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Is Nikon so behind???

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I use Canon, the system and the cameras better fit my needs. But that is a personal decision, the same it should be for anyone else, cameras and lenses are just tools.

That said I do not think Nikon is that far behind it technology. There are some areas where Canon has a decent lead, but it is not as great distance as some would try to get you to beliveve. Nikon has the lead in other areas.

That is the way the market works, for a while Canon will lead, then Nikon will lead. It is good for the companies and good for us the users as well.

I am sure Nikon will have an answer to the 1Ds. I don't think it will "blow" the 1Ds away. Not because I don't think Nikon can do it, just from a realistic stand point there is not much more room to go in 35mm DSLRs currently. More Mp would be almost pointless, and the sensor can't get bigger than full frame. So will Nikon have a full frame camera soon? Yes I believe so.

So as a Canon user, I ask where is this technology gap? I don't see it.
baruth said:
A friend of mine, who is semi-pro, has been with Nikon for 32
years. He jumped boat to Canon. He said Canon's cameras(film and
dig) and lenses are so much more advanced=better than Nikon's. I
never owned a Canon Slr, so it is hard for me to judge. What do you
think? Is Nkon so much behind in technology?-
baruth
Click to expand...
--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
 
-- this is a little salami.

Canon and Nikon in the professional class cannot blow each other away. The professional class is very, very small and made up of hardened men and women who will not be swayed by a feature here or there – unless it is absolutely the one feature they require for their particular photography.

Nikon have a traditional ten-year gap between its professional machines. I personally don’t think this ten-year gap has arrived again yet and it will probably never again be quite that long.

The professional shift to Canon has been ongoing primarily because of its lenses and we are seeing something of an explosion of Canon equipment primarily because the Eos 1-D is available and is being taken up by Canon professionals, many, in interviews and articles explaining how they did not progress on the digital side until the Eos was actually available. This means that Canon are only beginning to reach their market share whilst the Nikon had been artificially high due to its monopoly. I say thank Canon, as they say in the Canon forum, thank Nikon, that Canon are so good – maybe now Nikon will fix their D1 ailments once and for all.

But there will be no massive shift to one system or the other in the professional market, no war, no counter attack just a small percentage point or two and if any downturn lasts for three years then a more radical strategy may take place to attract customers – Canon are only currently supplying their own market share, Nikon are only just beginning to realise what that market needs and may or may not move in any one direction. Don’t forget that one reason why Canon are market leaders in the D30/60 class is because Nikon left that market to them but enjoyed a monopoly with the D1 series.

Now Nikon are introducing tomorrows professionals to a fantastic D100 machine, which is bound to reap massive rewards in a few years time – Nikon need to be ready with a similarly specked professional machine whilst Canon’s entry level monopoly has been eroded and will be further eroded by the D100, S2, S9 and KO-1 (KodOly), if anything it is Canon who are facing a tough battle who may well have to contend with a mere 20% share of a market that they had 100% in a few months ago. Nikon on the other hand are actually in a very favourable position with a strong contender in the entry level D60/D100 class and at worst will share 50% of the professional market with Canon – but Canon have to win that market mostly composed of tough professional people who don’t really care too much about their equipment as long as they get the shot, and won’t drop everything, like amateurs will, to just even “try out” a system.

So all in all the onus is on Canon who are offering very desirable equipment, are in a better financial position but are facing a substantial market share adjustment and a worldwide downturn in the face of very tough competition, of which Nikon are only one other player and probably not even the most dominant next either at that. The future unfolds and where it stops nobody knows. ;))
 
on most of the points you have made.

The 1Ds is based on the proven 1D design. In fact it is little more than a new sensor in a proven body, along the lines Nikon went with the D1x/D1h. Canon has not been a company that pre-announces products and takes forever to deliver ala the 70-200VR. It would not be a shock to see the 1Ds available for sale before the end of the year.

