Photoshop - the good, the bad, and the misleading.

jizzer

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I have to get this off my chest guys. I try to be a very helpful person when I can, because Lord knows I learn a ton from you guys (and other forums I frequent).

I have seen a lot of folks in this forum that don't know a lot about Photoshop. That's ok of course, but what disturbs me is to see people treating certain settings like it's "the law."

Just in the few weeks I've been on this forum I have come into contact with some of the most ridiculous notions concerning Photoshop.

Rather that deal with each, one by one, I'd just like to explain a little of how Photoshop works...

1.) Each pixel has a value in Photoshop. That value represents it's color, hue, luminosity etc. By having value, or number, attached to each pixel, it is then possible to do mathematical calculations on those numbers. The point here is that Photoshop has know way of knowing whether it's calculations look good or not. That is up to you, the artist. That said, you should never, never, never, never think that one setting in Photoshop is going to always work. Change the resolution of a picture (say from 72 to 300 dpi) and you'll see that quite a number of filters act differently (because for instance, you set the Blur to 3...meaning 3 pixels...but 3 pixels to a 72dpi image and 3 pixels to a 300 dpi image are proportionately different...as the effect will be (Blur in this case).

2. ) If you have 6 pixels ranging from white to black, with greys in between, and you apply a SHARPENING filter, Photoshop will change the color of those grey pixels to be closer to white and black. Many times this will cause 2 adjacent pixels to be the same color. If this happens, you have LOST detail. Folks on this forum really need to understand that almost (maybe all) FILTERS under the "Filter" menu are IMAGE DEGRADERS in some way.

3.) If you want to adjust a photo in Photoshop WITHOUT degrading your image, then stick mainly in the "Image" menu, which mostly offers tools that are non-degrading, and simply deal with the pixels that are present, rather than creating new pixels.

I say "mostly" because if you use the color controls to make a range of colors more similar, you run the very real risk of making adjacent colors "the same" - and in doing so, you are losing image detail.

That's all I can type for now, but if anyone ever has any Photoshop questions, I am here to help. I've used the program since version 2.0 in a print pre-press environment. I know this app like the back of my hand (probably better).

I just wanted to say this stuff because I don't think people should look to Photoshop for answers. It's always going to be there. It's an amazing program, no doubt. But it's much more amazing on a poor photo than a good one. In fact, a good photo to me could hardly be improved in PS.

I know 14 year old's that are amazing in Photoshop, but have no idea how to take a picture (that includes me...even though I'm 31;-). Hopefully that explains what I'm getting at.

jizzer
 
I would agree. I have used it off and on since version 3 and not as much as you, i am sure. I was more contained to the manufacturing and sales part of the print industry which i have been in for over 20 years. I cringe when I hear of people "sharpening" an image in any software program and manipulating any image is risky business, do a "save as" and always keep your original.

What your seeing Jizz is comparable to what we saw when sub-standard publishing programs came out and all of a sudden everyone was a graphic designer bringing in their "Word " and "Publisher" programs and expecting a CMYK conversion with an exact color match from the computer screen to the finished printed product.

I hope people will accept your offer to help and I am responding to this because I would like it up front for a while. Photoshop is a highly technological piece of software engineered for the professional. But, if you can afford it, the average individual can do amazing things with it. Spend sometime with the folks at photoshopcafe.com, or planetphotoshop.com, some of the tutorials will blow your mind. Look at some of the work created with it and then ask how many hours and layers are involved in the piece. It's crazy. I am into PS7 and the thing will make your head swim.

Enough rambling..............awesome program / worth the investment / and worth the time to learn it and use it right.......... It really is like a Lambergini on a downtown street....... when you know it belongs on the autobahn (spelling?)
Happy Day, Cappy
--
Cappy wonders what color the sky is in your world today?
 
I'm one of the dorks that has no clue with PS (ver. 6.0.1). I've been reading up on it with PS for dummies and PS 6 by Weinmann and Lourekas.

Thanks for offering the help! Can you recomend any good reads and links extending on Cappys recomendation?

