When will Canon focus on IQ instead of MP!?

The point they are making is the Canon is marketing to consumers who don't only think the measure of IQ is the number of pixels and that they a ignoring the fact the photographers don't want to substitute IQ for pixels.

Here is a link to the article.

http://www.digitalphotopro.com/gear/imaging-tech/megapixels-how-much-is-enough.html
Digital Photo Pro magazine. This is the second article I have seen where without actually naming anyone they contend that adding more pixels at the sake of IQ is marketing to the masses.
Who would you expect large companies to market to - one legged dwarfs?

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-paul
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http://www.specialteeweddings.com
 
If that were the case, then Canon would only produce 1.6x and FF sensors, like Nikon and Sony. 1.6x is cheaper to produce than 1.3x, isn't it? And then you'd have economies of scale that are lacking when producing a sensor size for one camera model. It takes less processing power to push a 1.3x sensor along to 10fps than it does a FF sensor.
Processing power is affected by megapixel count not by sensor size, IOW if 1D4 was a 16MP FF camera, it wouldn't need any extra processing power to maintain its 10fps, so the frame rate is not the reason why Canon decided to stick to APS-H.
I woujld think it would be affected by pixel size , also. Larger pixels, more information, just like more pixels equal more information.
Larger pixels means more photons, but not more information. What determines the information from each pixels is the resolution of the ADC. To the best of my knowledge both Nikon and Canon uses 14-bit ADC's, so the information/pixel ratio is the same.
 
You could put in a super accurate 24-bit ADC, and still not have any better signal resolution.

It also depends on the "depth" of the electron well (so you can count more photons). No point in being able to measure lots of electrons if there aren't enough to count to begin with.

So the S90 is probably fine with its 12-bit ADC, whereas the 5D II can definitely make good use of its 14-bit one.
 
I read that Sony makes Nikon's sensors under Nikon's supervision. So they're not the same sensors, and they must have NDA agreements and stuff to prevent Sony from utilizing Nikon's technological innovations.

Of course, I'm not saying Sony should steal that technology (or am I? :P ), but it's sort of ironic that one can manufacture someone else's sensors, while not having sensors of their own that are as good.
Not ironic at all. But if I were Nikon, I'd be supervising very closely! ;-) There's a lot of that sort of deal out there, even you're favourite micro brew might be made by one of the giants, utilizing their excess capacity.
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Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
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'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart
 
"There’s no question that more megapixels lead to digital photos with improved detail and image quality. "

at its conclusion. With every camera generation, we have seen:

1) Better Color
2) Better color depth
3) More detail (MegaPixels)
4) Lower Noise
5) Better DR.

I go back and look at my old 1D and compare it to the 1D Mk III IQ and the old 1D looks almost sad.

So expect the "war" to continue with improvements on ALL fronts and not just one.

Steven

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Last Half of 2009:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/gallery/last_half_of_2009

2007 Paria Plateau
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_spring_2007

 
The question is why is it better than the Sony, with which it shares a sensor. Nikon's engineers figured something out that Sony's didn't.
...at a $4K premium, Nikon's engineers designed a more expensive, higher performance implementation that Sony just wasn't able to, having no DSLR cache as a basis for demanding $8K for a flagship Sony. Heck, they had problems moving the A900 at just $3K.

I don't think Nikon are doing the impossible or improbable at all with their DSLRs. They are just in the unique position of being hungry and aggressive enough to swing for the fences, and have the brand recognition to support charging a premium for higher-performance products.
That's true. Sometimes, bigger budgets do actually come out as better results!
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Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
http://skipm.smugmug.com/
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart
 
You could put in a super accurate 24-bit ADC, and still not have any better signal resolution.
Were you replying to my post, or another?

I was just talking about the amount of data having to be read out of each pixel, and how it is directly related to the bit depth of the ADC.
It also depends on the "depth" of the electron well (so you can count more photons). No point in being able to measure lots of electrons if there aren't enough to count to begin with.
That is true, but your 24-bit ADC would still require you to read all the 24 bits increasing the amount of data.
So the S90 is probably fine with its 12-bit ADC, whereas the 5D II can definitely make good use of its 14-bit one.
I agree with the theory, but I have yet to see any DSLR's that can show a good use of 14-bits. Even the state of the art cameras today doesn't seem to go much past 12 (not counting MF obviously).
 
Do you watch your HD tv from 1 cm away from the screen to see the high quality image from the pixel then ? Same principle for photos, although the viewing distance is a little closer than for TVs, i guess in proportion to the size of the photo. But you get the point right ? You can't judge a fabulous picture from examining the quality of each pixel, whether it is "sharp and noiseless.." How about checking your car's paint from 0.1 cm from the paint for imperfections in the paint ?
 
Even large 20"X30" prints.

We are not talking about watching TV.
We are not talking about watching car paint dry.
You can't judge a fabulous picture from examining the quality of each pixel,
whether it is "sharp and noiseless."
That is ONE point of a picture. All the detail in the world will not help a doomed photograph. HOWEVER, I have seen some great compositions lost due to poor technique and detail. But you get the point, right?

So simply mindlessly parroting some article saying "stop the mega pixels wars since enough is enough and worry about IQ" with little to back it up is a waste of time.

What I contest is IQ is going up at the pixel level. Lower noise. Better SNR (read DR). Better sharpness. Better color. At the same time, MP are also going up. For me, DR is enough to handle high contrast scenes:

http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/image/120134874



I am happy with the colors I get out:

http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/image/120134783



And ISO3200 looks pretty darn good as well (as well as DR):

http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/image/120151483



I will gladly take more detail.

