Panasonic G1: Why bother with RAW?

Before you get bent out of shape, first I should remind you that I've ALWAYS shot raw with all my cameras.

However, maybe I'm missing something here.

If I shoot RAW using my G1, I see absolutely no way to alter the camera parameters in either Slkypix or Panasonic studio.

What I'm referring to, is the ability to change the setting used in RAW, to something more desirable.

Using my Nikon, I would shoot NEF (raw), and then have access to the exact raw settings in the software.

Panasonic needs to make some proprietary software ASAP, if they want to contend in the DSLR market.

I use Lightroom and it works great. Far better range and detail than in JPG.

Did you modify the default LR settings?

FlyPenFly said:

I use Lightroom and it works great. Far better range and detail than in JPG.

Click to expand...

Anthony said:

Before you get bent out of shape, first I should remind you that I've ALWAYS shot raw with all my cameras.

However, maybe I'm missing something here.

If I shoot RAW using my G1, I see absolutely no way to alter the camera parameters in either Slkypix or Panasonic studio.

What I'm referring to, is the ability to change the setting used in RAW, to something more desirable.

Using my Nikon, I would shoot NEF (raw), and then have access to the exact raw settings in the software.

Panasonic needs to make some proprietary software ASAP, if they want to contend in the DSLR market.

Click to expand...

I'm failing to parse at all what your are saying here, completely mystified. It is RAW, you can process it anyway you want in any piece of software. I think I'm just failing to understand what you are driving at, of course you can alter just about every parameter imaginable in Silkypix - so you must be talking about something else...

I find the last statement totally perplexing, in general both the Nikon and Canon offerings for software are garbage compared to the third party alternatives, why on earth would a smaller company like Panasonic waste resources on yet another also ran piece of junk proprietary software? I do think manufacturers should provide a free option for RAW processing with the camera - Canon does this with a proprietary piece of software and Panasonic provides a license restricted 3rd party option - what's not to like?

Again, I sense I'm completely missing the gist of your post somehow...
--
Ken W

Rebel XT, XTi, Pany G1, LX3, FZ28, Fuji F30, and a lot of 35mm and 4x5 sitting in the closet...

I have always shot jpg. One reason was disk space, another is concern about not being able to process proprietary raw formats in the future. My FZ50 could not shoot raw plus high quality JPG so I rarely used RAW with it. The G1 can shoot raw plus quality JPG, but I hadn't made much use of it. Then recently I took some pictures of a local river in JPG and was very unhappy with the results. So I went back in a few days and shot RAW+JPG. This was a revelation to me. It is true that frequently I cannot tell the difference in the final results between RAW and JPG. But it is also clear that in some cases I have been unable to achieve the same results with JPG and it isn't even an issue with dynamic range. I just can't get the right color tones in the JPG files.

I use Lightroom and I am very happy with the initial settings for RW2 processing. I always do additional processing, but it is way better than the jpg as a starting point in at least some cases.

So I think from now on I'm going to shoot RAW+JPG, load both into Lightroom, then throw away one or the other. I'm still grappling with whether to convert to DNG so I have more faith that I will be able to process these files years in the future. And yes, a number of RAW formats have been dropped already from the standard tools, and no, you cannot count on, say, an old version of SilkyPix working on future versions of OS software.

Judy

kenw said:

Anthony said:

Before you get bent out of shape, first I should remind you that I've ALWAYS shot raw with all my cameras.

However, maybe I'm missing something here.

If I shoot RAW using my G1, I see absolutely no way to alter the camera parameters in either Slkypix or Panasonic studio.

What I'm referring to, is the ability to change the setting used in RAW, to something more desirable.

Using my Nikon, I would shoot NEF (raw), and then have access to the exact raw settings in the software.

Panasonic needs to make some proprietary software ASAP, if they want to contend in the DSLR market.

Click to expand...

I'm failing to parse at all what your are saying here, completely mystified. It is RAW, you can process it anyway you want in any piece of software. I think I'm just failing to understand what you are driving at, of course you can alter just about every parameter imaginable in Silkypix - so you must be talking about something else...