Thanks
--
C.Pannbacker
5700
 
Jizzer, Thanks for your comments about Photoshop. I'm an avid digital darkroom fan, but found I only use 5% PS's capabilities, so I'm trying out Photoshop Elements. I like the larger tool bar (friendlier to senior's eyesight) and pre-programmed effects. Are you familiar with PSE, and if so, which tools is it missing from PS7.0 that I might need for hobbyist level photo-finishing?

Note: Imo, the biggest problem with PS is that people tend to over use it. I've found a light touch works better, and leaves my images looking natural.

Regards, Frank
 
jizzer,

Very pleased to read your comments,information and great offer of help.

I am a novice trying to learn digital imaging and etc. that goes with it. I have mac and got ps7, (actually Design collection that comes with Il.10, etc.) I went to ps. classes at local night time college but did not work as well for me persoanlly and a salesmen at chapter recommeded Adobe photoshop book called "CLASS ROOM IN A BOOK" I found that to be very good.

Now i would llike to buy a digital camera and waiting for photokina announcements.

When i read about sony F717 - that red can be adjusted a bit in PS i felt may be i should go for that camera but waiting to see ....

Q.? any comments Jizzer???
 
I have to get this off my chest guys. I try to be a very helpful
person when I can, because Lord knows I learn a ton from you guys
(and other forums I frequent).

I have seen a lot of folks in this forum that don't know a lot
about Photoshop. That's ok of course, but what disturbs me is to
see people treating certain settings like it's "the law."

Just in the few weeks I've been on this forum I have come into
contact with some of the most ridiculous notions concerning
Photoshop.

Rather that deal with each, one by one, I'd just like to explain a
little of how Photoshop works...

1.) Each pixel has a value in Photoshop. That value represents it's
color, hue, luminosity etc. By having value, or number, attached to
each pixel, it is then possible to do mathematical calculations on
those numbers. The point here is that Photoshop has know way of
knowing whether it's calculations look good or not. That is up to
you, the artist. That said, you should never, never, never, never
think that one setting in Photoshop is going to always work. Change
the resolution of a picture (say from 72 to 300 dpi) and you'll see
that quite a number of filters act differently (because for
instance, you set the Blur to 3...meaning 3 pixels...but 3 pixels
to a 72dpi image and 3 pixels to a 300 dpi image are
proportionately different...as the effect will be (Blur in this
case).

2. ) If you have 6 pixels ranging from white to black, with greys
in between, and you apply a SHARPENING filter, Photoshop will
change the color of those grey pixels to be closer to white and
black. Many times this will cause 2 adjacent pixels to be the same
color. If this happens, you have LOST detail. Folks on this forum
really need to understand that almost (maybe all) FILTERS under the
"Filter" menu are IMAGE DEGRADERS in some way.

3.) If you want to adjust a photo in Photoshop WITHOUT degrading
your image, then stick mainly in the "Image" menu, which mostly
offers tools that are non-degrading, and simply deal with the
pixels that are present, rather than creating new pixels.

I say "mostly" because if you use the color controls to make a
range of colors more similar, you run the very real risk of making
adjacent colors "the same" - and in doing so, you are losing image
detail.

That's all I can type for now, but if anyone ever has any Photoshop
questions, I am here to help. I've used the program since version
2.0 in a print pre-press environment. I know this app like the back
of my hand (probably better).

I just wanted to say this stuff because I don't think people should
look to Photoshop for answers. It's always going to be there. It's
an amazing program, no doubt. But it's much more amazing on a poor
photo than a good one. In fact, a good photo to me could hardly be
improved in PS.

I know 14 year old's that are amazing in Photoshop, but have no
idea how to take a picture (that includes me...even though I'm
31;-). Hopefully that explains what I'm getting at.

jizzer
--
Jim Tan
 
Hi Jizzer,

Great to read your comment on Photoshop, you are so right. It is an amazing tool, especially for less good pictures and I fully agree that a perfect image can't be enhanced in PS. I also agree that there are very less rules or settings for using on each image. This program has so many possibilities that we can use so many roads to achieve the same thing. It must be impossible to write a complete manual for everything that can be done with PS, it would count then thousands of pages and then even will not be complete. I like to use it as a darkroom and as you mentioned the most safe changes takes place in the Image menu and not the Filter menu. Regularly when I use the filter menu I apply it on a duplicated layer so that I can erase unwanted or to extreme parts of the image by adjusting the settings for the eraser. Great to bring the reality of pixels and how things react on pixels to us so that we don't forget it. Thanks.