There are plenty of reasons to critize Canon but releasing vaporware just is not one of them. And what you call a loss leader price will be a great thing for the end users and will put a heavy burden on Nikon. Wait and see.
Cribbage said:
Whatever Nikon has up its sleeve with the D2, it must be HUGE to
have driven Canon to this embarrassing extreme, which will prove to
be a pall over Canon's digital reputation.
alfred_schiele said:
Well, when does this guy switch to Leica because Canon Lenses are
so bad (-;

When does he switch to a viewfinder Leica because all SLR wide
angles are worse to viewfinder cameras symmetric lens
constructions...

And when does he switch to any MF because it is so superiour in
detail compared to any 35mm filn or 35mm based digital camera?

Not technology but you make images.

Are you dissapointed with your equipment?

I have some different stuff and there is few between a Leica prime
and a Nikon prime for a normal user. MF is much better than
anything 35mm based I tried...

Nikon has a broad range of lenses, some below average, some good
and some superiour as every manufacturer has. Unless you have very
special demands - which might cause you to own more than one brand
and system - there is no reason to panic in any way...

Regards, A. Schiele.
baruth said:
A friend of mine, who is semi-pro, has been with Nikon for 32
years. He jumped boat to Canon. He said Canon's cameras(film and
dig) and lenses are so much more advanced=better than Nikon's. I
never owned a Canon Slr, so it is hard for me to judge. What do you
think? Is Nkon so much behind in technology?-
baruth
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
 
Valliesto Bailey said:
The 1Ds is based on the proven 1D design. In fact it is little more
than a new sensor in a proven body, along the lines Nikon went with
the D1x/D1h. Canon has not been a company that pre-announces
products and takes forever to deliver ala the 70-200VR. It would
not be a shock to see the 1Ds available for sale before the end of
the year.

There are plenty of reasons to critize Canon but releasing
vaporware just is not one of them. And what you call a loss leader
price will be a great thing for the end users and will put a heavy
burden on Nikon. Wait and see.
Cribbage said:
Whatever Nikon has up its sleeve with the D2, it must be HUGE to
have driven Canon to this embarrassing extreme, which will prove to
be a pall over Canon's digital reputation.
alfred_schiele said:
Well, when does this guy switch to Leica because Canon Lenses are
so bad (-;

When does he switch to a viewfinder Leica because all SLR wide
angles are worse to viewfinder cameras symmetric lens
constructions...

And when does he switch to any MF because it is so superiour in
detail compared to any 35mm filn or 35mm based digital camera?

Not technology but you make images.

Are you dissapointed with your equipment?

I have some different stuff and there is few between a Leica prime
and a Nikon prime for a normal user. MF is much better than
anything 35mm based I tried...

Nikon has a broad range of lenses, some below average, some good
and some superiour as every manufacturer has. Unless you have very
special demands - which might cause you to own more than one brand
and system - there is no reason to panic in any way...

Regards, A. Schiele.
baruth said:
A friend of mine, who is semi-pro, has been with Nikon for 32
years. He jumped boat to Canon. He said Canon's cameras(film and
dig) and lenses are so much more advanced=better than Nikon's. I
never owned a Canon Slr, so it is hard for me to judge. What do you
think? Is Nkon so much behind in technology?-
baruth
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
Click to expand...
 
You speak of the past. What's so shocking, and what will so damage Canon's reputation, is that the D1s will be essentially vaporware, with the longest lead-time of any Canon offering to date and the most inflated promises, and the fact they're doing it to take away from the D2 makes it even more diminishing to their reputation. The "accidental" release is, by itself, one of Canon's most unprofessional and disgusting market positioning initiatives in years.
Valliesto Bailey said:
The 1Ds is based on the proven 1D design. In fact it is little more
than a new sensor in a proven body, along the lines Nikon went with
the D1x/D1h. Canon has not been a company that pre-announces
products and takes forever to deliver ala the 70-200VR. It would
not be a shock to see the 1Ds available for sale before the end of
the year.

