Canon E-TTL and E-TTL II flash impact on photos

fotodewan

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Currently I have Canon Speedlite380EX (E-TTL). Am I going to see any difference in my photos (better?), if I buy E-TTL II flash? I have Canon EOS 350D/Digital Rebel XT (thinking of buying Canon 5D Mark II).

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fotodewan
photos.raniasplace.com/gallery/
 
Hi, I don't think so. Your 350D is ETTL 11 capable. ETTL 11 is a camera body function that can utilise any Ex flashgun.

Having said that, I am not really familiar with the 380Ex and don't know its limitations, but I've never seen evidence of an exception to the rule above.
 
Currently I have Canon Speedlite380EX (E-TTL). Am I going to see any difference in my photos (better?), if I buy E-TTL II flash? I have Canon EOS 350D/Digital Rebel XT (thinking of buying Canon 5D Mark II).
No. Your present combo is E-TTL II (provided you use a compatible lens).

The difference between E-TTL and E-TTL II is that E-TTL II is capable of taking the focus distance as reported by the lens to the body into account when computing flash output. However, not all Canon lenses report focus distance to the body, but all newer lenses do.

Because the difference between E-TTL and E-TTL-II is in the body, not the flash, any E-TTL capable flash will give you E-TTL II metering when put on a E-TTL II capable EOS body (i.e. all Canon DSLRs except 1D, 1Ds, D30, D60, 10D and 300D) with an E-TTL-II compatible lens.
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– gisle [ See profile/plan for equipment list ]
 
Thank you for the reply. Currently I have EF 50 f/1.4, EF 24-105 f/4 L IS and EF 200 f/2.8 L. So in other words, to get the benefits of E-TTL II system, the camera body and lens have to be E-TTL II compatible even if the Speedlite is E-TTL 380EX (not E-TTL II). Correct me if I am wrong.

Secondly, Can I use Speedlite 380EX with EF 200mm lens (Speedlite 380EX covers 24mm to 105mm)? Sorry for the basic questions.
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fotodewan
photos.raniasplace.com/gallery
 
Yes, you can use the flash with the 200mm lens. The real thing YOU have to determine, is, do you get the results you want when using that combination??

As long as you are in the 70-105mm end of the zoom range, the eTTL metering and the flash should do a fair job illuminating the subjects. Zoom between 105mm and 200mm... and the flash's inability to focus the light beam narrower will result is a spread of light wider than the lens sees... wasted light, and possibly underexposing what you zoomed in on. Is this what you are experiencing?

If you intend to do "long range flash" on subjects (wildlife?)... you may want to consider a "better beamer"...which is a fresnel lens assembly that mounts on your flash and focuses the flash's beam much further.

Check the specifications of any flash you're considering to see their limits.
 
Thank you for the reply. Currently I have EF 50 f/1.4, EF 24-105 f/4 L IS and EF 200 f/2.8 L.
Both your L-lenses will give you E-TTL II with you present kit (EOS 350D and Speedlite 380EX). The EF 50 mm f/1.4 only supports E-TTL. Even if you bought the latest and greatest Canon camera and flash, the 50 mm f/1.4 would still give you only E-TTL.

However, the difference is not very noticable. E-TTL II is supposed to give you slightly more accurate exposure with backlit subjects - but the difference is very subtle.
So in other words, to get the benefits of E-TTL II system, the camera body and lens have to be E-TTL II compatible even if the Speedlite is E-TTL 380EX (not E-TTL II). Correct me if I am wrong.
That is correct. You will get the benefit of E-TTL II with two of your three lenses.

Just to make this clear: There are no special "E-TTL II" flashes. E-TTL II only depends on the body and lens. Sticking a "E-TTL II-compatible" sticker on a flash is just marketing.
Secondly, Can I use Speedlite 380EX with EF 200mm lens (Speedlite 380EX covers 24mm to 105mm)? Sorry for the basic questions.
Yes, of course. Some power will be wasted at the long end (so you will have a shorter reach), but that is the only negative effect.

