Disgusting

Mark Ehlers · Nov 27, 2009

I'm never going to be able to afford one. And even if I could, I wouldn't bother.

But either way, why would anyone be bothered if Leica produces these cameras?
And why would anyone even be bothered if someone buys them?

If anything, I hope they sell all they make. It can't hurt the company to do that.
--

Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

RaajS · Nov 27, 2009

Agreed that Rich does not equal smart, but the converse is also true - not rich does not equal smart or having good taste. There also a lot of sociopaths who aren't rich. I'm pretty sure a deep analysis would reveal a normal distribution.

By saying "Hermes Leicas are just Walmart crap for the "stupid" rich" you're passing judgement with an implied assumption that you have an absolute and unassailable datum to do so. All you can really say is that YOU would not buy something like that. I'll leave you to think about what asserting that someone else's taste is inferior to yours is indicative of.

Your further assertion connecting such taste to Bernie Maddoff (not Matoff, btw) appears to me to be a quantum jump in logic.

As my mother has always said - "There will always be someone richer, smarter and better-looking than any given person. That doesn't have any connotation to a person's intrinsic value."

Live long and prosper.
-raaj

Jack Palmer said:
Rich doesn't equal smart or having good taste. There are a lot of sociopaths that bilk others out of their money and a lot of unethical ways to get rich The Hermes Leicas are just Walmart crap for the "stupid" rich. But if you like them wear them with pride even if you would look like a fool except maybe to another stupid rich friend.Ownership would show about the same taste in material possessions as Bernie Matoff had. About zero.

--
'Change is not Mandatory, you don't have to Survive...'

Jim Radcliffe · Nov 27, 2009

Mark Ehlers said:
But either way, why would anyone be bothered if Leica produces these cameras?

To me it cheapens the brand... even though someone is paying stupid money for one of these boutique/collectables. It's that simple.. it just seems cheesy to me.

Mark Ehlers said:
And why would anyone even be bothered if someone buys them?

It doesn't bother me that someone buys them.. just that Leica makes them. If you've got money to throw at such "collectible" items, more power to you.. but as a brand.. this seems to continue put forth the idea that Leicas are rich men's toys and status symbols.

Mark Ehlers said:
If anything, I hope they sell all they make. It can't hurt the company to do that.

From a revenue stream.. you are correct.. but from an image standpoint, I think this practice does hurt the company... but as I said, it doesn't matter what I think.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

Yhbv24 · Nov 27, 2009

It's certainly amazing what people choose to spend their money on. What's more amazing is the fact that people love to show how much money they earn (if they indeed worked for it) by buying things. I don't understand the point, really. But that is another discussion.

The Hermes Leica, and basically all Leica cameras these days, are extremely overpriced for what you get. It seems that their market isn't photographers, but wealthy people that want to set themselves apart from the rest of the gearhead/camera crowd.

That said, does Leica make great products? Yes. Are they better than products offered by Canon and Nikon, or other companies. Depends on your criteria.

But, those products apparently sell, so Leica continues to make them.

However, there are social issues much worse than Leica's overpriced cameras. US corporations running sweatshops abroad? CEOs getting paid millions (by taxpayers) for running companies into the ground? Testing drugs on the populations of third world countries? Those are more serious issues, I think, than Leica charging too much for cameras.
--
http://www.ashlaidlawphoto.com/

Elliot H · Nov 27, 2009

Yhbv24 said:
However, there are social issues much worse than Leica's overpriced cameras. US corporations running sweatshops abroad? ^ and you own things made in those sweatshops CEOs getting paid millions (by taxpayers) for running companies into the ground? * don't blame the bail-out artists Testing drugs on the populations of third world countries? which drugs were tested only on a third world country which didn't ask desparately for the help Those are more serious issues, I think, than Leica charging too much for cameras. the silliest issue is the mentality of the buyers of these silly silly cameras. Reminds me of the collectors of MontBlanc "limited edition" writing instruments. Those who love/USE/collect fine vintage writing instruments, laugh out loud at these created collectables for many good reasons. But, hey, MontBlanc needs/wants the money.
--
http://www.ashlaidlawphoto.com/

Elliot H · Nov 27, 2009

Elliot H said:
Yhbv24 said:

However, there are social issues much worse than Leica's overpriced cameras. US corporations running sweatshops abroad? ^ and you own things made in those sweatshops CEOs getting paid millions (by taxpayers) for running companies into the ground? * don't blame the bail-out artists Testing drugs on the populations of third world countries? which drugs were tested only on a third world country which didn't ask desparately for the help Those are more serious issues, I think, than Leica charging too much for cameras. the silliest issue is the mentality of the buyers of these silly silly cameras. Reminds me of the collectors of MontBlanc "limited edition" writing instruments. Those who love/USE/collect fine vintage writing instruments, laugh out loud at these created collectables for many good reasons. But, hey, MontBlanc needs/wants the money.
--
http://www.ashlaidlawphoto.com/

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reply is within above para, BOLD option didn't work, excuse please

ricko5 · Nov 27, 2009

thanks to all for the replies.
I do feel I have to personally defend myself against this garbage though...

allaboutglass said:
ricko5 said:

Is anybody else sickened by Leica's made-to-be-collectable release strategy and their absolute mickey-taking when it comes to pricing?

Click to expand...

No! On the contrary, I'm delighted!

Good for you, I did ask and you gave me an answer well done and thanks!

allaboutglass said:
allaboutglass said:

I refer of course to the visually disgusting and horrendously expensive bright orange Hermes special edition M7.

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Mate...you're from, or at least live in Manchester! I rest my case on this one, the less said the better

This being a public forum that is obviously my own opinion. Without stooping to the low jab of having a go at where someone comes from which you seem to be attempting, you do know I'm talking about Manchester, England, don't you? A place that (considering you are the centre of the universe) is obviously so low on your list I would imagine you have never actually been to and you almost certainly couldn't tell the difference between it and any other British city (except for London) and thus you would realize that it is, and always has been a progressive and influential city of music and culture in this country and beyond. If you would like to elaborate on your view of Manchester then feel free - maybe I could educate you a little.

allaboutglass said:
allaboutglass said:

A brand new M7 in the UK is around £2,800. The new Hermes is £8,500. Yes, eight-and-a-half-grand. That is three times the price for a camera that by Leica's own admission is technically the same machine.

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and your point is???????

Read the rest of the post for the point, if you didn't get the point why did you bother replying?

allaboutglass said:
allaboutglass said:

'Just don't buy it then' I hear you cry. Don't worry - I won't / can't / don't want to.

Click to expand...

"Can't" being the very operative causing the angry, verbal diarrhea spewing from the annals of your socialists, distorted, idealisms.

Hilarious. Actually, "Socialist" is probably the biggest insult you could throw at me. I sold all my film Leica gear by my own choice because I found it easier to make money with more modern systems and developers who are competing to give us working pros better features, not cosmetic nonsense. I don't have any annals - lets put that down to your poor choice of words for now. I'm expressing my view on a public forum and inviting opinions from others (for or against), hardly "distorted idealism" is it?

allaboutglass said:
allaboutglass said:

If collectors are rich and bone-headed enough to fork out these stupid prices for Leica's gimmicks with a view to cashing in on them in the future then that's one thing - but Leica as a company should be made to pay a large sum of their huge profits from these things to charity as it is clearly overkill and they are basically exploiting some (rich) people's stupidity by manufacturing their own collectables in such a shameless and sickening manner.

Click to expand...

So according to you, rich people equal "bone-headed and stupid"? Well let me ask you how do you think they we became rich and successful if we are as you claim "bone-headed and stupid"? More to the point, if we are that "Bone-headed", how come we're rich and you're not?

Er... No. Read the first word... "IF". I am not labeling all rich people as being bone headed or stupid, don't be ridiculous - read the text properly and stop looking for cheap jibes. I am merely saying IF SOME COLLECTORS ARE that way and putting it in context with the issue. You missed the point completely. If you personally are rich then good for you - I am sure you work your backside off and probably deserve every cent you have. Either that or you have won / inherited a fortune - it really doesn't matter. Don't confuse being successful with being rich though. Only stupid people fail to realize they can be two separate things.

Its just a shame you didn't put the same effort into a constructive reply or opinion other than "I'm delighted" which seems to be the only direct response you managed before you started muck slinging. Genius.

Thank all the same.

Jack Palmer · Nov 27, 2009

Matoff, Maddoff or Made-off a scum bag by any spelling. Bernie had money but bad taste. The Hermes Leica is the kind of expensive object that he would probably be attracted to. The people that find these "made for the wealthy" objects desirable seldom actually really use them for their intended purpose. They just want to impress their other wealthy friends with equally bad taste. It's like a big circle jerk of the wealthy. In truth they wouldn't know a Monet from Mayonnaise.

RaajS said:
Agreed that Rich does not equal smart, but the converse is also true - not rich does not equal smart or having good taste. There also a lot of sociopaths who aren't rich. I'm pretty sure a deep analysis would reveal a normal distribution.