There are plenty of reasons to critize Canon but releasing
vaporware just is not one of them. And what you call a loss leader
price will be a great thing for the end users and will put a heavy
burden on Nikon. Wait and see.
Cribbage said:
Whatever Nikon has up its sleeve with the D2, it must be HUGE to
have driven Canon to this embarrassing extreme, which will prove to
be a pall over Canon's digital reputation.
alfred_schiele said:
Well, when does this guy switch to Leica because Canon Lenses are
so bad (-;

When does he switch to a viewfinder Leica because all SLR wide
angles are worse to viewfinder cameras symmetric lens
constructions...

And when does he switch to any MF because it is so superiour in
detail compared to any 35mm filn or 35mm based digital camera?

Not technology but you make images.

Are you dissapointed with your equipment?

I have some different stuff and there is few between a Leica prime
and a Nikon prime for a normal user. MF is much better than
anything 35mm based I tried...

Nikon has a broad range of lenses, some below average, some good
and some superiour as every manufacturer has. Unless you have very
special demands - which might cause you to own more than one brand
and system - there is no reason to panic in any way...

Regards, A. Schiele.
baruth said:
A friend of mine, who is semi-pro, has been with Nikon for 32
years. He jumped boat to Canon. He said Canon's cameras(film and
dig) and lenses are so much more advanced=better than Nikon's. I
never owned a Canon Slr, so it is hard for me to judge. What do you
think? Is Nkon so much behind in technology?-
baruth
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
Click to expand...
 
You tell a nice, tight, interally consistent story. It's just that your story seems to have very little to do with the actual position, dynamics, strategy and momentum of these market segments.
Ger Bee said:
-- this is a little salami.

Canon and Nikon in the professional class cannot blow each other
away. The professional class is very, very small and made up of
hardened men and women who will not be swayed by a feature here or
there – unless it is absolutely the one feature they require for
their particular photography.

Nikon have a traditional ten-year gap between its professional
machines. I personally don’t think this ten-year gap has arrived
again yet and it will probably never again be quite that long.

The professional shift to Canon has been ongoing primarily because
of its lenses and we are seeing something of an explosion of Canon
equipment primarily because the Eos 1-D is available and is being
taken up by Canon professionals, many, in interviews and articles
explaining how they did not progress on the digital side until the
Eos was actually available. This means that Canon are only
beginning to reach their market share whilst the Nikon had been
artificially high due to its monopoly. I say thank Canon, as they
say in the Canon forum, thank Nikon, that Canon are so good – maybe
now Nikon will fix their D1 ailments once and for all.

But there will be no massive shift to one system or the other in
the professional market, no war, no counter attack just a small
percentage point or two and if any downturn lasts for three years
then a more radical strategy may take place to attract customers –
Canon are only currently supplying their own market share, Nikon
are only just beginning to realise what that market needs and may
or may not move in any one direction. Don’t forget that one reason
why Canon are market leaders in the D30/60 class is because Nikon
left that market to them but enjoyed a monopoly with the D1 series.

Now Nikon are introducing tomorrows professionals to a fantastic
D100 machine, which is bound to reap massive rewards in a few years
time – Nikon need to be ready with a similarly specked professional
machine whilst Canon’s entry level monopoly has been eroded and
will be further eroded by the D100, S2, S9 and KO-1 (KodOly), if
anything it is Canon who are facing a tough battle who may well
have to contend with a mere 20% share of a market that they had
100% in a few months ago. Nikon on the other hand are actually in a
very favourable position with a strong contender in the entry level
D60/D100 class and at worst will share 50% of the professional
market with Canon – but Canon have to win that market mostly
composed of tough professional people who don’t really care too
much about their equipment as long as they get the shot, and won’t
drop everything, like amateurs will, to just even “try out” a
system.

So all in all the onus is on Canon who are offering very desirable
equipment, are in a better financial position but are facing a
substantial market share adjustment and a worldwide downturn in the
face of very tough competition, of which Nikon are only one other
player and probably not even the most dominant next either at that.
The future unfolds and where it stops nobody knows. ;))
Click to expand...
 