At the other end, your flash will give you coverage to as wide as 15mm (not only 24 mm) because of the crop factor.
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– gisle [ See profile/plan for equipment list ]
 
that's not what the II is about

the original E-TTL used to link the flash emission and metering to the (spot) of the focus area active at the moment of the pre-flash

since it can easily drive to a disaster then the II enlarged the spot but also produced a new software capable (in theory) to compensate when the area right next to the focus point (now a bit bigger with the II) is a lot different.
it still can drive (easily) to a disaster but less (disaster)

plus the original E-TTL had a strange behavior when recomposing (trying to remember the previous metering and trying -with a little success- to compensate on its own with a terrible outcome most of the time. The II will not try to do that anymore (and that's good news)

I don't know of a big benefit (if none) coming from the distance reported by some lenses. the pre-flash still does all the work.

the best flash technology is still the auto thyristor that you can find on auto sunpak, vivitar, metz and quantum. There is no preflash and that alone is also a plus. But the main advantage comes with the fact that the sensor (thyristor) cuts off when the emission is enough. That will result in more predictable exposures , easier to compensate while e-ttl and e-ttlII are unpredictable, with "moods" not easy to understand and therefore compensate.

but you are correct about the fact that the II doesn't have much (I mean nothing) to do with the flash itself, but with the camera.
Thank you for the reply. Currently I have EF 50 f/1.4, EF 24-105 f/4 L IS and EF 200 f/2.8 L.
Both your L-lenses will give you E-TTL II with you present kit (EOS 350D and Speedlite 380EX). The EF 50 mm f/1.4 only supports E-TTL. Even if you bought the latest and greatest Canon camera and flash, the 50 mm f/1.4 would still give you only E-TTL.

However, the difference is not very noticable. E-TTL II is supposed to give you slightly more accurate exposure with backlit subjects - but the difference is very subtle.
So in other words, to get the benefits of E-TTL II system, the camera body and lens have to be E-TTL II compatible even if the Speedlite is E-TTL 380EX (not E-TTL II). Correct me if I am wrong.
That is correct. You will get the benefit of E-TTL II with two of your three lenses.

Just to make this clear: There are no special "E-TTL II" flashes. E-TTL II only depends on the body and lens. Sticking a "E-TTL II-compatible" sticker on a flash is just marketing.
Secondly, Can I use Speedlite 380EX with EF 200mm lens (Speedlite 380EX covers 24mm to 105mm)? Sorry for the basic questions.
Yes, of course. Some power will be wasted at the long end (so you will have a shorter reach), but that is the only negative effect.

At the other end, your flash will give you coverage to as wide as 15mm (not only 24 mm) because of the crop factor.
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– gisle [ See profile/plan for equipment list ]
 
Currently I have Canon Speedlite380EX (E-TTL). Am I going to see any difference in my photos (better?), if I buy E-TTL II flash? I have Canon EOS 350D/Digital Rebel XT (thinking of buying Canon 5D Mark II).
Contrary to widespread misinformation, there are differences between E-TTL and E-TTL II flash units. These differences only apply when using an E-TTL II flash on an E-TTL II camera body.

They are minor differences, especially compared to the difference between E-TTL and E-TTL II camera bodies, but the differences are there.

The two differences that I'm aware of are:

1) an E-TTL II flash unit communicates the color temperature of the flash to the camera. An E-TTL II camera will use this for the White Balance setting whenever the camera is set to Auto or Flash WB. With an E-TTL flash, the camera uses a preset value for Flash WB and Auto WB works the same way as for non-flash photos.

I'm personally not convinced that this is an advance because it affects AWB. When shooting in mixed light (tungsten+flash, for example), the camera cannot take the mixture into account, but at least with E-TTL you could try to use AWB to get something a little closer.

Also, the value communicated to the camera obviously does not include any gels that you've put over the flash. At least in this case you're probably going to use one of the other WB settings anyway, but with a full E-TTL II setup you do lose the AWB option.

2) an E-TTL II flash understands about crop sensors, and the E-TTL II camera tells the flash what its sensor size is. The E-TTL II flash zoom settings are appropriately adjusted for the focal length and the crop. With a crop camera, an E-TTL flash will put out a beam that is wider than necessary, and thus with slightly less reach.
 
Zoom between 105mm and 200mm... and the flash's inability to focus the light beam narrower will result is a spread of light wider than the lens sees... wasted light, and possibly underexposing what you zoomed in on.
This sentence is a bit misleading. The flash has a guide number for 105mm and above - in the case of the 380EX this is 38m. If you zoom the lens to 120mm, 200mm or 300mm the guide number is still 38m and E-TTL will work just as it would at 50mm (no underexposure).

