Sigma mis-ID is Sony's fault, not Sigma's

Some say that Sigma reverse engineers their lenses and chips them with IDs to mimmic old Minolta lenses to avoid paying royalties to Sony. This is certainly not true in the case of the Sigma 17-70. I found that using third party software on the RAW metadata file, the proper lens used is revealed as a Sigma 17-70 f3.5-4.5 (see below). But IDC and Sony JPEGs I have looked at shows that Sony firmware and software changes RAW metadata to show the Sigma as a 24-105mm Minolta. We can only speculate why Sony does this, but the evidence shows that they do.

[PhotoME]
PhotoME version: 0.79R17 (Build 856)

[Overview]
DSC06477.ARW
File type: Sony Alpha Camera RAW
File size: 20,418.6 KB
Creation date: 7/19/2009 13:18
Last modification: 8/13/2009 20:49
Make: SONY
Camera: DSLR-A700
Lens: Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4.5 (D)
Software: Image Data Suite ver. 3
Dimension: 4288 x 2856 px (12.2 MP, 3:2)
Focal length: 17 mm (equiv. 25 mm; 95x digital)
Aperture: F9
Exposure time: 1/125"
ISO speed rating: 200/24°
Program: Aperture priority
Metering Mode: Center-weighted average
White Balance: Auto
Image Stabilizer: On
Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

It appears that Sony is the culpret here, not Sigma. How ironic is that?

-Phil

--It is Well known that Sony HATES Sigma. That is why they do what they do.

One reason why Sony calls a Sigma lens on a Sony DSLR as a Foreign Body. Break your Sony DSLR with a Sigma lens on it and Sony Warranty will NOT fix it. You will have to pay for it.
That's what happens in UK anyway.

MrScary (DennisR)
Swansea, Wales. UK

http://copernob.jalbum.net/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scarecrowdr
http://www.russ4to.photoshare.co.nz

IDC just doesn;t have the lens listed.. Nobody is currently copying roms. try a simga .. especially sigma lens from the 90's this was known even back then. i Don't see why your trying to re write history to make sony look bad. the exif is written by the camera!!
--
http://www.fotosource.com/downloads/flyer/eye_cancer_en_CA.pdf

MrScary said:

--It is Well known that Sony HATES Sigma. That is why they do what they do.

One reason why Sony calls a Sigma lens on a Sony DSLR as a Foreign Body. Break your Sony DSLR with a Sigma lens on it and Sony Warranty will NOT fix it. You will have to pay for it.
That's what happens in UK anyway.

MrScary (DennisR)
Swansea, Wales. UK

Click to expand...

Good to know. At least for the next time I travel to the UK anyway!
-Phil

if a camera is broke by a thrid pary accessory you really expect Sony to fix it for you? Tell me Scarey.. Which maker guarantess third party product compatability ? hmm? Guess Minolta hated them too since none of those bad roms worked on the 7 or 9 either did they ? how do you explain that? didn't you in fact get Sony to look at your camera once or twice when in the end it was your bad lenses? did they charge you for that? maybe they should ..

--
http://www.fotosource.com/downloads/flyer/eye_cancer_en_CA.pdf

Interesting.
For those who are really keen you can try rewriting the EXIF yourself:

http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/identifying-lenses-in-lightroom-with-alphalensinfo_topic43251_page1.html
However that's all command line crap which I have no patience to figure out.

--
-Davie T

Glenn said:

IDC just doesn;t have the lens listed.. Nobody is currently copying roms. try a simga .. especially sigma lens from the 90's this was known even back then. i Don't see why your trying to re write history to make sony look bad. the exif is written by the camera!!

Click to expand...

The camera only writes the EXIF file if it is shot as a JPEG, but the RAW file still contains the correct unadulterated metadata. IDC reports the Sigma 17-70 lens as a Minolta 24-105mm f3.5-4.5 while third party software reports it correctly as a Sigma 17-70. I guess you have your mind made up about Sigma and don't want to be confused by the facts.
-Phil

There is a difference between lens description field which is what you have shown and lensID, which is a what many raw apps use for determining lens type.