With very kind regards,

Dirk
http://www.pbase.com/dievee
Pbase supporter
 
I've always had photoshop around but because of a change in personnel at my workplace and bcause I doing more digital photography lately...I've been doing more PS and not knowing how to accomplish things. your message was helpful...and I'm glad to know a person I can turn to for PS advice and tips!

Thanks
 
I have to get this off my chest guys. I try to be a very helpful
person when I can, because Lord knows I learn a ton from you guys
(and other forums I frequent).

I have seen a lot of folks in this forum that don't know a lot
about Photoshop. That's ok of course, but what disturbs me is to
see people treating certain settings like it's "the law."

Just in the few weeks I've been on this forum I have come into
contact with some of the most ridiculous notions concerning
Photoshop.

Rather that deal with each, one by one, I'd just like to explain a
little of how Photoshop works...

1.) Each pixel has a value in Photoshop. That value represents it's
color, hue, luminosity etc. By having value, or number, attached to
each pixel, it is then possible to do mathematical calculations on
those numbers. The point here is that Photoshop has know way of
knowing whether it's calculations look good or not. That is up to
you, the artist. That said, you should never, never, never, never
think that one setting in Photoshop is going to always work. Change
the resolution of a picture (say from 72 to 300 dpi) and you'll see
that quite a number of filters act differently (because for
instance, you set the Blur to 3...meaning 3 pixels...but 3 pixels
to a 72dpi image and 3 pixels to a 300 dpi image are
proportionately different...as the effect will be (Blur in this
case).

2. ) If you have 6 pixels ranging from white to black, with greys
in between, and you apply a SHARPENING filter, Photoshop will
change the color of those grey pixels to be closer to white and
black. Many times this will cause 2 adjacent pixels to be the same
color. If this happens, you have LOST detail. Folks on this forum
really need to understand that almost (maybe all) FILTERS under the
"Filter" menu are IMAGE DEGRADERS in some way.

3.) If you want to adjust a photo in Photoshop WITHOUT degrading
your image, then stick mainly in the "Image" menu, which mostly
offers tools that are non-degrading, and simply deal with the
pixels that are present, rather than creating new pixels.

I say "mostly" because if you use the color controls to make a
range of colors more similar, you run the very real risk of making
adjacent colors "the same" - and in doing so, you are losing image
detail.

That's all I can type for now, but if anyone ever has any Photoshop
questions, I am here to help. I've used the program since version
2.0 in a print pre-press environment. I know this app like the back
of my hand (probably better).

I just wanted to say this stuff because I don't think people should
look to Photoshop for answers. It's always going to be there. It's
an amazing program, no doubt. But it's much more amazing on a poor
photo than a good one. In fact, a good photo to me could hardly be
improved in PS.

I know 14 year old's that are amazing in Photoshop, but have no
idea how to take a picture (that includes me...even though I'm
31;-). Hopefully that explains what I'm getting at.

jizzer
Ok I won't argue about PS filters degrading the image, I've seen it when using usm and was very curious why the picture actually looked much worse in some instances, which makes me very happy I always save the originals untouched. My question is this. In the CP995, and I'm sure some other CP cameras they have the capability to adjust sharpness in the camera, I suppose while writing the image. Would it be better to utilize that and just leave usm alone? I realize on some images you need it, but I've in past just used it as a part of the general workflow, on not so great, as well as the great images. Sounds to me like you're all telling me I shouldn't do this?
God Bless,
Jim
http://www.pbase.com/jrj02
 
Ok I won't argue about PS filters degrading the image, I've seen it
when using usm and was very curious why the picture actually looked
much worse in some instances, which makes me very happy I always
save the originals untouched. My question is this. In the CP995,
and I'm sure some other CP cameras they have the capability to
adjust sharpness in the camera, I suppose while writing the image.
Would it be better to utilize that and just leave usm alone? I
realize on some images you need it, but I've in past just used it
as a part of the general workflow, on not so great, as well as the
great images. Sounds to me like you're all telling me I shouldn't
do this?
God Bless,
Jim
http://www.pbase.com/jrj02
If you know you will be postprocessing in PS, you are better off leaving sharpening off in-camera, and using USM where you have much more control over sharpening. Once an image is sharpened in-camera, if it's too much, your stuck. I sharpen every image that comes comes up on my monitor, some more than others. Jizzer may differ with me on this... but I may be won of the non-CMYK dunderheads he's talking about : )

--
Be the pixel.
950/990/995/4500 Mac/PhoSho5.5
FJBrad
 
Very pleased to read your comments,information and great offer of
help.

