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E-20P How bad is jaggies when action shooting ??

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Zorpie

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I'm a newcomer to the site - just having bought a new Oly E-20P. I had the E-10 and upgraded primarily for the higher shutter speeds - but now I'm not so sure. Thing is, if I am forced to use the PS mode (for a faster than 1/640 sec shutter speed) how bad (overall) are the jaggies ?? Any E-20P users out there that use the camera for action photography - with any comments ?? I'd be grateful. It would be a shame if Olympus had completely compromised the higher shutter speeds for the quality of the image. I'd be relieved if someone tells me that it isn't - that bad !! Or maybe - it is ??
--
Art, is a lie !!
 
The jaggies are not a problem as long as you use 1280 x 960 as your resolution in PS mode. PS mode is not an answer for the higher resolutions. Don't even try it.

Still, results are excellent. This is still adequate resolution for 4 x 6 prints, and great for web publishing. An added benefit is the buffer will hold 7 shots and allow a fast sequence.
 
Here is one example. My first try with PS mode. I just hope the framing would have been better in this one (1280x960, 1/800s, F2.8, ISO 80).


BPatrick said:
The jaggies are not a problem as long as you use 1280 x 960 as your
resolution in PS mode. PS mode is not an answer for the higher
resolutions. Don't even try it.

Still, results are excellent. This is still adequate resolution for
4 x 6 prints, and great for web publishing. An added benefit is the
buffer will hold 7 shots and allow a fast sequence.
Click to expand...
--
Juha Koskela
 
I use the camera for the sport of cycling and no probs with jaggies shooting in HQ mode. Quality is very good (which makes it well suited to pro work, especially studio or not so fast action) and the quality is even better in tiff and raw. -- shame the autofocus is not up to the job, manual focus is fiddly (imho) and that I'm told there is no way of using an external battery pack for and the batteries (non-lithim) don't last very long.

If I had known all this I would have gone for the Fuji, Nikon or Canon SLRs which are more expensive but seem better suited.

Larry
Zorpie said:
I'm a newcomer to the site - just having bought a new Oly E-20P. I
had the E-10 and upgraded primarily for the higher shutter speeds -
but now I'm not so sure. Thing is, if I am forced to use the PS
mode (for a faster than 1/640 sec shutter speed) how bad (overall)
are the jaggies ?? Any E-20P users out there that use the camera
for action photography - with any comments ?? I'd be grateful. It
would be a shame if Olympus had completely compromised the higher
shutter speeds for the quality of the image. I'd be relieved if
someone tells me that it isn't - that bad !! Or maybe - it is ??
--
Art, is a lie !!
Click to expand...
 
Larry Hickmott said:
I use the camera for the sport of cycling and no probs with jaggies
shooting in HQ mode. Quality is very good (which makes it well
suited to pro work, especially studio or not so fast action) and
the quality is even better in tiff and raw. -- shame the autofocus
is not up to the job, manual focus is fiddly (imho) and that I'm
told there is no way of using an external battery pack for and the
batteries (non-lithim) don't last very long.

If I had known all this I would have gone for the Fuji, Nikon or
Canon SLRs which are more expensive but seem better suited.

Larry
Click to expand...
Few corrections.. There is an external battery (Olympus lipo grip) which lasts for ever. I just use normal AA rechargeables which last for about 200 shots. I have preview always on and while I was travelling last week I usually got around 250 shots / charge. I'm using 1600 mAh batteries and there are also 1800 mAhs available. I think that's quite good actually. Please note that for example Canon doesn't use standard AA's. Standard AA rechargeables are so cheap nowadays.

About the focus. I've found out that auto focus works extremely well. When in low light there are some issues about it (you just have to learn how to focus in low light). From what I've heard about other cameras I think E-xx focuses even better in low light than most digital cameras. I agree about the manual focus. It's not that easy to use (as it's sometimes hard to tell if it is actually focused or not).

--
Juha Koskela
 
Larry

You can also purchase a mini Quantum battery which will work perfectly with the E20 or E10, or any Oly cameras for that matter

Regards

Hugh
 
Larry Hickmott said:
I use the camera for the sport of cycling and no probs with jaggies
shooting in HQ mode. Quality is very good (which makes it well
suited to pro work, especially studio or not so fast action) and
the quality is even better in tiff and raw. -- shame the autofocus
is not up to the job, manual focus is fiddly (imho) and that I'm
told there is no way of using an external battery pack for and the
batteries (non-lithim) don't last very long.

