up
for comments which is what this forum is all about. Agree or
disagree but I see no reason to bash the poster after your one line
response.

First line of the forums rules: Be civil - anyone being abusive,
calling names or generally trying to stir up trouble will not be
tolerated. If you think someone is wrong it may be because they are
new, don't jump on them, think first. If you are repeatedly abusive
you will be banned from these forums.

Click to expand...

--
C700uz, E100rs
http://www.pbase.com/gene
Life is just a stage and we all have enough pictures to proof it!

Nik Coolpix said:

c'mon, chill out!

just to put things into perspective,

Click to expand...

I'm cool. We just have different perspectives

--
Misha

Nik Coolpix said:

Nik Coolpix said:

misha wrote:
... particularly if the price of XD cards is high initially.

Click to expand...

... don't know bout the rest of the world, but in SWEDEN the XD's
will be same or less as SM to purchase. i run a the photo'n'video
department in a store in STOCKHOLM, and i got our prices fr OLY and
FUJI last week. i pay a couple of euros - same in USD - less for a
64 mb XD when compared to same size SM, so we will probably sell at
same price or slightly less to consumer.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment earlier Nik -- just doing my end to hold up my end of the conversation

And yes, although some seem to be disbelieving of the xD pre-release information, it has been specifically mentioned that xD will be at about the same price point as SM.

http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/fujidc/xdcard/faqs.html

--
Tony
c2100, c3040, a200, b300, pt010
http://www.pbase.com/indigo68

Gene Miller said:

The memory we use is dictated by the cameras we own and new ones we
may buy. I don't understand why one would not want to see progress
in the field of memory storage development. I think Olympus is
doing us a great service by allowing the new memory cards to be
used with the SM cards in the same camera. With your logic you
should boycott color television and HDTV. Suit yourself but I think
you may be a troll.

Click to expand...

Gene,

Color TV was an improvement to b/w TV because most people see the world in color, therefore TV should look more like the world. HDTV is an improvmement in the sharpness of the image. Since what we see with our eyes is generally sharper than TV. HDTV is better because it gives a sharper more color accurate view, closer to what the eye really sees. Just as the E-20 has higher res than the E-10, that is another improvement.

Now that we have established what an IMPROVEMENT actually is, let's talk about camera memory.

XD is better because:
it is smaller
it has a lower power drain
it might be faster?
it puts more money in the pockets of Fuji and Olympus

CF is better because:
it's cheaper
it has greater capacities
it is compatable with more cameras than any other type of memory
it is not so huge that you'll break your shoulder carrying them
it is fast enough for the average user and most pro's

If XD had equal capacities TODAY (or even 256) at near the same price as CF cards, I would not be so down on it. It is not an improvement. It's different and has a very samll potential to be better. So small, it's worth ignoring.

Now pay your toll and answer me these questions 3!

What's is your name?

What is your quest?

What is the flight velocity of a swallow?

TonyChang said:

Put an xD card in a CF adapter and you essentially have an
expensive CF card. The adapter must have the CF controller chip
necessary to interface with the xD card (which now becomes a
glorified memory chip). At that point, you'll have paid for the CF
adapter card plus your purportedly overpriced xD card.

Click to expand...

My thought was that if you put an XD card into a CF adapter, you then have an expensive CF card with less power drain. Is that worth the added cost or can you just the the money to buy more batteries?

why are you so worked up about XD cards? just stay away fr products that use them if the thought of them annoys you. me, i'm not too keen on shirts w button-down collars, so therefore i buy shirts without buttons in the collar. i have no urge, however, to raise a campaign against button-down style. it would simply feel somewhat futile...

Nik Coolpix

http://www.pbase.com/nik

Nik Coolpix said:

well, THAT is one very good motive for raging against XD cards -
and further development of things in general...
has ever it occured to you that SOME people WOULD LIKE to see
smaller cameras, WOULD LIKE to put their memory module into their
cellphone to send images across the globe, WOULD LIKE to carry and
transfer media files - of whatever nature - between devices we have
today or that we will have tmrw, etc etc etc...
i'm sure you'll see that there will be lots more 'carrier devices'
announced over the yrs - and XD has definitely potential to be at
the forefront.

best rgds,

Nik Coolpix

Click to expand...