I am a novice trying to learn digital imaging and etc. that goes
with it. I have mac and got ps7, (actually Design collection that
comes with Il.10, etc.) I went to ps. classes at local night time
college but did not work as well for me persoanlly and a salesmen
at chapter recommeded Adobe photoshop book called "CLASS ROOM IN A
BOOK" I found that to be very good.

Now i would llike to buy a digital camera and waiting for photokina
announcements.

When i read about sony F717 - that red can be adjusted a bit in PS
i felt may be i should go for that camera but waiting to see ....

Q.? any comments Jizzer???
I've got three or four good PS books (inc. Adobe's classroom..), but found that Deke McClelland's PS videos and Scott Kelby's videos are a better tool for learning while the books are better for reference, or when more depth and detail are needed for understanding the technical aspects of the process.
http://www.photoshopuser.com
http://www.totaltraining.com

--
Be the pixel.
950/990/995/4500 Mac/PhoSho5.5
FJBrad
 
I have to get this off my chest guys. I try to be a very helpful
person when I can, because Lord knows I learn a ton from you guys
(and other forums I frequent).

I have seen a lot of folks in this forum that don't know a lot
about Photoshop. That's ok of course, but what disturbs me is to
see people treating certain settings like it's "the law."

Just in the few weeks I've been on this forum I have come into
contact with some of the most ridiculous notions concerning
Photoshop.

Rather that deal with each, one by one, I'd just like to explain a
little of how Photoshop works...

1.) Each pixel has a value in Photoshop. That value represents it's
color, hue, luminosity etc. By having value, or number, attached to
each pixel, it is then possible to do mathematical calculations on
those numbers. The point here is that Photoshop has know way of
knowing whether it's calculations look good or not. That is up to
you, the artist. That said, you should never, never, never, never
think that one setting in Photoshop is going to always work. Change
the resolution of a picture (say from 72 to 300 dpi) and you'll see
that quite a number of filters act differently (because for
instance, you set the Blur to 3...meaning 3 pixels...but 3 pixels
to a 72dpi image and 3 pixels to a 300 dpi image are
proportionately different...as the effect will be (Blur in this
case).

2. ) If you have 6 pixels ranging from white to black, with greys
in between, and you apply a SHARPENING filter, Photoshop will
change the color of those grey pixels to be closer to white and
black. Many times this will cause 2 adjacent pixels to be the same
color. If this happens, you have LOST detail. Folks on this forum
really need to understand that almost (maybe all) FILTERS under the
"Filter" menu are IMAGE DEGRADERS in some way.

3.) If you want to adjust a photo in Photoshop WITHOUT degrading
your image, then stick mainly in the "Image" menu, which mostly
offers tools that are non-degrading, and simply deal with the
pixels that are present, rather than creating new pixels.

I say "mostly" because if you use the color controls to make a
range of colors more similar, you run the very real risk of making
adjacent colors "the same" - and in doing so, you are losing image
detail.

That's all I can type for now, but if anyone ever has any Photoshop
questions, I am here to help. I've used the program since version
2.0 in a print pre-press environment. I know this app like the back
of my hand (probably better).

I just wanted to say this stuff because I don't think people should
look to Photoshop for answers. It's always going to be there. It's
an amazing program, no doubt. But it's much more amazing on a poor
photo than a good one. In fact, a good photo to me could hardly be
improved in PS.

I know 14 year old's that are amazing in Photoshop, but have no
idea how to take a picture (that includes me...even though I'm
31;-). Hopefully that explains what I'm getting at.

jizzer
Do you think it is possible that because you are so knowledgeable about Photoshop that you are in danger of starting to" look down your nose" at people who are not as experienced as you (no offence meant) This can happen subconsciously It comes across as if you are preaching ( again no offence meant) Apart from this your post is informative!
 