If I had known all this I would have gone for the Fuji, Nikon or
Canon SLRs which are more expensive but seem better suited.
Click to expand...
Some lack of info evidenced by your post. First, you mention using "HQ mode", but you should be aware that this tells us nothing about your camera's resolution, since the E-xx camera gives you freedom to assign any resolution to that quality designation. As to tiff and Raw: are you referring to shooting with PS mode?

Concerning manual focus being "fiddly", while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, most experienced photographers (i.e., ones who have previous experience with manual focusing) find the E-xx manual focus to be precise and accurate. However some of these cameras do have a well-documented defect--namely misadjusted manual focus (search this forum for lots of info on that). This defect causes the manual focus to be consistently inaccurate but it can be corrected by sending to Oly for service. Perhaps your camera suffers from this?

Finally the external battery pack. What about the famed LiPo battery grip? It's pricey, but a popular, seemingly inexhausable source of power. Furthermore a very inexpensive Li-ion battery pack is being used with the E-xx, in addition to a variety of homemade external packs (SLA and other types).
Phil
 
Phil Rose said:
Some lack of info evidenced by your post. First, you mention using
"HQ mode", but you should be aware that this tells us nothing
Click to expand...
HQ mode on the default resolution...2560 x 1920. Fine for me when printing A4 prints -- but then quality is subjective but I see no hint of jaggies -- and if we want to get super critical then there we also need to consider subject matter and so on but for what I do, sports and people, the quality of images is fine. I shoot mainly in IS mode as I don't need the high speeds of PS mode. Not for comon use anyway.
Phil Rose said:
Concerning manual focus being "fiddly", while you are certainly
entitled to your opinion, most experienced photographers (i.e.,
ones who have previous experience with manual focusing) find the
E-xx manual focus to be precise and accurate.
Click to expand...
Manual focus .. Having been a photographer since 1983 I guess I can consider myself expereinced and I find the manual focus no where near as nice to use as The Nikon D100 which I am testing. As for it being faulty, I would guess that if it was, I would never get a focused image which I can but not for sports work, I just don't find it good for that. Stills is another story.
Phil Rose said:
Finally the external battery pack. What about the famed LiPo
battery grip? It's pricey, but a popular, seemingly inexhausable
Click to expand...
My aplogoies--I asked here in the UK (Jessops in Milton Keynmes where i bought the camera from) and was told that there was only the AA batteries or power from the AC connection. I will check out the LiPo grip -- I have only had the camera for a few months and not seen this mentioned in magazine reviews or been told about it in the shops I go to. I will have a look because although I have had 200 images from a set of Nmh 1700 rechargables, when you satrt using the flash, of course this goes down real quick.

Larry
 
Larry Hickmott said:
Phil Rose said:
Finally the external battery pack. What about the famed LiPo
battery grip? It's pricey, but a popular, seemingly inexhausable
Click to expand...
My aplogoies--I asked here in the UK (Jessops in Milton Keynmes
where i bought the camera from) and was told that there was only
the AA batteries or power from the AC connection. I will check out
the LiPo grip -- I have only had the camera for a few months and
not seen this mentioned in magazine reviews or been told about it
in the shops I go to. I will have a look because although I have
had 200 images from a set of Nmh 1700 rechargables, when you satrt
using the flash, of course this goes down real quick.

Larry
Click to expand...
Hi Larry

Have you tried Warehouse Express for the LiPo grip in the UK?

http://www.warehouseexpress.com

--
R.S.H.
 
Thanks to all you guys who responded to the question of vertical resolution and the 'jaggies' whilst using PS mode. I was very impressed with the shot of the bird of prey !! I think what I have to do now is get out and experiment with my new E-20P. Thanks again - it is good to know that there are others using PS mode for action shots without a noticeable degradation of the image - I will restrict myself to HQ resolution in PS mode just to be sure !! Some of the reviews I have read on the E-20 were very critical of the lower vertical resolution in PS mode. One other question - how do I tell what firmware is installed in my new E-20P and then - what is the latest version available ?? I take it that the camera has to go to Olympus for any upgrade and that the firmware cannot be downloaded and installed by the user ??

--
Art, is a lie !!
 
Zorpie!!

I have not really used PS mode on my E-20N but may some day. A few things you should note.

PS mode is 2.5 MegaPel so don't expect to print as large as with normal mode.

PS mode scans ever other line retrieving only half of the CCD information. The missing data causes the geometry to be odd also. Because you record every other line the camera resolution becomes 2560x960 half the resolution is gone along with square pixels.

