MLU---real photos impossible without it

...there has been such an explosion of MLU threads for Sony these days, that it's starting to make one wonder what might be behind it.

a good quality compact with IQ probably as good as any Sony DSLR (except say the A850 / A900) costs less than a cheap DSLR lens.

And, my comment was tongue in cheek - fact is that the DSLR design is obsolete for the digital age.

But yeah, I realise that none of this will do any good to an existing Sony owner who does not instead to buy a Canon S90 or similar.
 
Is it impossible to take good photos without MLU?
What do you mean by good photo? Do you think that kapa's pictures taken without MLU are not real pictures ? Are you under Barry's influence ? Do you know that photography as nothing to do with MLU ?
 
Barry could you please write to my car company , it seems they have missed a few obvious facilities off my sports car... it only take two people , really useless for shopping , oh and when iwant to go o ver rough ground it get stuck in the mud.

Or mayabe you think i should have worked what i wanted before i purchased the car.... and if my needs change i should consider another camera?
....
I think i will be hearing a cracked record.
that involves a lot of blah blah blah
 
...there has been such an explosion of MLU threads for Sony these days, that it's starting to make one wonder what might be behind it.
Might be something to do with the new A5xx models, at a wild guess!
a good quality compact with IQ probably as good as any Sony DSLR (except say the A850 / A900) costs less than a cheap DSLR lens.
Define a good quality compact?? Some are ok, many have rather hmm lenses, and some are pretty poor DR wise too. A few are pretty good, but then you start paying DSLR beating prices, which kinda kills part of the appeal
And, my comment was tongue in cheek - fact is that the DSLR design is obsolete for the digital age.
Obsolete means..discarded, out of date, no longer of use.

Might want to email this revelation to all the DSLR makers who seem to be selling rather a lot of these cameras..
But yeah, I realise that none of this will do any good to an existing Sony owner who does not instead to buy a Canon S90 or similar.
After looking at some S90 images, bad DR..very clippy HL and shadow end, lens isn't looking awesome either, and erm it's £400 odd, not a hope that's up to the job.
 
Define a good quality compact?? Some are ok, many have rather hmm lenses, and some are pretty poor DR wise too. A few are pretty good, but then you start paying DSLR beating prices, which kinda kills part of the appeal
wow barry you must own so many compact cameras... so you can a DSLR in your pocket can you?
 
wow barry you must own so many compact cameras... so you can a DSLR in your pocket can you?
I've used a fair few, and IMO none offer the IQ of a DSLR, some do pretty well. The Canon S90 isn't one of them, have a look about..it's just a jumped up overpriced compact, that certainly does not offer DSLR IQ in any way.
 
wow barry you must own so many compact cameras... so you can a DSLR in your pocket can you?
I've used a fair few, and IMO none offer the IQ of a DSLR, some do pretty well. The Canon S90 isn't one of them, have a look about..it's just a jumped up overpriced compact, that certainly does not offer DSLR IQ in any way.
I think that is down to size restrictions and they are a compromise, but i find it a tad difficult to fit my SLR in my top pocket.But my very old TZ1 is able to return so really nice photographs. So its horses for courses... I also think my camera whne it was full price was also the same as same or close to some entry level SLRs
Technology cost money at all levels..
 
Bleh, then you people are in the minority. Most people almost never use a tripod. I may use a tripod for 0.01% of my shots. Macro photography? Use a flash, way more convenient.

I just see the whole MLU issue as a loud minority yelling and crying for the feature that 99.9% people aren't even aware of, let alone use.
Hey, chych - not a minority, but maybe misplaced. Higher-end landscape photography goes well with MLU just as, say, higher-end sports/action photography goes well with better AF, faster frame rates, fast glass. MLU is a tool that can take still life/landscape photography further - there's no doubt about it (Photo Techniques magazine published a well-done study, about two years back, where the author eliminated secondary factors and documented noticeable gains via MLU). There are a number of new users who, understandably, want to take action shots using slower lenses; it's not until they get a better education that they start to understand the limitations in AF and exposure (the latter of which would certainly be helped if Sony could get up to speed on higher-ISO IQ!).

