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Sony Foveon-like sensor

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If Sony can pull this off, Sigma will have a very tough time staying in the camera business.
--
--Britton
My Gear: Sigma DP1, Sigma SD14
Sigma Lenses:
24-70mm F2.8 IF EX DG HSM | APO 70-200mm F2.8 II EX DG MACRO HSM
18-200mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS | 70mm F2.8 EX DG Macro
17-35mm F2.8-4 EX DG HSM

http://photo.brittonrobbins.com/
 
This was going to happen sooner or later. Once Sony is able to get around Foveon patents and improve low light performance of such a sensor, they will be able to sell their sensor to all manufacturers. Sigma obviously has only a small window of time to build better cameras around their superb sensor and great lenses.
 
This could be a game changer.

The patent is from 2009, so they are on to something.

Better hurry up.
 
In my very brief scan of the document, I can't begin to intelligently speculate as to whether the application teaches new art or repeats prior art. With Sony's army (no doubt) of very capable patent attorneys, I doubt they would enter into it friviously unless they were very certain and well informed that this approach is not likely to infringe Sigma/Foveon patents. On the other hand, no less than Kodak fell into that trap trying to invent an alternative to Polaroid's integral film in the 1970s, and lost.

It will indeed be interesting to see if this (December 10, 2009) patent (if I read correctly) holds up. Also interesting to see if Sigma/Foveon has any substantial enhancements of their technology in the works. While they may indeed be David to Sony's Goliath, I have never bought into the assumption that naivete characterizes their technical and business strategies.

Kind regards,
--
Ed_S
http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
 
a major player acknowledging that the foveon sensor is superb technology and wanting to be included in the possible change to this style of sensor.

I agree that Sigma will have to step up their quality control if nothing else. I'd be disappointed to see them get into difficulties for lack of forsight (or inability because of financial burden).

Sigma/Foveon has been the leader in this technology and my concern is that if the big manufacturers take over, it will simply lead to the same kind of "marketing ploys" being used to ply the bayer products. (I still find the bayer products preferable at this time when I'm shooting fast and furious, just capturing a moment)

--
http://www.normhamilton.ca
http://www.yukonphotographers.com/Norm-Hamilton
Norm Hamilton
'Yukon. A special place in Northern Canada'
Ya gotta come and see!
 
I can't just easily read so much 'legal' text, but from what I can understand, then main point of invention is using "vertical gate electrode" - to minimize readout noise and channel crosstalk. Using three layers is not exactly an invention.

I don't know, what exactly is patented by Foveon. I'm not sure that 3-layer structure itself could be patented at all - it is probably some kind of technical solution. And Sony patents another kind of technial solution.

That of course doesn't exclude possible use of some Foveon patents in some Sony future sensors.

--
Arvo
Sigma/Foveon information collection and little gallery:
http://www.stv.ee/~donq/sigma.htm
http://www.stv.ee/~donq/images.htm
 
very refreshing - Sigma´s attitude totally sucks and I don´t have time to wait all my life to complex, fast and usable camera with Foveon
 
petr marek said:
very refreshing - Sigma´s attitude totally sucks and I don´t have time to wait all my life to complex, fast and usable camera with Foveon
Click to expand...
To each his/her own opinion I suppose. But I continue to be challenged by blanket statements disparaging Sigma's efforts to bring a new technology into a tough market dominated by established players. It's easy of course to find fault - and sometimes rightly so. But without Foveon and Sigma to this point there would be CFA and the isolated 3CCD or other non-mainstream technology. Just kind of rankles me (and I have no skin in the game beyond the few thousand $$$US I've invested in Sigma SLRs and lenses - no insider status) when the only company even making an effort is dismissed for its imperfections. But that's me.

Best,
--
Ed_S
http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
 
This sound fine,but personally i will wait for sony to announce anything on this before i open a champagebootle!
it to early to celebrate,many patents are not realized in real life

but i hope this will come to something ,would be really great to see a new 3 layer sensor with high iso specs
 
My "loyality" is to the Foveon chip, not to Sigma itelf. If any other company can bring out a better chip and camera combination then I'm all for it. But, as others have already pointed, I'll believe it when I see it.
 
This is strange... both diagrams - including the values - are identical:

Foveon:



Sony:



I hope Sigma didn't sell the Foveon patent...
 
Chris Rijk said:
xthfloor said:
This is strange... both diagrams - including the values - are identical:
Click to expand...
The values come from the underlying physics of silicon - ie there's no alternatives, AFAIK.
Click to expand...
No, but the lack of alternatives doesn't invalidate the Foveon patent on the combination of these layers as drawn, so maybe Sony are expecting to pay royalties on that part (?).

(IANAL and purely speculating, obviously ;) )
 
I think I have a fair comprehension of normal uses of the English language (and the odd and mostly irrelevant Latin phrase), but a quick and at any length really insightful read of the techlegalese in the application for me is beyond the price of admission. The two diagrams do bear a striking resemblance (the basic solid state physics notwithstanding). Short of putting the basic Foveon patent side by side with this application (and even then not claiming to be able to decipher either to the degree required to comment expertly) it seemed to me that the Sony application verbiage was claiming some innovations in reading and processing the layer by layer data to improve inter alia the signal to noise ratios. Some of the other arguments (amusingly to me at least) seemed to make similar claims to what Foveon enthusiasts have claimed for benefits vs. CFA chips.

Fascinating,
--
Ed_S
http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
 
xthfloor said:
I hope Sigma didn't sell the Foveon patent...
Click to expand...
on the contrary let us hope that some major player can make it much better... Sony, Canon, whatever...

--

 
The Sony figures shown in the post above are references to prior art (read the end of the patent where the figure legend is listed). In other words, they look like Foveon's because they are Foveon.

I scanned through this but I'm not enough of an expert to know if it infringes or if it's technically feasible. Eric Fossum knows more about this, and he's posed his comments here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=33986807

--
Jim
 
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