I find the last statement totally perplexing, in general both the Nikon and Canon offerings for software are garbage compared to the third party alternatives, why on earth would a smaller company like Panasonic waste resources on yet another also ran piece of junk proprietary software? I do think manufacturers should provide a free option for RAW processing with the camera - Canon does this with a proprietary piece of software and Panasonic provides a license restricted 3rd party option - what's not to like?

Again, I sense I'm completely missing the gist of your post somehow...
--
Ken W

Rebel XT, XTi, Pany G1, LX3, FZ28, Fuji F30, and a lot of 35mm and 4x5 sitting in the closet...

Click to expand...

Ken,

Here's what I'm saying:

Let's say I take a picture in RAW, with the G1 in "Vibrant" mode. Afterwards, I realize that the picture would have been nicer in "standard" mode. I would like to be able to switch between camera settings in the software. Basically, all the raw paramaters become useless, because, SilkyPix has its own names for its different color settings, and it becomes a guessing game.

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something.

Could you clarify ? I'm not sure i understand you at all.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photoanalysis/

Anthony said:

kenw said:

Anthony said:

Before you get bent out of shape, first I should remind you that I've ALWAYS shot raw with all my cameras.

However, maybe I'm missing something here.

If I shoot RAW using my G1, I see absolutely no way to alter the camera parameters in either Slkypix or Panasonic studio.

What I'm referring to, is the ability to change the setting used in RAW, to something more desirable.

Using my Nikon, I would shoot NEF (raw), and then have access to the exact raw settings in the software.

Panasonic needs to make some proprietary software ASAP, if they want to contend in the DSLR market.

Click to expand...

I'm failing to parse at all what your are saying here, completely mystified. It is RAW, you can process it anyway you want in any piece of software. I think I'm just failing to understand what you are driving at, of course you can alter just about every parameter imaginable in Silkypix - so you must be talking about something else...

I find the last statement totally perplexing, in general both the Nikon and Canon offerings for software are garbage compared to the third party alternatives, why on earth would a smaller company like Panasonic waste resources on yet another also ran piece of junk proprietary software? I do think manufacturers should provide a free option for RAW processing with the camera - Canon does this with a proprietary piece of software and Panasonic provides a license restricted 3rd party option - what's not to like?

Again, I sense I'm completely missing the gist of your post somehow...
--
Ken W

Rebel XT, XTi, Pany G1, LX3, FZ28, Fuji F30, and a lot of 35mm and 4x5 sitting in the closet...

Click to expand...

Ken,

Here's what I'm saying:

Let's say I take a picture in RAW, with the G1 in "Vibrant" mode. Afterwards, I realize that the picture would have been nicer in "standard" mode. I would like to be able to switch between camera settings in the software. Basically, all the raw paramaters become useless, because, SilkyPix has its own names for its different color settings, and it becomes a guessing game.

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something.

Click to expand...

The in-camera film modes for the G1 (such as "vibrant") only effect the JPEG images, NOT the RAW images.

In a RAW developer software like Silkypix you get to adjust it however you choose.

Joe

Anthony said:

kenw said:

Anthony said:

Before you get bent out of shape, first I should remind you that I've ALWAYS shot raw with all my cameras.

However, maybe I'm missing something here.

If I shoot RAW using my G1, I see absolutely no way to alter the camera parameters in either Slkypix or Panasonic studio.

What I'm referring to, is the ability to change the setting used in RAW, to something more desirable.

Using my Nikon, I would shoot NEF (raw), and then have access to the exact raw settings in the software.

Panasonic needs to make some proprietary software ASAP, if they want to contend in the DSLR market.

Click to expand...

I'm failing to parse at all what your are saying here, completely mystified. It is RAW, you can process it anyway you want in any piece of software. I think I'm just failing to understand what you are driving at, of course you can alter just about every parameter imaginable in Silkypix - so you must be talking about something else...

I find the last statement totally perplexing, in general both the Nikon and Canon offerings for software are garbage compared to the third party alternatives, why on earth would a smaller company like Panasonic waste resources on yet another also ran piece of junk proprietary software? I do think manufacturers should provide a free option for RAW processing with the camera - Canon does this with a proprietary piece of software and Panasonic provides a license restricted 3rd party option - what's not to like?