I.e DxO see my Sigma 17-50 DC has a Sigma 12-24 EX DG
So Sigma even use the same lensID between different model sigma lenses!!

stevecimo said:

There is a difference between lens description field which is what you have shown and lensID, which is a what many raw apps use for determining lens type.

I.e DxO see my Sigma 17-50 DC has a Sigma 12-24 EX DG
So Sigma even use the same lensID between different model sigma lenses!!

Click to expand...

So please explain to me how the PhotoMe software identifies the Sigma lens correctly.
Are you saying it just a lucky guess?
-Phil

MrScary said:

--It is Well known that Sony HATES Sigma.

Click to expand...

Do you have any official Sony statement saying they HATE Sigma?
--
In reviews we do not trust !

Phixel said:

stevecimo said:

There is a difference between lens description field which is what you have shown and lensID, which is a what many raw apps use for determining lens type.

I.e DxO see my Sigma 17-50 DC has a Sigma 12-24 EX DG
So Sigma even use the same lensID between different model sigma lenses!!

Click to expand...

So please explain to me how the PhotoMe software identifies the Sigma lens correctly.
Are you saying it just a lucky guess?
-Phil

Click to expand...

Nope, no such thing has luck. there will be a reason, could be has simple has PhotoMe use a different lense database that sony use?

I don't have a photo taken with the lens you mentioned, do you have one I can down load to look at? or email one to me?

Not just Sigma that has ambiguous Lens IDs.

PhotoME reports my Tamron 18-250 as:-

Tamron AF 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 XR Di II LD or Tamron AF 55-200mm F4-5.6 Di II or Tamron AF 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di LD MACRO 1:2

In case anyone is interested to see how well PhotoMe does identifying their lenses I am providing the link to the free download. Keep in mind the unadulterated RAW file must be used. The Sony camera's firmware will corrupt the information when the JPEG file is written, so it only works properly with RAW files.

http://www.photome.de/download_en.html
-Phil

Zamac said:

Not just Sigma that has ambiguous Lens IDs.

PhotoME reports my Tamron 18-250 as:-

Tamron AF 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 XR Di II LD or Tamron AF 55-200mm F4-5.6 Di II or Tamron AF 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di LD MACRO 1:2

Click to expand...

Ha! My Tamron 55-200 is identified with the same list of lenses by PhotoMe!
-Phil

well, I just installed PhotoME , nice tool Thanks Phixel for bring it to my attention.

So I started looking at some of my jpgs, it shows photos taken with my Sigma 17-50 DC has a lens ID of 30 and lens name of Minolta AF 28-80mm F3.5-5.6 (D)

Both RAW images and jpgs processed by DxO.

having looked a few open source exif apps, when lenses have the same ID,
the lens name is chosen by the order they appear in the database .

i.e the first matching LensID found get chosen.

maybe this is what's happen, can't say for sure, So maybe Sony have listed Sony/Minolta lenses first in their database?

your not paying attention to whats being said. your just trying to make what you think is a fact conform to what you want it to show. Old sigma tamron and tokina lens copied IDs from other lenses. sometimes the readers come up as a whole long list of possibilities in the ones that try at all. my tamron 90mm doesn't report the manufacturer ID at all it just comes up unknown. That last guy danced around the whole issue and it seemed he didn't want to admit that he didn't understand how micro adjust worked, got it all backwards and expected Sony to fix it for him. he never once posted that he tried to reset his Sony/Minolta Lenses, he just sent it to Sony twice with a dubious description of the problem. so you .. with a little bit of time on your hands are trying to turn it into something it isn't. this has always been a problem with third party lenses. and if your paying attention you would see thats it's not just Sony, Minolta and Nikon that have this same problem.