There is however another issue when using flashes with focal lengths of 300mm and above. The flash light decays towards the edges of the frame (vigneting) and the brightest spot is above the center of the frame (because the flash head lays above the sensor-lens). Going for a very long tele is like cropping the center of the 105mm frame, which is slightly darker than the brightest spot. This means that the effective guide number at long focal lengths is slightly lower than the nominal value.

The amount of vigneting varies from flash to flash. Nissin adds a remark regarding the compatibility of the Di466 and Di622 with the Powershot SX10 IS stating that the GN drops at focal lengths of 300mm or longer.
If you intend to do "long range flash" on subjects (wildlife?)... you may want to consider a "better beamer"...which is a fresnel lens assembly that mounts on your flash and focuses the flash's beam much further.
Thanks for the hint! I didn't know about this product!

Regards, Anonimo
 
For what confort it might be, the difference between the two systems doesn't matter very much.

BAK
 
Great thread and info thanks guys.

I have another question that is related to this thread..

When I point my flash head upwards (580 ex II) using a Lumiquest bounce or 2 way bounce what happens to the zoom feature? Does it set itself at a certain zoom?

Thanks guys..
 
Great thread and info thanks guys.

I have another question that is related to this thread..

When I point my flash head upwards (580 ex II) using a Lumiquest bounce or 2 way bounce what happens to the zoom feature? Does it set itself at a certain zoom?

Thanks guys..
It seems to differ between flashes and brands. I believe that particular Canon model sets the zoom at 55mm, but its probably possible to change that setting manually if you use Manual Mode.

Not that it'll make an awful lot of difference - zoom heads work just like those BetterBeemer fresnels and simply focus the same light output over a larger or smaller area depending on the setting. Spoiling that focus by adding a diffuser will pretty much drop the effective GN to its minimum. Low power output just one of the limitations of every flash on the market that uses 4 AA batteries. When I started bouncing myself, I used two or more flashes just to be sure that I get enough light and that the recycle times can be made reasonable by using partial outputs. The older, bigger Metz's like the CT 60 are a completely different story. But the battery was a different story too! An external lead-acid unit that had to be carried seperately.

BG
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A squirrel in the hand is much harder to shoot than two in the bush!!
 
so an umbrella is not to be recommended for a strobe as well?

and don't even think about a softbox

not good because they steal the power (which is the most important thing.. who cares about the quality of the light bombarding the subject)

LOL

flashes are to be used straight, monolights, portable, everything?

is that so?

and for portable flashes you get to use external packs too, the recycling will stay the same (don't believe to the salesman trying to sell you the stuff: it has nothing to do with the recycling) but you get a lot more flashes

for example I use a quantum SC (and a tinycycler) but I do diffuse because a straight flash is ugly
Great thread and info thanks guys.

I have another question that is related to this thread..

When I point my flash head upwards (580 ex II) using a Lumiquest bounce or 2 way bounce what happens to the zoom feature? Does it set itself at a certain zoom?

Thanks guys..
It seems to differ between flashes and brands. I believe that particular Canon model sets the zoom at 55mm, but its probably possible to change that setting manually if you use Manual Mode.

Not that it'll make an awful lot of difference - zoom heads work just like those BetterBeemer fresnels and simply focus the same light output over a larger or smaller area depending on the setting. Spoiling that focus by adding a diffuser will pretty much drop the effective GN to its minimum. Low power output just one of the limitations of every flash on the market that uses 4 AA batteries. When I started bouncing myself, I used two or more flashes just to be sure that I get enough light and that the recycle times can be made reasonable by using partial outputs. The older, bigger Metz's like the CT 60 are a completely different story. But the battery was a different story too! An external lead-acid unit that had to be carried seperately.

BG
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A squirrel in the hand is much harder to shoot than two in the bush!!
 
Sorry for changing the subject on this thread but...

Me, B. Gavin, cityphotographer and maybe few others have posted on a thread initiated by glsmaster not long ago about a review of the Metz 58AF-1C published on http://photo-tips-online.com/ . Well, this and a subsequent thread (glsmaster published a test comparing the secondary reflector and the catchlight card of the Metz 58AF-1C) seem to have disapeared.

