X1/M8 and M9 questions.

Folks,

After carefully reading the reviews for the new M9 and X1 I have to say, that once again, Leica impresses me. These are, without a doubt, outstanding bodies; a few "defects" seems to indicate that we might see a M9.2 someday ("cheap" LCD, etc.) but those are really minor details in comparison of the improvements since M8.2 (IR filter, etc.)

Needless to say that these cameras are an investment, and that the M9 is really a "near perfect" camera; but, in truth, the X1 is not bad either, notably due to the presence of a Elmarit 24mm f/2.8. Granted, the X1 and M9 are clearly not competing on the same markets. They are very distinct cameras for (very) different photographers.

As I am writting this, a X1 is roughly $2k and a M9 about $7k. While they are not "officially" out yet, we've now seen several great reviews. Everything shows (well, mostly) that the X1 is an outstanding camera, some will refer to it as a "point and shoot" camera, I'm not quite sure this applies to rangefinders.

DPReview has shown some X1 pictures samples, at first, I wasn't really impressed, but some other reviews have shown much more impressive samples, which clearly shows that this new X1 can answer customers' demmand, sure it's not a M-series, but it's a Leica, if you're looking for a quality camera, that's one of them.

Now, I am wondering, mostly because of the new improvements of the M9 (IR filter anyone?) if many users will upgrade their M8-series to this new M9. I have no doubt a subsequent amount of users will, driving the used M8 market prices down. I am guessing we will see some M8 around $2k and M8.2 around $3k on the used market soon.

I'm sure by now you know where I'm going here, lenses costs aside, assuming a same price of $2k, is it better to "invest" in a X1 or used M8? Again, I am not accounting (purposely) for the support/warranty nor the cost of the lens(es).

Finally, I've noticed that M mount type lenses are (at best) rare on the used market, have I been looking at the wrong places or is it something we just don't find used?

Thanks,
J

The X1 seems to be a very good camera for shooting slow moving, or static objects. We must have been reading different reviews, but no way am I purchasing a camera with 2002 era auto-focus for upwards of $2.5K with grip and pre-rangefinder viewfinder...would that be 1920's.. not sure.

check out KEH in Atlanta
they have 89 M mount lenses listed as of this evening

used M mount prices have inflated a bit since the introduction of the M8/M9 and I suspect will be heading further upwards as the M9 appears a runaway success & the M8 is enjoying increased respect

you can also find used M lenses on Ebay or better yet at private dealers such as Tamarkin in NYC

there are many, many other Leica dealers all over the world & deals can be had if you know what you are doing on used lenses

Zeiss & Voigtländer make M mount lenses which can be wonderful & even Nikon & Canon have made M mount lenses, though these are not commonly found

I picked up a sweet tele-Elmar 135 that came as a lagniappe with a Viso/Bellows system I purchased at a camera show ...there are many dealers who specialize in the M mount
part of the fun is in the hunt
--
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
DPR forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke

A lens that I highly recommend is the 125mm (yes!). It was designed exclusively for the Visoflex and is definitely the sharpest lens I have ever owned, Leica or others.

It's a bit rare but not overly so. I sold it because it really was just too sharp. I couldn't find any use for it because I use that focal length for portraits and none of my sitters liked themselves to appear so sharp.

A bit OT I know, but I just remembered it and I wanted to get this info into the database before I forget about it again.

Oh, by the way, you can put an adapter on it and use it on a Leica R, a CaNikSonPentax, or whatever, digital or film.

If your dealer tells you there's only a 120mm, that could also be it, because it was labelled as a 120mm at that time to reduce US import duties.

Interesting,

So, based on the assumption that M lenses are not that rare, and assuming you know who to buy from, would a used M8 make more sense than a X1? I forgot to mention that I'm not interested into wildlife or "fast" photography, I'm more interested about landscapes, portraits and perhaps random places in general. Finally, in the case of buying a new X1, I've noticed that B&H (among others) offer an "extended" warranty, from 2 to 5 years, would you recommend it?

Thanks,
J

jibanes said:

Folks,

After carefully reading the reviews for the new M9 and X1 I have to say, that once again, Leica impresses me. These are, without a doubt, outstanding bodies; a few "defects" seems to indicate that we might see a M9.2 someday ("cheap" LCD, etc.) but those are really minor details in comparison of the improvements since M8.2 (IR filter, etc.)