I appreciate your comments. I now have sharpening turned OFF on my Nikon 4500 and will save my originals before editing. I think I now have a clearer idea of what sharpening does.
 
jizzer ,

Are you saying that in camera sharpening is better because PS filters (native sharpening & plug-ins ) degrade the image (loss of details)? The general advice on this forum is to set in-camera sharpening to low and doing the sharpening in PS. The reason stated is that in camera sharpening is irreversible. Could you please comment.

Thanks for the help.
John
2. ) If you have 6 pixels ranging from white to black, with greys
in between, and you apply a SHARPENING filter, Photoshop will
change the color of those grey pixels to be closer to white and
black. Many times this will cause 2 adjacent pixels to be the same
color. If this happens, you have LOST detail. Folks on this forum
really need to understand that almost (maybe all) FILTERS under the
"Filter" menu are IMAGE DEGRADERS in some way.
 
Do you think it is possible that because you are so knowledgeable
about Photoshop that you are in danger of starting to" look down
your nose" at people who are not as experienced as you (no offence
meant) This can happen subconsciously It comes across as if you are
preaching ( again no offence meant) Apart from this your post is
informative!
Robert,

I don't think Jizzer's intent was to talk down to us at all, but rather to share some knowledge which some of us may benefit greatly from. I have a photographer friend who has been a great mentor to me who just this week gave me the same talk in his own passionate portugese kind of way (okay--he was yelling, but in a nice way:) I did not take offense at all but rather took it to heart and filed it away for future thought. Sometimes we need to be reminded that the art begins with the image.

Pam
 
Thanks for the help.
John
2. ) If you have 6 pixels ranging from white to black, with greys
in between, and you apply a SHARPENING filter, Photoshop will
change the color of those grey pixels to be closer to white and
black. Many times this will cause 2 adjacent pixels to be the same
color. If this happens, you have LOST detail. Folks on this forum
really need to understand that almost (maybe all) FILTERS under the
"Filter" menu are IMAGE DEGRADERS in some way.
--
If the Threshold is set to 5 then there would be no sharpening applied to the grey pixels as mentioned above It means that pixels with a greater difference or above will be sharpened only Proper sharpening definitely enhances an image
 
Thanks for the help.
John
2. ) If you have 6 pixels ranging from white to black, with greys
in between, and you apply a SHARPENING filter, Photoshop will
change the color of those grey pixels to be closer to white and
black. Many times this will cause 2 adjacent pixels to be the same
color. If this happens, you have LOST detail. Folks on this forum
really need to understand that almost (maybe all) FILTERS under the
"Filter" menu are IMAGE DEGRADERS in some way.
--
It's best to keep the camera at it's lowest contrast setting. Keep the image in RAW format. As far as sharpness, I would say keep it at normal or lowest setting if the camera doesn't do any bluring at that setting. This will retain the most detail and allow one to adjust it later in a graphics program.
 
Thanks for the help.
John
2. ) If you have 6 pixels ranging from white to black, with greys
in between, and you apply a SHARPENING filter, Photoshop will
change the color of those grey pixels to be closer to white and
black. Many times this will cause 2 adjacent pixels to be the same
color. If this happens, you have LOST detail. Folks on this forum
really need to understand that almost (maybe all) FILTERS under the
"Filter" menu are IMAGE DEGRADERS in some way.
--
It's best to keep the camera at it's lowest contrast setting. Keep
the image in RAW format. As far as sharpness, I would say keep it
at normal or lowest setting if the camera doesn't do any bluring at
that setting. This will retain the most detail and allow one to
adjust it later in a graphics program.
So, what do you think, Jizzer. Can you enlighten us on the relative merits of in-camera sharpening versus PS USM, or no sharpening at all?
We really could use some expert advice.

Also, although sharpening results in less pristine data being preserved, and sharpness adds apparent sharpness, rather than actual sharpness, do you think this is a reason not to use it in preparing an image for print or display? Or are you just suggesting that USM not be used and saved as a master file, but only on a copy? Please clarify.
--
Be the pixel.
950/990/995/4500 Mac/PhoSho5.5
FJBrad
 
I have to get this off my chest guys. I try to be a very helpful
person when I can, because Lord knows I learn a ton from you guys
(and other forums I frequent).