Maybe the "misplacement," here, relates to the class of camera involved. Maybe the industry is standardizing on a system of using [what used to be standard film SLR features] as step-up/upgrade options. But back to the class of camera, I wouldn't expect the lower-end A2xx/A3xx bodies to AF track as well as an A700, nor would I expect the same frame rates (I'm staying within the Sony world, here, but it's true for C/N, Pentax, etc.). Margins are shrinking as the competition heats up (it's already much, much hotter than it was, even a few years ago). So I agree that the bulk of the new dSLR users aren't going to miss a lot of the more advanced features - because they don't know they exist, let alone that they could be helpful ... and that's probably the best way to go. If you look at sports/action, there's nobody who'd expect, say, a Digital Rebel to provide the performance of a (Canon) 7D - and I wouldn't expect an A2/3/5xx to deliver landscape quality similar to an A8/9xx. If we want better landscape shots (for the same skill set) we have to upgrade the glass and/or body.

I guess the one thing that CAN change, in this situation, is that we all just accept the way Sony's doing it. Beyond sending them feedback or changing brands, there's nothing else to be done - except maybe to end the "discussions" and post some images.

--
Rich

Pledging not to hide EXIF!

http://philosurfer.zenfolio.com/
 
I'd use the 2 or 10 second timer (assuming you also don't have remote release). (BTW, nice explanation, Walt!)

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Rich

Pledging not to hide EXIF!

http://philosurfer.zenfolio.com/
 
Maybe I am dumm, but could someone explain what MLU is - something I have missed...???
MLU stand for mirror lock up. In the old days it was normally a mechanical lever of sorts that you turned to lock the internal mirror out of the way of the shutter. This allowed for slower shutter speeds to be used without the picture coming out blurry by the actual vibration of the mirror as it moved. In Minolta, K/M, and Sony bodies it is usually a programmable option with the 2 second timer.

With my Canon and Nikon bodies you select MLU, hit the shutter release button once and the mirror moves up. Hit it again and the shutter fires.

For those that do slow speed or macro work it is pretty much a requirement if you want top notch images.
--
Long live the HMS Beagle
Critiques always welcome!
 
I agree with tbcass on this one. I don't think MLU will help much shooting at 8 or 10 seconds - certainly not as much as the differences in these two shots. The effect of the mirror slap w/o MLU will likely only affect the 1st 1/2 second or so of your photo - in this case only about 1/16 to 1/20 of the entire exposure - a very small effect. MLU is really most effective for shots in the 1/30 to 2 second range.
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AEH
http://aehass.zenfolio.com/
Question: What do you do all week?
Answer: Mon to Fri. Nothing, Sat & Sun I rest!
 
I don't think the absence of MLU will lead to horribly blurry landcapes.

But if anyone really is SO worried, then there are other choices, if one realises that DSLR is far from the only way:
  • larger format film cameras (which are the main tool of many of the greatest landscape photographers even today)
  • Leica M9 and other rangefinders cameras (all of which are film for the time being)
  • GF1 and E-P1/2 and all the similar cameras that are going to come ou in 2010 and 2011
  • quite a few higher-end compacts, which can provide very clean detail on 12mp photos at wide angle
So in the end, MLU is kind of a non-issue
Or one with a HUGE mirror w/ MLU :) I still use my Pentax 6x7 w/ Velvia for a lot of landscape work. But I like to do stitched landscapes with my A700 to. I also to a lot of backpacking and that 6x7 is very heavy, so I often take just the A700 instead.

Now I'm blown away by all these people that say they never use a tripod, I view a tripod as essential equipment even for beginners. I use either a tripod or monopod probably 70% of the time, and YES, IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

For those saying they don't use a tripod, try using one for a while, I bet you'll notice a difference too.
 
excellent advice, Walt.

I went to the ByThom site and read his great article--the second time I've read it, but certainly not too often. I think the first time I was sent to it from the Really Right Stuff site, when I was looking into buying a support system I could afford. (I ended up buying Giotto legs, an Acratech Gv2 head, and an RRS L-plate for my A700. Acratech doesn't make a plate for the A700. I don't have a lens heavier than my cz 85 f1.4 so this works pretty well.) Thanks for redirecting me to this article.

Something Thom said, though, confused me. I couldn't tell whether he was advising for or against using weight to improve stability. I see you recommend placing a bean bag on the camera. Is it not advisable to hang weight from the center post?
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Dulaney
A700; SAL 50 f1.4; SAL 18-250; CZ 85 f1.4
 
I don't think MLU will help much shooting at 8 or 10 seconds - certainly not as much as the differences in these two shots.
Not necessarily, and it looks clear to me that vibration is the issue. Fact is, that the mirror can cause a vibration that lasts a couple of seconds, which is quite a bit more than your estimate.
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Anthony Beach
 
As it is with many of these kind of posts, the responses are long on opinion and short on practical (and very well known) advice.