I believe the camera must interpolate and generate the missing scan lines so one does not get a squashed distorted image. This process is what causes the jaggies printed small they will not be so noticeable large you will see them. The image will be 2560x1920 half is fugged..

--
JJMack
 
Hi JJMack !!

Thanks for the comments. I had worked out that the CCD was only half scanned (vertically) in PS mode - it's an electronic shutter - not the mechanical shutter used in IS mode - is that right ? So why did Olympus do it this way and why cannot the whole CCD be scanned at the higher shutter speeds ?? Other digital SLRs offer higher speeds than 1/640th of a second on higher resolution CCDs. So what is the problem with the E-20 ?? It seems to me that Olympus traded off vertical resolution for higher speeds. It seems a bit silly to me for a camera like this to be limited in such a way. I want to cover action with the highest possible resolution. There was a comment earlier that HQ resolution will cover PS mode up to an A4 print without discernable loss of vertical resolution. I suppose it depends on the subject material. I need to get out and try my E-20P and find out for myself I guess !! Thanks again for your comments.
JJMACK said:
Zorpie!!

I have not really used PS mode on my E-20N but may some day. A few
things you should note.

PS mode is 2.5 MegaPel so don't expect to print as large as with
normal mode.

PS mode scans ever other line retrieving only half of the CCD
information. The missing data causes the geometry to be odd also.
Because you record every other line the camera resolution becomes
2560x960 half the resolution is gone along with square pixels.

I believe the camera must interpolate and generate the missing scan
lines so one does not get a squashed distorted image. This process
is what causes the jaggies printed small they will not be so
noticeable large you will see them. The image will be 2560x1920
half is fugged..

--
JJMack
Click to expand...
 
Just to say that I took my OLY-E20P back and upgraded to a Nikon D100. The E-20P is a solid performer but not at shutter speeds of greater than 1/640th of a second. PS mode is a bit of a joke and why Olympus bothered with it - I really do not know. It was pointless me 'upgrading' from an E-10. Effectively - all I got - was 25% more resolution on the CCD for the extra money I paid.
Zorpie said:
I'm a newcomer to the site - just having bought a new Oly E-20P. I
had the E-10 and upgraded primarily for the higher shutter speeds -
but now I'm not so sure. Thing is, if I am forced to use the PS
mode (for a faster than 1/640 sec shutter speed) how bad (overall)
are the jaggies ?? Any E-20P users out there that use the camera
for action photography - with any comments ?? I'd be grateful. It
would be a shame if Olympus had completely compromised the higher
shutter speeds for the quality of the image. I'd be relieved if
someone tells me that it isn't - that bad !! Or maybe - it is ??
--
Art, is a lie !!
Click to expand...
 
Just curious...do you have any examples from the E-20 PS mode that you found unacceptable?

The resulting resolution using PS mode is 1792 x 1344, which would take the E-20 all the way down to the resolution of the D1H ( 2.5MB). That would still be adequate for 8x10's for web, newspaper photos, or newsletters, and more than enough for smaller photos. Nikon owners have reported many good things about the D1H as a sports camera at that resolution.

If there is a problem, it can't be due to the interpolation, because the Fuji S1 folks have also been claiming glowing results at 6M through interpolation from a 3M camera for a couple of years.

Please share the problem photos with us.

Regards,
Bob
Zorpie said:
I'm a newcomer to the site - just having bought a new Oly E-20P. I
had the E-10 and upgraded primarily for the higher shutter speeds -
but now I'm not so sure. Thing is, if I am forced to use the PS
mode (for a faster than 1/640 sec shutter speed) how bad (overall)
are the jaggies ?? Any E-20P users out there that use the camera
for action photography - with any comments ?? I'd be grateful. It
would be a shame if Olympus had completely compromised the higher
shutter speeds for the quality of the image. I'd be relieved if
someone tells me that it isn't - that bad !! Or maybe - it is ??
--
Art, is a lie !!
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/sayhibob
[email protected]

E-10 & E-20 w/Lipo's, TCON 300, 14B, WCON, FL40, Digi-slave Pro (Vivitar 285), Promaster mini-strobe, Hensel Studio lights, Minolta IV-F Flashmeter
 
SayHiBob,

Look at the comments from JJMack above. The fact is that the vertical geometery is distorted because every other CCD line is missed by the scan - thus any digonal lines in shot - contain the jaggies. I cannot demonstrate because I no longer have the E-20 but there are plenty of photos showing the effect on these threads if you look around !!
Sayhibob said:
The resulting resolution using PS mode is 1792 x 1344, which would
take the E-20 all the way down to the resolution of the D1H
( 2.5MB). That would still be adequate for 8x10's for web,
newspaper photos, or newsletters, and more than enough for smaller
photos. Nikon owners have reported many good things about the D1H
as a sports camera at that resolution.