Your screen name is Coolpix so you are obviously not using a small camera. Have you ever touch the buttons on an Elph or one of the smaller cameras? Who can use them? Children? Pre teens?

How is XD really an improvement? Are you planning to get rid of your Nikon Coolpix and CF cards and buy a new Fuji or Olympus?

didn't think so..

Qwerty13 said:

Zaphod wrote:
Your screen name is Coolpix so you are obviously not using a small
camera. Have you ever touch the buttons on an Elph or one of the
smaller cameras? Who can use them? Children? Pre teens?
How is XD really an improvement? Are you planning to get rid of
your Nikon Coolpix and CF cards and buy a new Fuji or Olympus?
didn't think so...

Click to expand...

1) no, i am not the owner of a COOLPIX.

2) yes, i press the buttons - without a jewel screwdriver, mind you - of small cameras about five days a week when i demo them in store.

3) last week i think we sold about 25 or so ELPHs/IXUSes at my store, so i think that you will have to accept that NOT EVERYONE have the same requests as yourself when buying a camera.

4) this weekend i used a BIG, BULKY LEICA DIGILUX 1 that utilizes SMALL, TINY SD cards. afterwards i inserted the SD card into my cellphone - because of the 'bulkiness' of CFs you won't ever come across new cellphones etc w CF compatibility - and emailed them to my sister. POINT IS - the advantages of a small card is not necessarily that the device taking the pics need to be small, BUT that it opens up NEW possibilities w interaction w auxillaries. i believe there's a word for that... OH YES, M U L T I M E D I A !

5) no plans to buy any camera at the moment since i use the ones in store. BUT - surprise, surprise - i have been looking at a SMALL, COOL 'carry-everywhere' camera - namely, the CP2500 so i just might ending up buying a C O M P A C T F L A S H card. hideous thought!!!

6) try facing the fact that there's a big world out there, and that everybody's taste and demands are different. nothing to get worked up about...

best rgds,

Nik Coolpix

http://www.pbase.com/nik

TonyChang said:

You can't compare a physical film format to memory devices -- the
size of the memory's form factor has absolutely nothing to do with
its image quality. The name of the game with memory is faster
speed and higher capacity -- a smaller format makes it more
adaptable to smaller devices, be they cameras, mobile phones, PDAs,
MP3 players or computers.

Click to expand...

Yes I can compare physical film format to memory devices! How do you make a smaller camera? You make smaller film. The same applies in digital. The smallest digital cameras today use SD cards. SD cards are smaller than CF and SM thus they made the smaller cameras. Just as APS film allowed them to make smaller film cameras.

Nik Coolpix said:

why are you so worked up about XD cards? just stay away fr products
that use them if the thought of them annoys you. me, i'm not too
keen on shirts w button-down collars, so therefore i buy shirts
without buttons in the collar. i have no urge, however, to raise a
campaign against button-down style. it would simply feel somewhat
futile...

Nik Coolpix

http://www.pbase.com/nik

Click to expand...

I am not worked up. I just find it a bit annoying that they kep trying to switch the standard and they keep failing. Like SM, MMC, the stick (soon to be gone), full size PCMCIA is getting rare, etc.

You can't compare shirts to memory because while buttoned shirts might be uncomfortable to you, they are still compatable to your body even if you upgrade your body to Windows XP.

XD cards are not uncomfortable, they are incompatable. If I can stop a few people from buying an XD camera today, that can help bring the XD cards to oblivion faster than they will get there on there own. Plus it will save you time and money when you sell your coolpix and CF's, buy an Olympus, and end up buying another CF camera sometime in the future because XD's are gone.

Nik Coolpix said:

Nik Coolpix said:

Zaphod wrote:
Your screen name is Coolpix so you are obviously not using a small
camera. Have you ever touch the buttons on an Elph or one of the
smaller cameras? Who can use them? Children? Pre teens?
How is XD really an improvement? Are you planning to get rid of
your Nikon Coolpix and CF cards and buy a new Fuji or Olympus?
didn't think so...