Again, I sense I'm completely missing the gist of your post somehow...
--
Ken W

Rebel XT, XTi, Pany G1, LX3, FZ28, Fuji F30, and a lot of 35mm and 4x5 sitting in the closet...

Click to expand...

Ken,

Here's what I'm saying:

Let's say I take a picture in RAW, with the G1 in "Vibrant" mode. Afterwards, I realize that the picture would have been nicer in "standard" mode. I would like to be able to switch between camera settings in the software. Basically, all the raw paramaters become useless, because, SilkyPix has its own names for its different color settings, and it becomes a guessing game.

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something.

Click to expand...

If "vibrant" looks too "vibrant" and you took the image in raw , then you have a lot of potential to change the image to whatever you want. Lower the saturation, lower the contrast, boost the shadows, etc. Don't get too caught up in names. Also, I believe the "Vibrant" setting applies ony to jpeg.

Fran

Judy, if you wanna be a 100% certain of your files being accessable in the future, I think uncompressed 16 bits TIFF is the way to go, and just burn them on dvd. Of course JPG will hold equally strong, but with that format you just loose way too much. Only thing you loose with TIFF is shelf space for the dvd-wallets.

BUT you could make it your habit to save your RAW files from LR as "original", thus making LR add a tiny XMP-file to the RAW's. For quite a while you'll have programs at hand that can read your RAWs . Now when somewhere in the faraway future you fear your RAWs will become unreadable, you take your (then) old LR-version, batch convert all your old RAWs+XMPs into TIFFs or whatever at that mo the standard will be, and you're done.

Only, don't delete your RAWs, not even if you decide to keep your JPGs. In a few years your skills may have developed beyond what you now think is your limit, and then you may wanna go back to old pics and do them better. Remember, along with your skills, your critical senses develop!

I understand what he's asking...

Pany doesn't have a way to duplicate camera settings once the image is transferred to the PC. In other words, if you like the Panasonic image settings, the only way to get them is to create JPGs inside the camera. LR and other software doesn't have prebuilt settings that are meant to duplicate Pany's in-camera settings.

Color/contrast/sharpening aside (I don't think losing Pany color is any great loss), I would be concerned about getting the lens correction algorithm correct. I don't have the Pany. Any comments from existing owners.

fsmith said:

Anthony said:

kenw said:

Anthony said:

Before you get bent out of shape, first I should remind you that I've ALWAYS shot raw with all my cameras.

However, maybe I'm missing something here.

If I shoot RAW using my G1, I see absolutely no way to alter the camera parameters in either Slkypix or Panasonic studio.

What I'm referring to, is the ability to change the setting used in RAW, to something more desirable.

Using my Nikon, I would shoot NEF (raw), and then have access to the exact raw settings in the software.

Panasonic needs to make some proprietary software ASAP, if they want to contend in the DSLR market.

Click to expand...

I'm failing to parse at all what your are saying here, completely mystified. It is RAW, you can process it anyway you want in any piece of software. I think I'm just failing to understand what you are driving at, of course you can alter just about every parameter imaginable in Silkypix - so you must be talking about something else...

I find the last statement totally perplexing, in general both the Nikon and Canon offerings for software are garbage compared to the third party alternatives, why on earth would a smaller company like Panasonic waste resources on yet another also ran piece of junk proprietary software? I do think manufacturers should provide a free option for RAW processing with the camera - Canon does this with a proprietary piece of software and Panasonic provides a license restricted 3rd party option - what's not to like?

Again, I sense I'm completely missing the gist of your post somehow...
--
Ken W

Rebel XT, XTi, Pany G1, LX3, FZ28, Fuji F30, and a lot of 35mm and 4x5 sitting in the closet...

Click to expand...

Ken,

Here's what I'm saying:

Let's say I take a picture in RAW, with the G1 in "Vibrant" mode. Afterwards, I realize that the picture would have been nicer in "standard" mode. I would like to be able to switch between camera settings in the software. Basically, all the raw paramaters become useless, because, SilkyPix has its own names for its different color settings, and it becomes a guessing game.

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something.

Click to expand...