If there is a problem, it can't be due to the interpolation,
because the Fuji S1 folks have also been claiming glowing results
at 6M through interpolation from a 3M camera for a couple of years.

Please share the problem photos with us.

Regards,
Bob
Zorpie said:
I'm a newcomer to the site - just having bought a new Oly E-20P. I
had the E-10 and upgraded primarily for the higher shutter speeds -
but now I'm not so sure. Thing is, if I am forced to use the PS
mode (for a faster than 1/640 sec shutter speed) how bad (overall)
are the jaggies ?? Any E-20P users out there that use the camera
for action photography - with any comments ?? I'd be grateful. It
would be a shame if Olympus had completely compromised the higher
shutter speeds for the quality of the image. I'd be relieved if
someone tells me that it isn't - that bad !! Or maybe - it is ??
--
Art, is a lie !!
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/sayhibob
[email protected]
E-10 & E-20 w/Lipo's, TCON 300, 14B, WCON, FL40, Digi-slave Pro
(Vivitar 285), Promaster mini-strobe, Hensel Studio lights, Minolta
IV-F Flashmeter
Click to expand...
 
The reason I was asking is that your original post piqued my interest, since I had never tried PS mode. I had read some posts explaining the theoretical basis for it being lousey, and I took them at face value. After seeing that you got rid of your E-10, I was interested if, in fact, you found the actual pictures unacceptable.

I decided to try some PS test shots today at my grandsons' games just to see if it was as bad as some have suggested. These shots are not meant to be a scientific or highly technical test, but just a test of PS mode's practical use, suitable for Web, newsprint, newsletters, brochures, etc. Regular post-shot treatment has been applied (Auto Color and Unsharp Mask- both 50% faded). They are all uncropped but pixel downsized to be 5" long in the longest dimension at 150 pixels/inch (which means that they will be twice that size on most monitors.) They were all saved from Photoshop at %50% JPG quality to further reduce file size.

Those forum members who regularly shoot for National Geographic magazine will, of course, need much higher final resolution...







I was pleasantly surprised.

Regards,
Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/sayhibob
[email protected]

E-10 & E-20 w/Lipo's, TCON 300, 14B, WCON, FL40, Digi-slave Pro (Vivitar 285), Promaster mini-strobe, Hensel Studio lights, Minolta IV-F Flashmeter
 
The pictures are very good - you sound pleased !! But I wanted full CCD resolution right through the full range of shutter speeds - every other DSLR offers that. I had it with my E-10 but not with the E-20. I didn't find this out until after I had purchased the camera. (I should have come on here and read the threads !!) However, I do a lot of action work and need the higher shutter speeds with full resolution. The E-20 is a great camera - and a superb performer up to 1/640th of a second shutter speed. But Olympus didn't do themselves a favour by offering higher shutter speeds than this by slashing the CCD resolution of the E-20 in half to achieve it. A lot of E-20 users don't (and won't) use PS mode because of this shortcoming. However, now you have tried it - you might well be happy with the end result and use it again. It all depends on what you use the images for I guess. Good shooting with your E-20 !!
Sayhibob said:
The reason I was asking is that your original post piqued my
interest, since I had never tried PS mode. I had read some posts
explaining the theoretical basis for it being lousey, and I took
them at face value. After seeing that you got rid of your E-10, I
was interested if, in fact, you found the actual pictures
unacceptable.

I decided to try some PS test shots today at my grandsons' games
just to see if it was as bad as some have suggested. These shots
are not meant to be a scientific or highly technical test, but just
a test of PS mode's practical use, suitable for Web, newsprint,
newsletters, brochures, etc. Regular post-shot treatment has been
applied (Auto Color and Unsharp Mask- both 50% faded). They are
all uncropped but pixel downsized to be 5" long in the longest
dimension at 150 pixels/inch (which means that they will be twice
that size on most monitors.) They were all saved from Photoshop at
%50% JPG quality to further reduce file size.

Those forum members who regularly shoot for National Geographic
magazine will, of course, need much higher final resolution...







I was pleasantly surprised.

Regards,
Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/sayhibob
[email protected]
E-10 & E-20 w/Lipo's, TCON 300, 14B, WCON, FL40, Digi-slave Pro
(Vivitar 285), Promaster mini-strobe, Hensel Studio lights, Minolta
IV-F Flashmeter
Click to expand...
 
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