I used to own Canon EOS A2E, EOS 10s, and Canon A1.
I don't think their focusing is that fast (or maybe because I did not
own any large aperture lenses back then).
1998, when I decied which new camera I want, I decided to move on to
Nikon F5, the reason. a very solid SLR body, that really worth
$2,200 (when I first saw the F5's price, I was like, Nikon is crazy,
who is going to pay $2,200 plus for a Nikon SLR body, oh well
I did. It was even more expensive than some of the
Contax bodies). Anyway, Nikon is not that far behind in terms of
technology, like others said, Nikon D1 was the first reached
"affordable" range for DSLR, comparable Kodak DCS is going to 15K.
Nikon is a much smaller company compare to Canon,
Canon sells everything from DV, fax, copier, and of course cameras.
its product should be cheaper because due to the fact it can
spread the technology throguht out the product line, but did t
hey offer such ???
Nope............
Choose the one you enjoy the most, that is the key.

.
baruth said:
A friend of mine, who is semi-pro, has been with Nikon for 32
years. He jumped boat to Canon. He said Canon's cameras(film and
dig) and lenses are so much more advanced=better than Nikon's. I
never owned a Canon Slr, so it is hard for me to judge. What do you
think? Is Nkon so much behind in technology?-
baruth
Click to expand...
 
Have fun.

GH
GoldenHammer said:
GH
baruth said:
A friend of mine, who is semi-pro, has been with Nikon for 32
years. He jumped boat to Canon. He said Canon's cameras(film and
dig) and lenses are so much more advanced=better than Nikon's. I
never owned a Canon Slr, so it is hard for me to judge. What do you
think? Is Nkon so much behind in technology?-
baruth
Click to expand...
--



姿彩生活新世紀 - Life
Style 21
http://www.pbase.com/goldenhammer
Click to expand...
--



姿彩生活新世紀 - Life Style 21
http://www.pbase.com/goldenhammer
 
You seem so certain, and yet you have absolutely no basis for your statements. Historically, Canon has been very quick to bring things to market. D30 to D60 happened very quickly. I don't doubt 1D to 1DS will happen in similar fashion. If you want to talk "longest lead-time", just take a look at the Nikon 70-200/2.8 AF-S VR! I think the Canon 400 USM DO IS lens had a shorter lead-time! You can go out and buy a Canon 400 USM DO IS. You still can't buy a 70-200/2.8 AF-S VR. Besides, why would you even think that the EOS 1DS would be vaporware? The components are already established. The body is the same as the 1D, and the sensor is an evolution of the CMOS chips found in the D30 and D60. Incredibly, all this has been developed in house. Nikon, on the other hand, must outsource their sensors, giving Nikon much less control of their own destiny.

I wouldn't be surprised if the EOS 1DS beats the Sigma SD-9 to the market, let alone the Nikon D2.
Cribbage said:
Valliesto Bailey said:
The 1Ds is based on the proven 1D design. In fact it is little more
than a new sensor in a proven body, along the lines Nikon went with
the D1x/D1h. Canon has not been a company that pre-announces
products and takes forever to deliver ala the 70-200VR. It would
not be a shock to see the 1Ds available for sale before the end of
the year.

There are plenty of reasons to critize Canon but releasing
vaporware just is not one of them. And what you call a loss leader
price will be a great thing for the end users and will put a heavy
burden on Nikon. Wait and see.
Cribbage said:
Whatever Nikon has up its sleeve with the D2, it must be HUGE to
have driven Canon to this embarrassing extreme, which will prove to
be a pall over Canon's digital reputation.
alfred_schiele said:
Well, when does this guy switch to Leica because Canon Lenses are
so bad (-;

When does he switch to a viewfinder Leica because all SLR wide
angles are worse to viewfinder cameras symmetric lens
constructions...

And when does he switch to any MF because it is so superiour in
detail compared to any 35mm filn or 35mm based digital camera?

Not technology but you make images.

Are you dissapointed with your equipment?