MLU is of advantage primarily in circumstances where you need a longer shutter speed and don't want to contribute to camera-shake and vibration. It has been shown in tests by reputable sources (and myself) to provide very noticeable gains in sharpness especially in the range of 1 to 1/15 of a second exposures, this in spite of some camera-maker's claims that mirror vibration has been reduced to negligible proportions in modern designs (if it really was in all situations, they wouldn't still offer it in high-end product).

There are circumstances where MLU is indeed effective in the comtrol of one more variable that may affect sharpness of an image. Those that are into the spontaneity of the moment may not get an advantage here. Those that carefully compose and control to obtain sharpness (read landscape photographer) value it; end of story.

--
Geoff
http://www.geoffreyschmidphotography.com
 
excellent advice, Walt.

I went to the ByThom site and read his great article--the second time I've read it, but certainly not too often. I think the first time I was sent to it from the Really Right Stuff site, when I was looking into buying a support system I could afford. (I ended up buying Giotto legs, an Acratech Gv2 head, and an RRS L-plate for my A700. Acratech doesn't make a plate for the A700. I don't have a lens heavier than my cz 85 f1.4 so this works pretty well.) Thanks for redirecting me to this article.
I have the RRS L plate but hate the way it bulks up the camera. So most of the time I use a Markins PS-90 which is a bottom plate for the a700 or a900 Very compact and out of the way and provides a proper anchor point for the wrist strap.

Note Acratech does make a universal L plate. Intended to be used with a plate on the camera like my Markins setup. I've been tempted to get one of those to put on when I need a L plate.

L plates need depends on what you shoot. Obviously of no need if shooting tele with their own feet and rotation. And if verticals are not a lot of your shooting ballheads can be shifted for vertical.

I decided quite a long time ago that trying to make a single tripod fit all my uses was a joke. So I've several. I've for the past couple years been working on deciding on and replacing those with lighter carbon fiber tripods each of which is selected for a different range of jobs. For my lightweight one right now I have the most recent Manfrotto 055 CF 4 section with Acratech Ultimate and Long Lens heads interchangably used on it. I'm still debating if I got the right legs there or if I should have gone Gitzo. But it did pretty well as a light hiking tripod on my west trip last spring.

Right now it's the heaviest duty of the set I'm assembling, primarily a long lens setup. Gitzo GT5541LS legs, with Wimberley II head to replace my 3021BPro with the original Wimberley head. The new head is a whole two lbs lighter than the original and 2" less height but a little improved over the original. That setup can certainly handle my current long lenses, and will handle anything we are likely to see out of Sony in the future in long lenses. At least anything I could afford.

Following that I can see there will be at least one more tripod. One that's less compromised to save weight compared to my hiking setup but not the beast that the long lens one is. I'm kind of looking at the GT3541XLS there as that one would also give me a extra tall tripod for some projects I'm into. Takes a couple lbs off the bigger legs. Could handle the long lenses I've got now with a little care.
Something Thom said, though, confused me. I couldn't tell whether he was advising for or against using weight to improve stability. I see you recommend placing a bean bag on the camera. Is it not advisable to hang weight from the center post?
There are various schools of thought on that. The weight from the center post can sometimes just pendalum on it's hanger so some are against it. The energy coming down the tripod from the mirror/shutter just passes right by, and wind shakes also are not subdued and may get worse. there are also weight platforms that attach to all three legs to get around the swinging that are probably better. Weight on the camera itself more directly couples to the energy coming from the mirror to dampen it but you cannot put a lot of weight there. Really you have to experiment with your setup and do a bunch of shooting to find out which is best for your setup under different conditions. It's not a one size fits all. Probably ideally that weight is the tripod itself, but then you have to cart it. I believe Thom leans towards the tripod itself having the right amount of weight rather than weighting a too light tripod. Only place I consider weighting is for the light hiking tripod.

The beanbag suggestion was for ways to experiment with lack of MLU. To get by that. It should not be needed if your tripod is good and sized properly and you have MLU.

The only thing to realize about Thom is he shoots certain types of photography and he's recommending based on his shooting. Mostly landscape I think as he mentions a 70-200 being his long lens. For macro his general advice is good but a straight simple up and down tripod will likely not be the best choice even though it's the best for vibration. In general his recommendations will work ok with smaller lenses, but he kind of glosses over long tele shooting. Wimberley, he's right, but the legs he's putting under it are a bit on the light side.

Walt
 

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