Needless to say that these cameras are an investment, and that the M9 is really a "near perfect" camera; but, in truth, the X1 is not bad either, notably due to the presence of a Elmarit 24mm f/2.8. Granted, the X1 and M9 are clearly not competing on the same markets. They are very distinct cameras for (very) different photographers.

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No digital era camera can be regarded as an investment – the technology dates too quickly and the long-term reliability of its electronic heart is uncertain –a digital camera’s life is likely to be short by comparison with a mechanical film camera. Leica lenses on the other hand, are truly an investment. The reason you do not see many for sale is not because they are rare, it is because people hang on to them all their lives!

jibanes said:

As I am writting this, a X1 is roughly $2k and a M9 about $7k. While they are not "officially" out yet, we've now seen several great reviews. Everything shows (well, mostly) that the X1 is an outstanding camera, some will refer to it as a "point and shoot" camera, I'm not quite sure this applies to rangefinders.

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I am not so convinced that the X1 reviews are ‘great’. At best they are encouraging when it comes to image quality and the camera's look and feel, but there is a lot of critical comment too.

jibanes said:

DPReview has shown some X1 pictures samples, at first, I wasn't really impressed, but some other reviews have shown much more impressive samples, which clearly shows that this new X1 can answer customers' demmand, sure it's not a M-series, but it's a Leica, if you're looking for a quality camera, that's one of them.

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Recent reviews seem to confirm that the X1 is capable of producing technically excellent images, but the same reviews express concerns about the general functionality of the camera, particularly with regard to autofocus issues, shutter delays and the simple fact the camera has a relatively slow fixed lens, suited best to street-shooting and far from ideal for landscape, portraiture, close-up, action or nature photography etc.

jibanes said:

Now, I am wondering, mostly because of the new improvements of the M9 (IR filter anyone?) if many users will upgrade their M8-series to this new M9. I have no doubt a subsequent amount of users will, driving the used M8 market prices down. I am guessing we will see some M8 around $2k and M8.2 around $3k on the used market soon.

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I use an M8. I see no reason to upgrade to the M9 except with regard to the geometry of the lenses. My precious Leica lenses would be optimised on the M9 because it is a full frame camera. But, IQ with the M8 is stunning and one soon adapts to the crop factor when selecting lenses to put on it. The magenta issue is history - IR filters are a workaround solution, but a solution that works. If you own an M8, then you buy an IR filter every time you buy a lens.

jibanes said:

I'm sure by now you know where I'm going here, lenses costs aside, assuming a same price of $2k, is it better to "invest" in a X1 or used M8? Again, I am not accounting (purposely) for the support/warranty nor the cost of the lens(es).

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I would firmly recommend a used M8 – a wonderful camera and much more versatile than the pretty, but limited X1. What’s more, over time you’ll build up a collection of the peerless M lenses and they’ll be with you forever as you upgrade cameras into the foreseeable future.

jibanes said:

Finally, I've noticed that M mount type lenses are (at best) rare on the used market, have I been looking at the wrong places or is it something we just don't find used?

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Not rare, precious. Look on the Leica user forum’s Buy and Sell pages, or visit your local Leica shop. Mechanical objects are rarely good investments, but Leica lenses hold their prices and in some cases increase in value over time. The price differential between new and used is generally pretty small – that’s a strong indication of their desirability.

Steve'

jibanes said:

jibanes said:

would a used M8 make more sense than a X1

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I have to say I don't understand how that can a question unless the relative compactness of an X1 is a priority. The M8 is a remarkable and versatile camera and an X1, while probably good for what it is, is just not comparable.

--

• Vikas

speenth said:

Recent reviews seem to confirm that the X1 is capable of producing technically excellent images, but the same reviews express concerns about the general functionality of the camera, particularly with regard to autofocus issues, shutter delays and the simple fact the camera has a relatively slow fixed lens, suited best to street-shooting and far from ideal for landscape, portraiture, close-up, action or nature photography etc.