If "vibrant" looks too "vibrant" and you took the image in raw , then you have a lot of potential to change the image to whatever you want. Lower the saturation, lower the contrast, boost the shadows, etc. Don't get too caught up in names. Also, I believe the "Vibrant" setting applies ony to jpeg.

Fran

Click to expand...

This I did not know. In my pervious cameras, I could alter settings in Raw, then have the same settings available in the raw software.

So if "Vibrant" only applies to jpg,why isit available in the menu when using raw?

By fiddling around with contrast saturation vibrancy etc. you can find a collection of settings which you like. Store those settings

I don't bother at all with Raw with G1. Too slow. In fact I use Raw little with my other cameras. Life is too short!

DougRight said:

I understand what he's asking...

Pany doesn't have a way to duplicate camera settings once the image is transferred to the PC. In other words, if you like the Panasonic image settings, the only way to get them is to create JPGs inside the camera. LR and other software doesn't have prebuilt settings that are meant to duplicate Pany's in-camera settings.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

DougRight said:

Color/contrast/sharpening aside (I don't think losing Pany color is any great loss), I would be concerned about getting the lens correction algorithm correct. I don't have the Pany. Any comments from existing owners.

Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, the Panny color is nothing special, but to me, part of the fun is taking pictures , and experimenting with the various camera settings, after the shot.

For when you shoot RAW with Jpeg.

It sounds like your other camera was either a canon or nikon both of which offered the modes options in programs like Adobe. Basically what Adobe did to "MIMIC" those modes was create special profiles for their raw software that "MIMICED" that mode in the camera for JPEG but for RAW.

The camera makers (Canon and Nikon) did the same thing with their own software. Since Panasonic doesn't make their own raw software you don't get that. A lot of camera companies don't offer that.

And while Adobe could Adobe only really puts effort in to things like this for Nikon and Canon, every one I guess they feel can do without.

Someone needs to sit down and make some Pansonic profiles for Adobe. They provide all of the software needed to do this, but I guess no one has.

Robert
--
Ketchup is just over loved tomatoes.

Oh sure. And -come to think of it- you also lose the ability to fool with the creative filters outside the camera too? Or does Pany apply the filters to RAW as well?

I received the xRite ColorChecker this week and made default profiles for the G1 & GF1 with Adobe DNG Profile Editor and it only confirms what others have said here: The GF1 & G1 handling of yellows and greens cause a greenish cast on RAW files. The Adobe Standard fixes this and works very well. Everything else you can fix in Photoshop or Lightroom.

Click link below for itemsis' G1 profile. Sound like alot of work was put into it and colors & contrast look very good. There's also an Olympus profile floating around by olycoly called Huelight I would like to work on. Please email to me if anyone has it. [email protected]. Thanks

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=33632956

DougRight said:

Oh sure. And -come to think of it- you also lose the ability to fool with the creative filters outside the camera too? Or does Pany apply the filters to RAW as well?

Click to expand...

I feel that shooting RAW should us the ability to have access to all the camera features outside the camera.

Anthony said:

This I did not know. In my pervious cameras, I could alter settings in Raw, then have the same settings available in the raw software.

So if "Vibrant" only applies to jpg,why isit available in the menu when using raw?

Click to expand...

I can't defend Panasonic on this one, but I think it's helpful since I can choose a setting that's similar to the "look" I go for when processing in RAW. This will give me a better indication of whether I'm on the mark in terms of my exposure, etc.

--
Sam Bennett - http://www.swiftbennett.com

Anthony said:

Don't get me wrong, the Panny color is nothing special, but to me, part of the fun is taking pictures , and experimenting with the various camera settings, after the shot.

Click to expand...

I think you are preaching to the wrong crowd. RAW is supplied as a format free of internal camera processing, and I don't think a lot of people care about reproducing a specific camera setting. At least I have never seen such a request before. The users of RAW usually will adjust the settings to their taste anyway, so why bother reproducing some specific set of presets? SilkyPix has a number of its own presets that you can use as a starting point, and anything beyond that is a waste of effort.

If you want to see how the same image will look with different camera setting you can always bracket the film modes. Of course there's a disadvantage for the moving objects, but I how often do you really NEED such a comparison?