I have some different stuff and there is few between a Leica prime
and a Nikon prime for a normal user. MF is much better than
anything 35mm based I tried...

Nikon has a broad range of lenses, some below average, some good
and some superiour as every manufacturer has. Unless you have very
special demands - which might cause you to own more than one brand
and system - there is no reason to panic in any way...

Regards, A. Schiele.
baruth said:
A friend of mine, who is semi-pro, has been with Nikon for 32
years. He jumped boat to Canon. He said Canon's cameras(film and
dig) and lenses are so much more advanced=better than Nikon's. I
never owned a Canon Slr, so it is hard for me to judge. What do you
think? Is Nkon so much behind in technology?-
baruth
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Cribbage said:
You tell a nice, tight, interally consistent story. It's just that
your story seems to have very little to do with the actual
position, dynamics, strategy and momentum of these market segments.
Click to expand...
Speaking of "position, dynamics, stategy and momentum" once Canon gets their momentum going, they seem to really take off at a blistering pace. Sure, Canon came to the DSLR arena later than Nikon. But once they did, they really advanced quickly. D30 became D60 before Nikon came out with D100. CMOS started out at 3MP, then became 6MP, and now it's at 11MP, all in a very short period of time. Historically, you can see this pattern with their lens technology, too. Canon has lots of USM lenses, lots of IS lenses, and three tilt-shift lenses. Once they get the technology worked out, they start cranking them out like crazy. Meanwhile, Nikon is still working on their first lens that would incorporate both AF-S and VR. That's like learning how to start the engine of your car while the competition is already cruising down the freeway.
 
Cribbage said:
Canon is about to announce a vapour camera -- promising the moon --
with the longest anticipated time to market of any camera in their
history, unproven technology and a loss-leader price.

Whatever Nikon has up its sleeve with the D2, it must be HUGE to
have driven Canon to this embarrassing extreme, which will prove to
be a pall over Canon's digital reputation.
Click to expand...
--
I love my D60s.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
 
What will be the lead time on the D2? If and when it is announced, what promises will Nikon make?

If you are mean lead time as the time a user will have to wait for delivery, then I agree. But that will be due to high demand and the fact that DSLR are not the easiest thing to mass produce.

But if you are referring to the time between announcement and product shipping. I have no information in regard to Canon's plans. Please explain and document your information. I have told you why I believe the 1Ds will be easy to engineer and produce for Canon, now it is your turn to tell me why The Canon will not meet expectations and why there will be delays.

Time will tell us the strengths and weaknesses of each new DSLR, be it the Canon or the Nikon.

On a different note, I am puzzled by your venom against Canon. I know I am what would be considered a stranger here, but I do not consider myself nor you an enemy. Choosing a tool is hardly an area I would think would bring out such feelings. So I wonder what is at the root of your feelings?
Cribbage said:
Valliesto Bailey said:
The 1Ds is based on the proven 1D design. In fact it is little more
than a new sensor in a proven body, along the lines Nikon went with
the D1x/D1h. Canon has not been a company that pre-announces
products and takes forever to deliver ala the 70-200VR. It would
not be a shock to see the 1Ds available for sale before the end of
the year.

There are plenty of reasons to critize Canon but releasing
vaporware just is not one of them. And what you call a loss leader
price will be a great thing for the end users and will put a heavy
burden on Nikon. Wait and see.
Cribbage said:
Whatever Nikon has up its sleeve with the D2, it must be HUGE to
have driven Canon to this embarrassing extreme, which will prove to
be a pall over Canon's digital reputation.
alfred_schiele said:
Well, when does this guy switch to Leica because Canon Lenses are
so bad (-;

When does he switch to a viewfinder Leica because all SLR wide
angles are worse to viewfinder cameras symmetric lens
constructions...

And when does he switch to any MF because it is so superiour in
detail compared to any 35mm filn or 35mm based digital camera?

Not technology but you make images.

Are you dissapointed with your equipment?

I have some different stuff and there is few between a Leica prime
and a Nikon prime for a normal user. MF is much better than
anything 35mm based I tried...