--
http://www.fotosource.com/downloads/flyer/eye_cancer_en_CA.pdf

stevecimo said:

well, I just installed PhotoME , nice tool Thanks Phixel for bring it to my attention.

So I started looking at some of my jpgs, it shows photos taken with my Sigma 17-50 DC has a lens ID of 30 and lens name of Minolta AF 28-80mm F3.5-5.6 (D)

Both RAW images and jpgs processed by DxO.

having looked a few open source exif apps, when lenses have the same ID,
the lens name is chosen by the order they appear in the database .

i.e the first matching LensID found get chosen.

maybe this is what's happen, can't say for sure, So maybe Sony have listed Sony/Minolta lenses first in their database?

Click to expand...

Try looking at the RAW file right out of the camera before processing with DxO. Once the image has been processed and converted to JPEG the metadata is altered.

-Phil

Glenn said:

your not paying attention to whats being said. your just trying to make what you think is a fact conform to what you want it to show. Old sigma tamron and tokina lens copied IDs from other lenses. sometimes the readers come up as a whole long list of possibilities in the ones that try at all. my tamron 90mm doesn't report the manufacturer ID at all it just comes up unknown. That last guy danced around the whole issue and it seemed he didn't want to admit that he didn't understand how micro adjust worked, got it all backwards and expected Sony to fix it for him. he never once posted that he tried to reset his Sony/Minolta Lenses, he just sent it to Sony twice with a dubious description of the problem. so you .. with a little bit of time on your hands are trying to turn it into something it isn't. this has always been a problem with third party lenses. and if your paying attention you would see thats it's not just Sony, Minolta and Nikon that have this same problem.

Click to expand...

I believe you are correct about the old lenses, but why don't you admit that it is a possibility Sigma has changed their ways?
-Phil

Heres the lens ID's I got from a forum somewhere I think it's pretty complete and haven't noticed any mistakes yet but there may be some.

/
0 "28-85mm F3.5-4.5"
1 "80-200mm F2.8"
2 "28-70mm F2.8"
3 "28-80mm F4-5.6"
?
5 "35-70mm F3.5-4.5"
6 "24-85mm F3.5-4.5"
7 "100-300mm F4.5-5.6"
8 "70-210mm F4.5-5.6"
9 "MACRO 50mm F3.5"
10 "28-105mm F3.5-4.5"
11 "300mm F4"
12 "SOFTFOCUS 100mm F2.8"
13 "75-300mm F4.5-5.6"
14 "100-400mm F4.5-6.7"
15 "400mm F4.5"
16 "17-35mm F3.5"
17 "20-35mm F3.5-4.5"
18 "28-80mm F3.5-5.6"
19 "35mm F1.4"
20 "135mm F2.8 [T4.5] STF"
?
22 "35-80mm F4-5.6"
23 "MACRO 200mm F4"
24 "24-105mm F3.5-4.5"
25 "100-300mm F4.5-5.6"
?
27 "85mm F1.4"
28 "100mm F2.8 Macro"
29 "75-300mm F4.5-5.6"
30 "28-80mm F3.5-5.6"
31 "50mm F2.8 Macro"
32 "300mm F2.8 G"
33 "70-200mm F2.8 G"
?
35 "85mm F1.4 L"
36 "28-100mm F3.5-5.6"
?
38 "17-35mm F2.8-4"
39 "28-75mm F2.8"
40 "DT 18-70mm F3.5-5.6"
41 "DT 11-18mm F4.5-5.6"
42 "DT 18-200mm F3.5-6.3"
43 "35mm F1.4 G"
44 "50mm F1.4"
45 "Planar T* 85mm F1.4 ZA"
46 "Vario-Sonnar T* DT 16-80mm F3.5-4.5 ZA"
47 "Sonnar T* 135mm F1.8 ZA"
?
2550 "50mm F1.7" (auch Service Manual 2550-100/2550-600)
2551 "35-70mm F4"
2552 "28-85mm F3.5-4.5"
2553 "28-135mm F4-4.5"
2554 "35-105mm F3.5-4.5" ("old" laut Service Manual 2554-100 und 2554-600)
2555 "70-210mm F4" (auch Service Manual 2555-100/2555-600)
2556 "135mm F2.8"
2557 "28mm F2.8"
2558 "24-50mm F4"
?
2560 "100-200mm F4.5"
2561 "75-300mm F4.5-5.6"
2562 "50mm F1.4"
2563 "300mm F2.8"
2564 "MACRO 50mm F2.8"
2565 "600mm F4"
2566 "24mm F2.8"
?
2572 "500mm F8 Reflex"
?
2578 "16mm F2.8 Fisheye"
2579 "20mm F2.8"
?
2581 "MACRO 100mm F2.8"
?