Click to expand...

1) no, i am not the owner of a COOLPIX.
2) yes, i press the buttons - without a jewel screwdriver, mind you

• of small cameras about five days a week when i demo them in store.

3) last week i think we sold about 25 or so ELPHs/IXUSes at my
store, so i think that you will have to accept that NOT EVERYONE
have the same requests as yourself when buying a camera.
4) this weekend i used a BIG, BULKY LEICA DIGILUX 1 that utilizes
SMALL, TINY SD cards. afterwards i inserted the SD card into my
cellphone - because of the 'bulkiness' of CFs you won't ever come
across new cellphones etc w CF compatibility - and emailed them to
my sister. POINT IS - the advantages of a small card is not
necessarily that the device taking the pics need to be small, BUT
that it opens up NEW possibilities w interaction w auxillaries. i
believe there's a word for that... OH YES, M U L T I M E D I A !
5) no plans to buy any camera at the moment since i use the ones in
store. BUT - surprise, surprise - i have been looking at a SMALL,
COOL 'carry-everywhere' camera - namely, the CP2500 so i just might
ending up buying a C O M P A C T F L A S H card. hideous thought!!!
6) try facing the fact that there's a big world out there, and that
everybody's taste and demands are different. nothing to get worked
up about...

best rgds,

Nik Coolpix

http://www.pbase.com/nik

Click to expand...

a few minutes ago you said you had a Canon G2. What's the real story?

Nik,

Since you work in a store, wouldn't it be easier to sell one type of memory rather than trying to remember the Olympus D-600 can take an 8mb unless you mailed it into Olympus for the upgrade and now it can take a 16mb. The E-10 can take SM, CF and Mircodrives but Olympus doesn't recommend the Microdrive and the 4040 can take up to 128mb.max. Now the 5050....

hmmmm?

Qwerty13 said:

Zaphod wrote:
a few minutes ago you said you had a Canon G2. What's the real story?

Click to expand...

we do sell G2s in the store so i USE the G2 when i fell like doing it. don't pay too much attention to what camera i use. rather face reality - you cannot dictate what is the right choice camera, media etc for everybodyelse. that priviledge is NOBODY's. you don't like XD for reason that are yours - FINE, don't go anywhere near XD related products. but stop patronizing!

Nik Coolpix

http://www.pbase.com/nik

Zaphod said:

TonyChang said:

Put an xD card in a CF adapter and you essentially have an
expensive CF card. The adapter must have the CF controller chip
necessary to interface with the xD card (which now becomes a
glorified memory chip). At that point, you'll have paid for the CF
adapter card plus your purportedly overpriced xD card.

Click to expand...

My thought was that if you put an XD card into a CF adapter, you
then have an expensive CF card with less power drain. Is that worth
the added cost or can you just the the money to buy more batteries?

Click to expand...

The CF spec requires a certain voltage and current for the card to function properly -- since the adapter has to meet that spec, I don't think it would matter what the memory card sitting in the adapter was, be it xD, SD, MS or SM...

The electrical spec comparison with CF and xD yielded a 6:1 ratio in terms of mmW (micromilliwatts?) of power required. In your typical digicam, the components that drain the most juice from your batteries are writing & reading the memory card, charging the flash, and the color LCD display. Hard to reduce the other two, so reducing the mmW for the memory card seems like a logical enough place to start.

http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/fujidc/xdcard/

--
Tony
c2100, c3040, a200, b300, pt010
http://www.pbase.com/indigo68

TonyChang said:

And yes, although some seem to be disbelieving of the xD
pre-release information, it has been specifically mentioned that xD
will be at about the same price point as SM.

http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/fujidc/xdcard/faqs.html

--
Tony
c2100, c3040, a200, b300, pt010
http://www.pbase.com/indigo68

Click to expand...

XD is a few dollars higher than SM and SM is a few dollars higher than CF. When Sony lowered the prices on the stick to compete with CF, Sandisk responded by lowering their prices on CF.

Considering the past claims for all memory systems, I take the attitude of believe it when I see it.