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speenth said:

Steve'

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It might be germane to remember too how badly both Luminous landscape and dpreview got burned with their very optimistic and premature reviews of the M8. I suspect this history is very much on their minds which would in my thinking tend to make any praise for this camera very conservative and more careful to underscore any faults they find however minor to cover their proverbial bottoms. Reed did however go out on a limb and say the x1 image quality was stellar better than any p and s small sensor and as good as many medium level dslrs. considering the above flack he received for the m8 review I think we can assume at least he really looked at the image quality every which way he could before commiting and made sure we all are aware of any shortcomings he finds however minute they may actually be in the real world. I will have to reserve judgment till i can try one out see if it works for me. but I think best bang for your buck the op that is is a used m8 and some older used lenses. My favorite two best bang for the buck leica 35mm lenses would be an older f2 summicron with the eyes which will work on the m8 but reduce the magnification of the finder but they are typically a few hundred dollars cheaper than the lenses without the eyes. The other lens is the 35mm f2.8 summaron
bosjohn aa John Shic= [email protected]

bosjohn said:

The other lens is the 35mm f2.8 summaron
bosjohn aa John Shic= [email protected]

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John,

Thank you for the very useful info, now let me ask 2 more questions related to your previous post:

• I have heard that Leica is coming up with a new 35mm f2.8 simmaron, is this true? I forgot which M9 review mentioned this, but it could have been something that Leica has announced to a handful on 09/09/09.
• How to chose a "good" M8, what are the things to watch out for, or to be careful about?

J

jibanes said:

bosjohn said:

The other lens is the 35mm f2.8 summaron
bosjohn aa John Shic= [email protected]

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John,

Thank you for the very useful info, now let me ask 2 more questions related to your previous post:

• I have heard that Leica is coming up with a new 35mm f2.8 simmaron, is this true? I forgot which M9 review mentioned this, but it could have been something that Leica has announced to a handful on 09/09/09.
• How to chose a "good" M8, what are the things to watch out for, or to be careful about?

J

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it will still be considerable more expensive than some of the sixties and seventies Leitz lenses. There are also the cosina and Zeiss lenses which will work I have the 21 zeiss, 28 zeiss and a cosina 50 they are all good lenses but I dont think they are any better than a second edition of the f2 35 summicron which will set you back about eight hundred to a thousand depending on how pretty it is and if it has the eyes for the m3 it will be in the six or sevent hundred range. Oddly enough you can take the eyes off but the lens will not bring up the right frame line so if you dont mind holding the preview lever you can use one without the eyes but thats more work than its worth to me. There are some quite good screw mount lenses out there as well. If you going to get one lens to start and you don't mind new I recommend the zeiss 28mm which will get you very close to the thirty five mm on the ff camera a very nice combination.
--
bosjohn aka John Shick [email protected]

jibanes said:

• I have heard that Leica is coming up with a new 35mm f2.8 simmaron, is this true? I forgot which M9 review mentioned this, but it could have been something that Leica has announced to a handful on 09/09/09.
• How to chose a "good" M8, what are the things to watch out for, or to be careful about?

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There are four classic Leica 35mm lenses:

Summarit-M 35mm f/2.5;
Summicron-M 35mm f/2 (IV);
Summicron-M 35mm f/2 ASPH and;
Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH.

By Leica tradition, the names reflect the speed (maximum aperture of the lens) - hence there being two Summicrons in this list.

The Summarit 35 is relatively new (released about two years ago, as I recall). The current four Summarit lenses (35, 50, 70 and 90) form the 'cheap' Leica lens range and consequently some Leica snobs turn up their noses at the whole range. At a maximum f/2.5 they're not the fastest lenses. However, the 35 and 70 have both been highly praised for their imaging performance. Thus, do not discount the affordable, small and light Summarit 35.

The Summilux-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH is stunning but very expensive (as are all Summilux lenses). But interestingly, experts often rate the overall IQ of the Summicron-M 35mm f/2 ASPH more highly.

In my view (as a biased owner), the much admired Summicron-M 35mm f/2 ASPH is the 35 to go for. It is simply a wonderful lens in all respects and on the M8 it has an equivalent focal length of around 45mm, thus making it an ideal 'standard' lens. It is very bright, sharp, draws wonderful images and it is also tiny - the M8 is almost pocketable with this versatile lens mounted!

If you have read rumours of a 2.8 lens it sounds as if it should be avoided anyway - it would be pretty slow relative to its peers described above!

Leitz, Voigtlander and others all make impressive 35's too.

What to look out for in a used M8? Well, if you read the forums you could persuade yourself that every M8 has failed. That's rubbish of course and such negative reporting is an unfortunate tendency of the Internet. M8s are beautifully made cameras of the highest standard. Most are perfectly reliable and there is very little you need worry about.