I have seen a lot of folks in this forum that don't know a lot
about Photoshop. That's ok of course, but what disturbs me is to
see people treating certain settings like it's "the law."

Just in the few weeks I've been on this forum I have come into
contact with some of the most ridiculous notions concerning
Photoshop.

Rather that deal with each, one by one, I'd just like to explain a
little of how Photoshop works...

1.) Each pixel has a value in Photoshop. That value represents it's
color, hue, luminosity etc. By having value, or number, attached to
each pixel, it is then possible to do mathematical calculations on
those numbers. The point here is that Photoshop has know way of
knowing whether it's calculations look good or not. That is up to
you, the artist. That said, you should never, never, never, never
think that one setting in Photoshop is going to always work. Change
the resolution of a picture (say from 72 to 300 dpi) and you'll see
that quite a number of filters act differently (because for
instance, you set the Blur to 3...meaning 3 pixels...but 3 pixels
to a 72dpi image and 3 pixels to a 300 dpi image are
proportionately different...as the effect will be (Blur in this
case).

2. ) If you have 6 pixels ranging from white to black, with greys
in between, and you apply a SHARPENING filter, Photoshop will
change the color of those grey pixels to be closer to white and
black. Many times this will cause 2 adjacent pixels to be the same
color. If this happens, you have LOST detail. Folks on this forum
really need to understand that almost (maybe all) FILTERS under the
"Filter" menu are IMAGE DEGRADERS in some way.

3.) If you want to adjust a photo in Photoshop WITHOUT degrading
your image, then stick mainly in the "Image" menu, which mostly
offers tools that are non-degrading, and simply deal with the
pixels that are present, rather than creating new pixels.

I say "mostly" because if you use the color controls to make a
range of colors more similar, you run the very real risk of making
adjacent colors "the same" - and in doing so, you are losing image
detail.

That's all I can type for now, but if anyone ever has any Photoshop
questions, I am here to help. I've used the program since version
2.0 in a print pre-press environment. I know this app like the back
of my hand (probably better).

I just wanted to say this stuff because I don't think people should
look to Photoshop for answers. It's always going to be there. It's
an amazing program, no doubt. But it's much more amazing on a poor
photo than a good one. In fact, a good photo to me could hardly be
improved in PS.

I know 14 year old's that are amazing in Photoshop, but have no
idea how to take a picture (that includes me...even though I'm
31;-). Hopefully that explains what I'm getting at.

jizzer
Do you think it is possible that because you are so knowledgeable
about Photoshop that you are in danger of starting to" look down
your nose" at people who are not as experienced as you (no offence
meant) This can happen subconsciously It comes across as if you are
preaching ( again no offence meant) Apart from this your post is
informative!
Knowlege is what I search this form for and am delighted when I see this information being available. Being a beginner, this thread is valuable to me.

jizzer is what I will be looking for and greatly appreciate his taking time out to share. There are enough psuedo, eqotisical nice guy threads and they are here everyday, give me a knowledgeable guy so I can learn by picking his brain. Go jizzer!
--
George L
 
You guys are awesome! I really half expected to get flamed for my comments just because on so many forums everyone wants to nit-pick this and that...or I figured someone might think I was putting down PS (I definitely didn't mean to.) But I did NOT expect 18 positive responses (maybe I'm getting jaded). Anyway, thanks a lot for hearing me out.:)

As I said before, there is so, so, SO much that I don't know, but PS is something I really know well. So it would be my pleasure to help any folks that are just starting out with any questions they may have.

If anyone has any PS questions, and I'm not around, send them to [email protected] and I'll do my best to answer everyone.

I also wanted to say that my advice is only MY advice. It is not written in stone (I don't believe anything in PS is.) And it is only MY opinion. As a working graphic artist, I have a certain view of PS and pictures that dictates that resolution and all those other specs don't matter - only that the final product looks good.

Thanks again to everyone for being such good sports! You guys really made my day with your great attitude:-)

jizzer
 

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