2585 "35-105mm F3.5-4.5" (neuere Version laut Service Manual 2585-100 und 2585-600)
?
2588 "70-210mm F3.5-4.5"
2589 "80-200mm F2.8"

2590 "----" (laut Sonys Datei) / "Tele Converter 1,4x" (laut Service Manual 2590-100 und 2590-600)
2591 "35mm F1.4"
2592 "85mm F1.4"
2593 "200mm F2.8"
2594 "MACRO 3X-1X F1.7-2.8"
?
2596 "28mm F2"
2597 "35mm F2"
2598 "100mm F2"
?

2601 "----" (laut Sonys Datei) / "Tele Converter 2x" (laut Service Manual 2601-100 und 2601-600)
?
2604 "80-200mm F4.5-5.6"
2605 "35-80mm F4-5.6"
2606 "100-300mm F4.5-5.6"
2607 "35-80mm F4-5.6"
2608 "300mm F2.8"
2609 "600mm F4"
?
2612 "200mm F2.8"
2613 "50mm F1.7"
?
2615 "28-105mm F3.5-4.5"
2616 "35-200mm F4.5-5.6"
?
2618 "28-80mm F4-5.6"
2619 "80-200mm F4.5-5.6"
2620 "28-70/2.8G" (Nicht in Sonys XML-Datei, dafür aber in A100 Firmware 1.02)
2621 "100-300mm F4.5-5.6"
?
2624 "35-80mm F4-5.6"
?
2628 "80-200/2.8G" (Nicht in Sonys XML-Datei, dafür aber in A100 Firmware 1.02)
2629 "85mm F1.4"
?

2631 "100-300/4.5-5.6APO" (Nicht in Sonys XML-Datei, dafür aber in A100 Firmware 1.02)
2632 "24-50mm F4"
?
2638 "MACRO 50mm F2.8"
2639 "MACRO 100mm F2.8"
?
2641 "20mm F2.8"
2642 "24mm F2.8"
?

2644 "100-400/4.5-6.7APO" (Nicht in Sonys XML-Datei, dafür aber in A100 Firmware 1.02)
?
2662 "50mm F1.4"
?
2667 "35mm F2"
2668 "28mm F2"

/
--
http://www.fotosource.com/downloads/flyer/eye_cancer_en_CA.pdf

Phixel said:

Some say that Sigma reverse engineers their lenses and chips them with IDs to mimmic old Minolta lenses to avoid paying royalties to Sony. This is certainly not true in the case of the Sigma 17-70. I found that using third party software on the RAW metadata file, the proper lens used is revealed as a Sigma 17-70 f3.5-4.5 (see below). But IDC and Sony JPEGs I have looked at shows that Sony firmware and software changes RAW metadata to show the Sigma as a 24-105mm Minolta. We can only speculate why Sony does this, but the evidence shows that they do.

Lens: Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4.5 (D)

It appears that Sony is the culpret here, not Sigma. How ironic is that?

-Phil

Click to expand...

What matters for many processing purposes (and things like AF fine-tuning on A900) is the numerical lens ID - the text description is just a label. Numerical ID overlapping with that of the Minolta lens in question is causing the overwrite, I would expect.

-- AK