I would check that the LCD screen is firmly attached (they have a tendency to come unstuck). Better still, try to find an M8 that's been upgraded to incorporate the near unscratchable sapphire LCD screen.

I would look very carefully (with a magnifier) for damage to the sensor and I'd take some out-of-focus images of blue sky or a plain white surface to see if there are any significant blemishes on the sensor (other than dust).

I'd check the viewfinder alignment and the accuracy of focussing. Personally, I can't think of much else.

Remember you have two M8 models. The original had more problems than the M8.2, but the latter's shutter is only half as fast at the original M8's 1/8000 max.

they are very good
jibanes wrote:
snip

jibanes said:

• How to chose a "good" M8, what are the things to watch out for, or to be careful about?

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I am going a bit against the grain with my recommendation

the M8.2 does have some advantages, but its shutter, while quieter, has a slower top shutter speed, though I think I only used 1/8000 one time with mine

the shutter on the M8.2 is said to be more robustly built, though I have not seen many posts of shutter failure for either

the M8.2 probably gets a premium price over the M8 now, but I suspect in 10 years the M8 will be worth more than the M8.2
the first digital M will almost certainly have added value with collectors

the two cameras aren't all that different (particularly with the latest firmware) so I would make my purchase decision based on price & condition only rather than model

there was a period in which some M8's had a "sudden death" syndrome & the serial numbers of these cameras has been published on LUF somewhere

this was due to a problem with the electronics & was corrected in subsequent releases

by all means due a search for the serial numbers of the cameras affected on LUF's M8 forum, which is an outstanding resource that you should frequent as well
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/?langid=2

while I have not seen anyone having problems with the LCD, I think it prudent to carefully inspect every bit of the camera with special attention to the sensor and shutter

I would look carefully at the Leica emblem (red dot) under which resides the focus adjustment screw ...while this is not a big deal, you would want to know if the prior owner had problems with the rangefinder mechanism and tried to fix it themselves ...damage about the red dot may mean they struggled with RF adjustment

another area to look at carefully is the bottom plate attachment and in particular the camera body end opposite the lock ring

there is a little bar on the camera (not the plate) that articulates with the plate and with improper user technique can get stressed and even break rendering the camera useless

stress lines will appear in the metal along the edges of this bar before it breaks

a few such instances of this has been reported on LUF and it is a good idea to check this out before buying a used M
I don't want to discourage you from buying an M8

it is a wonderful camera that has a bit of a learning curve even if you are familiar with digital and RF photography
I hope this helps you with your search
good luck
--
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
DPR forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke

I followed your advices and I bought today (they had 2 used M8 at a local camera store) a used M8 with a 50mm f/2. I've only taken a few shots so far and I obviously have to do some learning before anything. We'll see how this goes.

J

jibanes said:

I followed your advices and I bought today (they had 2 used M8 at a local camera store) a used M8 with a 50mm f/2. I've only taken a few shots so far and I obviously have to do some learning before anything. We'll see how this goes.

J

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Congratulations on a good decision! I'm sure you'll love it once you get over that learning bit. The M8 is a subtle beast with great flexibility built into its classic imaging controls. It is rather different to use than it's dSLR rivals. You'll also need to master the processing of M8 RAWs - it's worth reading the many Leica User Forum threads on that complex subject!

The 50mm is close to an 80mm on the M8 - great for portraiture, possibly a little long for general purpose use, depending on your preferred subject matter. As it is an f/2 I'm assuming it's the Summicron - if so, it is a great lens, right in the middle of the range of focal lengths well suited to the M8.

Have fun and don't forget to post some pictures!

J,

Not sure where you are looking for lenses. Used M lenses is actually one of the very cool things about any digital rangefinder right now... there are soo many lenses which have been made for soooo many years, you can get glass easily.

IF your choice "really" is between a used M8 and a new X..... its really a no-brainer.. get the M... end of story. it is painfully great camera. I have a 9 and a 8.. both are great.

The X is a very specilized point-and-shoot camera, but if it fits your desire it is probably going to be a very good such. the files look great.

The 9 is not part of your question, so move on and focus on a used M8.... if you have a taste for digital rangefinders, the M8 is as good as it is going to get from leica for that amount of money.

--
Bo

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