By saying "Hermes Leicas are just Walmart crap for the "stupid" rich" you're passing judgement with an implied assumption that you have an absolute and unassailable datum to do so. All you can really say is that YOU would not buy something like that. I'll leave you to think about what asserting that someone else's taste is inferior to yours is indicative of.

Your further assertion connecting such taste to Bernie Maddoff (not Matoff, btw) appears to me to be a quantum jump in logic.

As my mother has always said - "There will always be someone richer, smarter and better-looking than any given person. That doesn't have any connotation to a person's intrinsic value."

Live long and prosper.
-raaj

Jack Palmer said:

Rich doesn't equal smart or having good taste. There are a lot of sociopaths that bilk others out of their money and a lot of unethical ways to get rich The Hermes Leicas are just Walmart crap for the "stupid" rich. But if you like them wear them with pride even if you would look like a fool except maybe to another stupid rich friend.Ownership would show about the same taste in material possessions as Bernie Matoff had. About zero.

Click to expand...

--
'Change is not Mandatory, you don't have to Survive...'

rollei53 · Nov 27, 2009

Jim Radcliffe said:
Member said:

Member said:

ehazera said:

Have you ever owned or used a Leica?

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Click to expand...

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This is one of those retorts to posts that should be outlawed. Asking if someone has ever owned or used a Leica assumes that common sense is only gained from ownership or use.

First of All there was no sign of "common sense" in the original post. It was a rant using radical and snobbish descriptive terms. And if he had been commenting on any other product, such as Adobe software, computer equipment, diamond jewelry, custom or sports automobile - anything but Leica - he would have been immediatley discounted as a nutjob by everyone including yourself and the questioin would have been asked: "who cares what he thinks its worth ?"

Secondly, knowing the 'proper' use of a Leica (or any rangefinder camera) and it's value is not a matter of common sense - not even for a photographer - and 'is' only "gained from ownershiip or use" (and that's not even a guarantee). The rangefinder (Leica or otherwise) is the most mis-understood of all cameras and guess what - they're not mis-understood by non-photographers. They're mis-understood by photographers - by non-rangefinder users first and (unfortunately) users second. It's like a jet pilot expecting to be able to hop in a specialized helecopter without experience and thinking/ranting it's supposed to fly the same or it's crap. I'll bet if you were his passenger the question: "have you ever used one?" would not be a question that should be "outlawed" - but a question that was a great deal more "valid" than the pilot's "opinion".

Member said:
There are many things I have never owned or used but I have opinions on them. I don't have to make a movie to appreciate one, nor write a book to enjoy reading one.

And you can enjoy viewing a photograph without ever having taken a picture - but you wouldn't ridicule the photographer's, or movie maker's or book writers' choice of equipment without having had personal experience. If you did that would be - well - stupid!

Member said:
Member said:

Member said:

Leica has always been overpriced... and that's before you get to their "collectors versions".

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Member said:

Overpriced by who's criteria? An item is worth whatever the perceived value is. To you it isn't worth it, to me it is! It really is as simple as that.

Click to expand...

Perceived value? That's the real problem with Leica, isn't it?

And a problem with Adobe software, computers, and diamonds, etc. I'll bet the OP (as well as yourself) have bought those products many times over. I must have missed the OP's ranting on those concerns in the original post. What about Canon/Nikon cameras. Come on! I know you've priced Canon/Nikon upper end cameras. What's their excuse? They're punching their product out (mass producing) in numbers that dwarf Leica's and Leica is right in the ball park price-wise on their cameras. Their lenses are high but are much rarer than diamonds and much more expensive to produce. Also the lenses greatly out-perform their competition - and that's not an "opinion" - that's a benchmark fact.

Member said:
The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

This is the one thing you've said that I wholeheartedly agree with.

rollei53 · Nov 27, 2009

Amen! Good question! I felt the need to defend your asking by responding to another's post in the string.

Vieri Bottazzini · Nov 28, 2009

Jack Palmer said:
Matoff, Maddoff or Made-off a scum bag by any spelling. Bernie had money but bad taste. The Hermes Leica is the kind of expensive object that he would probably be attracted to. The people that find these "made for the wealthy" objects desirable seldom actually really use them for their intended purpose. They just want to impress their other wealthy friends with equally bad taste. It's like a big circle jerk of the wealthy. In truth they wouldn't know a Monet from Mayonnaise.

So, they used just for their intended purpose: collect them and show them to their friends...