Can you access that thread?

Regards, Anonimo
 
so an umbrella is not to be recommended for a strobe as well?

and don't even think about a softbox

not good because they steal the power (which is the most important thing.. who cares about the quality of the light bombarding the subject)

LOL
Can't you read? He never ever said anything like that.

Mr Gavin is exactly right when he says that an omnibounce is basicly settings your flash-head to a 5mm setting. And indeed, that's totally useless for a bounced flash, because you're spreading the light in directions where it's totally uselless. That indeed only waste power. The best bounced flash is simply an unmodified flash at the wall or ceiling at the 50mm default setting.

A softbox or umbrella is a completely different matter. In that case, you simply want to fill the box/umbrella. Generally, 50mm work quite well there as well.
 
read my post again

can't you read?

I said what I said for a reason: diffusion is needed in flash photography, any
so an umbrella is not to be recommended for a strobe as well?

and don't even think about a softbox

not good because they steal the power (which is the most important thing.. who cares about the quality of the light bombarding the subject)

LOL
Can't you read? He never ever said anything like that.

Mr Gavin is exactly right when he says that an omnibounce is basicly settings your flash-head to a 5mm setting. And indeed, that's totally useless for a bounced flash, because you're spreading the light in directions where it's totally uselless. That indeed only waste power. The best bounced flash is simply an unmodified flash at the wall or ceiling at the 50mm default setting.

A softbox or umbrella is a completely different matter. In that case, you simply want to fill the box/umbrella. Generally, 50mm work quite well there as well.
 
that's not what the II is about

the original E-TTL used to link the flash emission and metering to the (spot) of the focus area active at the moment of the pre-flash
Correct....
since it can easily drive to a disaster then the II enlarged the spot but also produced a new software capable (in theory) to compensate when the area right next to the focus point (now a bit bigger with the II) is a lot different.
Total nonsense. E-TTL II does not care about focus spots at all. I don't know where you got this enlarged spot from... it simply doesn't exist.

Because people didn't understand how to use E-TTL, (i.e. don't focus & recompose, unless you FEL first) Canon make a completely different system, that doesn't rely on focus point at all. E-TTL-II's compares the ambient light with the preflash light, and from that can distinquish foreground from background, and also compares it to what it expects from the focus distance
I don't know of a big benefit (if none) coming from the distance reported by some lenses. the pre-flash still does all the work.
Then you apparantly haven't used it much... Distance information is a very important part of E-TTL-II, even in bounced flash. I noticed that when I accidently had my polarizer still on my lens... all my flash pictures got underexposed. Remove the filter, everything was ok.

With E-TTL this doesn't matter, because it just measures light. E-TTL-II however, knows from the distance information, how much light it should get from the subject. That however, has the assumption in it, that there's no polarizer or ND on the lens. (Which ofcourse, you never have when you use flash...)

In principle, when used as a direct flash without modifiers, the distance information itself is enough to set the flash exposure. (Simply GN divided by distance!) E-TTL-II basicly extends this idea, so that it also works with bounced flash. Only breaks down when someone is stupid enough to leave his polarizer on the lens...
the best flash technology is still the auto thyristor that you can find on auto sunpak, vivitar, metz and quantum. There is no preflash and that alone is also a plus. But the main advantage comes with the fact that the sensor (thyristor) cuts off when the emission is enough. That will result in more predictable exposures ,
You're kidding, right? It mostly leads to predictable wrong exposures. Almost all auto flashes overexpose the subject, simply because they can't distinquish between subject and background. And it's impossible to expose both properly with one flash. Worse, they also don't know the field of view, so they typically add part of the scene to the metering that are irrelevant, or leave parts you that are relevant, depending on your focal distance.

Auto-flash basicly assumes that you're shooting a certain field of view, with a certain subject size, a certain background distance, and then gives a good exposure. Deviate from any of these assumptions, and the exposure is off. It's way more unpredictabel than E-TTL-II.

What typically happens, is that an auto-flash primairily exposes for the background, and hardly sees the subject. The photographer then adds FEC, to get good subject exposure, then another subject at the same distance from that background also get correct exposure. Basicly, you're just performing a manual flash setup then. Some people confuse that with predictabel exposure...
 

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