Steven
Do you watch your HD tv from 1 cm away from the screen to see the high quality image from the pixel then ? Same principle for photos, although the viewing distance is a little closer than for TVs, i guess in proportion to the size of the photo. But you get the point right ? You can't judge a fabulous picture from examining the quality of each pixel, whether it is "sharp and noiseless.." How about checking your car's paint from 0.1 cm from the paint for imperfections in the paint ?
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Last Half of 2009:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/gallery/last_half_of_2009

2007 Paria Plateau
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_spring_2007

 
Didn't I just say a lighter AA-filter Skip? Even the review of this camera on this very same site mentioned the possibility of it. The fact that they use different processors would also account for the difference we see (Bionz vs Expeed).
 
I am Nikon shooter who is envious the 5d 2. Sorry, but the vast majority of 5d 2 banding examples come from just bad photography. It is more about lousey technique than design flaw.
Craig H.
Northern NJ
 
I recently owned a G10 because my wife wanted a good snapshot camera (something more portable than the DSLR), but I soon got rid of it because it was impractical. It had a ridiculous 14.7 MP on a small sensor.
Which you only need to deal with if you shoot RAW. If you shoot JPEGs, you can shoot them at lower resolutions if you want, and the results are much better than JPEGs of that size from older, lower-MP cameras.

14.7MP is not ridiculous, unless you have low IQ standards. A properly sampling camera should NEVER, EVER give sharp results on a 100 PPI monitor! If the results are that sharp, you need more pixels. It should take 3 pixels exclusive to transition black to white on a sharp B&W transient.
Not only did it have crappy high ISO sensitivity and low dynamic range,
It has more DR and high-ISO performance as good or better than most other P&S cameras before it. The Panasonic LX3 and the Canon G11 are unusual cameras in that they had reduced read noise - older cameras with 10MP sensors don't perform
as well as the G10.
and LOTS of noise even in ISO 80 (!) the file sizes were twice as big as those from my 20D,
That's not the sensor's fault; that is the fault of Canon's firmware department. The G10 is only worthy of 10 bits at ISO 80, and about 1 bit less for each doubling of ISO. That's with linear data. With a lookup table, far less levels can be used. the RAW files can be significantly smaller per MP (this is true of DSLRs also, except Canon DSLRs are worthy of 12 bits linear). The 1Ds3 only needs about 300 levels for the top stop of ISO 100, currently given about 7000 levels. The data could also be stored in such a way that the highest order bits can be separated because they compress extremely well. Current RAW file sizes may be justified for the purists, but they could be much, much smaller for the near-purists (people only conserved with visible purity).
which produced MUCH MUCH better images. For something like that, a 6MP sensor with increased dynamic range, better high ISO, and higher fps would have been a lot more useful.
6MP is a toy. When the pixels get too big, the late stage noise will start interfering with DR at low ISOs.
The issue is not that the IQ is not being well-controlled. It's that it could be made even better if the sensor circuitry were optimized more for, say, dynamic range, color sensitivity, and high ISO sensitivity.
For any given sensor size, they may all be manifestations of the same thing.
And, if that comes at the expense of MP, that would actually be welcome by a certain group of people (and it's not small). That's because for most photos other than, say, landscapes and portraits that may be blown up, we'd rather have higher IQ than more MP.
Most of those people are going to be kicking themselves in the rear in ten years, when their images look pixelated and jagged on their 100MP monitors, with mild-but-large noise grain.

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John

 
that people have been given a crop camera for $5000, and are still thankful that Lord canon didn't make the crop 1.6x.

And if Canon's excuse is countering sony, then it clearly shows that canon is not a leader, they are simply responding as a follower - and they still have the back-focus issue since they missed their biggest competition by a mile.

Ask ANY pro photographer what they want, a FF camera with large pixels or a crop camera with more but smaller pixels. Any sane photog will give you the same answer.

Max
If that were the case, then Canon would only produce 1.6x and FF sensors, like Nikon and Sony. 1.6x is cheaper to produce than 1.3x, isn't it? And then you'd have economies of scale that are lacking when producing a sensor size for one camera model. It takes less processing power to push a 1.3x sensor along to 10fps than it does a FF sensor.

Like I said earlier, it's only to compete with Sony that they continue to push pixel counts.

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Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
http://skipm.smugmug.com/
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart
 
The question is why is it better than the Sony, with which it shares a sensor. Nikon's engineers figured something out that Sony's didn't.
Nikon is giving out 14-bit RAWs from a 12-bit ADC. This suggests that Nikon may read the sensor 4 times and adds the results, halving the read noise.

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John

 
that people have been given a crop camera for $5000, and are still thankful that Lord canon didn't make the crop 1.6x.

And if Canon's excuse is countering sony, then it clearly shows that canon is not a leader, they are simply responding as a follower - and they still have the back-focus issue since they missed their biggest competition by a mile.
I'd agree. And that concerns me. They're not ennovating, they're just responding.
Ask ANY pro photographer what they want, a FF camera with large pixels or a crop camera with more but smaller pixels. Any sane photog will give you the same answer.
There sure seems to be a lot of guys on this thread who want more, smaller pixels, they just want it on a full frame sensor...
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Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
http://www.pbase.com/skipm
http://skipm.smugmug.com/
'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart
 
Because the management at Canon sees Sony as more of a threat, at this point, than Nikon. And Sony is relentlessly pushing pixel counts.
Sure nikon has a 24MP FF sensor, but their entry level models (all but the a700) haven't gone anywhere in 18 months. They refreshed their 3 cameras this year and kept the sensor the same and have not made a replacement for the a700.

So how can you say they relentlessly push pixel counts?!
 

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