I'd rather buy cameras that I can use without:

a. walking around with an idiotic-looking orange camera;

b. being worried that each time I click the shutter I depreciate it by a few hundred bucks.

But then again, this is why I use an MP & an M2: I am into photography, not collecting. However, Leica creates these special editions for either rich people with bad taste (IMHO at least, because as we know there is no account for taste), or for collectors/investors which will never even break the seal on the box. In either case, it doesn't bother me in the least, if it helps their bottom line and helps them keep making cameras & lenses than i can actually buy and use.

Best,

Vieri

--
equipment in profile

portfolios:
http://www.madshutter.com

expanded galleries:
http://www.pbase.com/vieripbase

Chris59 · Nov 28, 2009

allaboutglass said:
ricko5 said:

Is anybody else sickened by Leica's made-to-be-collectable release strategy and their absolute mickey-taking when it comes to pricing?

Click to expand...

No! On the contrary, I'm delighted!

That says quite a bit about you...

allaboutglass said:
allaboutglass said:

I refer of course to the visually disgusting and horrendously expensive bright orange Hermes special edition M7.

Click to expand...

Mate...you're from, or at least live in Manchester! I rest my case on this one, the less said the better

Perhaps, but some of us live in much nicer parts of the world (Gisborne, Victoria) and agree with what he says. Where he lives is part accident of birth/circumstance and says nothing about the value of his opinion. Your comments say a lot more about you !

allaboutglass said:
allaboutglass said:

A brand new M7 in the UK is around £2,800. The new Hermes is £8,500. Yes, eight-and-a-half-grand. That is three times the price for a camera that by Leica's own admission is technically the same machine.

Click to expand...

and your point is???????

The point is that it is a ripoff and if you have to ask the question, you have more money than sense.

allaboutglass said:
allaboutglass said:

'Just don't buy it then' I hear you cry. Don't worry - I won't / can't / don't want to.

Click to expand...

"Can't" being the very operative causing the angry, verbal diarrhea spewing from the annals of your socialists, distorted, idealisms.

Now you are putting your words into the OPs mouth. I can't afford to waste the asking price for the camera either, but I don't aspire to - which is more to the point. Your thinly veiled accusation of jealousy is way off the mark and in psychological term is called "projection" - look it up.

allaboutglass said:
allaboutglass said:

If collectors are rich and bone-headed enough to fork out these stupid prices for Leica's gimmicks with a view to cashing in on them in the future then that's one thing - but Leica as a company should be made to pay a large sum of their huge profits from these things to charity as it is clearly overkill and they are basically exploiting some (rich) people's stupidity by manufacturing their own collectables in such a shameless and sickening manner.

Click to expand...

So according to you, rich people equal "bone-headed and stupid"? Well let me ask you how do you think they we became rich and successful if we are as you claim "bone-headed and stupid"? More to the point, if we are that "Bone-headed", how come we're rich and you're not?

You could have inherited it, gotten lucky or were just plain unscrupulous or a criminal. If you were an astute businessman, hardworking and/or careful with your money you wouldn't be stupid enough to want an orange Leica.

allaboutglass said:
allaboutglass said:

It will never happen, but one day when I am old I hope to be watching the Antiques Roadshow when someone brings on one of Lieca's "special editions" from a previous decade, only to be told that they are worth next to nothing due to a massive moral backlash in the early part of the 21st century against the greed of a company that just didn't know when to stop.

Click to expand...

--
'Besides, BOOOOKEHHHH is a quick, cheap-shot way for people who cannot compose
properly to con others into thinking they are the next Cartier Bresson'

~~aag~~

Chris59 · Nov 28, 2009

Jim Radcliffe said:
Mark Ehlers said:

But either way, why would anyone be bothered if Leica produces these cameras?

Click to expand...

To me it cheapens the brand... even though someone is paying stupid money for one of these boutique/collectables. It's that simple.. it just seems cheesy to me.

Agreed.

Member said:
Member said:

And why would anyone even be bothered if someone buys them?

Click to expand...

It doesn't bother me that someone buys them.. just that Leica makes them. If you've got money to throw at such "collectible" items, more power to you.. but as a brand.. this seems to continue put forth the idea that Leicas are rich men's toys and status symbols.

Member said:

If anything, I hope they sell all they make. It can't hurt the company to do that.

Click to expand...

From a revenue stream.. you are correct.. but from an image standpoint, I think this practice does hurt the company... but as I said, it doesn't matter what I think.

You are too modest. What people think is and should be more important than who they are, what they do or what power they have because it is ideas which drive mankind. Those with the personality to promote good ideas come after.

Member said:
--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

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