Nikon has a broad range of lenses, some below average, some good
and some superiour as every manufacturer has. Unless you have very
special demands - which might cause you to own more than one brand
and system - there is no reason to panic in any way...

Regards, A. Schiele.
baruth said:
A friend of mine, who is semi-pro, has been with Nikon for 32
years. He jumped boat to Canon. He said Canon's cameras(film and
dig) and lenses are so much more advanced=better than Nikon's. I
never owned a Canon Slr, so it is hard for me to judge. What do you
think? Is Nkon so much behind in technology?-
baruth
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Valliesto
'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five
minutes longer.'
  • R.W. Emerson
 
I have been with Canon for over 15 years before I switched to Nikon (D1)
and the only thing I see is that Nikon cameras are somewhat easier to use,
at least for me.
Other than that I don't think there is much difference.

Eugene
John Ricard said:
That's funny because MY friend is also a semi-pro. And he too has
been with Nikon for 32 years. But he says Cannon cameras aren't
more advanced than Nikons. What do you guys think about that?
Click to expand...
 
Kathy in MD said:
Hello Ebay - Hello Nikon. I have used a friends D mount lens that
he purchased 10 years ago on my N90. Yes, it was manual focus
(gee, just like in the old days), but it was sharp as a tack and
quite compatible.
Click to expand...
That was then. With a current body like the D100, you don't have any metering capabilities with AI-S lenses (apart from the new 45mm f/2.8P). If you are prepared to accept this level of "compatibility", you can even use Contax Zeiss lenses on a Canon body with a mechanical adapter, and it will at least give you the option of stop-down metering.

My father couldn't realistically use any of his AI-S lenses when I upgraded him to a D100 (not that I'm complaining, I grabbed them for my own FM3A). So the theoretical advantage of lens compatibility is not there, but you still have to pay the price for the antiquated F mount:
  • small mount size means really fast lenses like the 50mm f/1.0L are not available for Nikon, nor are there real wideangle Tilt/shift lenses (PC-Nikkors offer only shift)
  • motor in-camera means slower focusing and noisier for most lenses (hopefully, the 24-85mm AF-S is a sign of things to come that Nikon will bring AF-S to mainstream AF-Nikkors).
  • incredibly confusing compatibility matrices, even for AF-Nikkors
That said, there are still areas where Nikon is ahead, such as macro photography, and arguably flash. But the F mount is not one of them.
 
Ok so your friend is a semi pro and that makes him an expert? I use Nikons professionally and I don't even care what is better as long as I am making money. Thats what pros do, right?
 
Peter Phan said:
You seem so certain, and yet you have absolutely no basis for your
statements.
Click to expand...
Well, you happen to be wrong about that. :-) I'll cite "well placed sources", primarily Nikon, but not exclusively. Some Canon.

It's remarkable how much credence is given to people like Phil who've tied their wrists and ankles in NDA's, because they're too lazy to do the kind of investigative journalism to bring quality intelligence to the marketplace before companies desperate to control information want them to.
Peter Phan said:
If you want to talk
"longest lead-time", just take a look at the Nikon 70-200/2.8 AF-S
VR!
Click to expand...
We ain't talk'n lenses here.
Peter Phan said:
The components are already
established. The body is the same as the 1D, and the sensor is an
evolution of the CMOS chips found in the D30 and D60.
Click to expand...
This is what, the third e-mail making this point? Utterly irrelevent, since what's new is what's causing all the problems -- yet unsolved. Speaking of the CMOS chip in question as "evolutionary" reveals your ignorance of the basic claims they make for the component. Remarkably, when they can't even keep the production lines churning on the D60, they're proceeding with the promotion anyway.

What's amusing is that, six months from now, the market will be awash in cameras with dramatic breakthrough technologies, primarily from Nikon not Canon, but that the Canon PR machine is trying so desperately to create the opposite impression.

How is Canon reputed? Let's just say that too will change, if they keep this up.
 
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