orlandoom
Senior Member
Should such a problem a camera have a "Highly Recommended" rating.
Orlando.
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Re: Minolta DiMAGE 7Hi First Look - noise issue
- Thread starter Bernie Ess
- Start date
Orlando.
Peter Marina
Leading Member
Have they changed anything about the EVF compared to the D7i?
Peter Marina
Peter Marina
Peter Marina
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Peter Marina
Jim K53618
Senior Member
Yes I would mind and I would think you could understand why. No professional sales team, or commercial retail store would ever publically discredit a manufacturer. I have close relationships with a few camera stores in the Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse area's. What is said behind the scenes is in confidence and I would not betray that confidence. It's sufficient to say that if you subtract all the electronics and, department stores, and computer stores that sell digital camera's and only look at camera stores in the area's I mentioned you would find that only 2 camera stores in Buffalo carry any Minolta digitals, only 1 camera store in Rochester, and 2 in Syracuse. That is far as I will go in identifying them. I really don't care if you believe me or not. If you were able to ask them, they would give a perfectly innocent anwser that would not be offensive. If you asked if they could order one for you, they would decline and tell you they do not have a distributor that carries them, or some other bogus reason. Perhaps 1 or 2 may special order one if pressed. I know of at least two stores from those area's that have admitted they are simply reluctant to order any thing digital from Minolta because of the unusually high return rate on their products. One store sold 12 D7's and got them all returned! I suspect there must be other camera stores nationally with similar stories. I can't believe my area is unique. The hot sellers have always been Canon, Sony, Olympus, and Nikon. Kodak is attempting a come back. Fuji does respectably. Minolta has always done poorly in digitals, as long as I can remember.
Regards!
--
Every Camera Has Short Comings,
some camera's fall short of coming!
http://digitalphotonews.ws
rui manuel silva
Member
...One store sold 12
because i think it's a problem of what to see in photos. i guess some of you are really really more into technical stuff that photography itself. it's hard to believe that one thing that has such a nice name like grain in film, could be called noise in digital. i don't see any noise in my pictures, really. perhaps i don't look at them like you do or Phil does, but I understand Phil: he is doing a technical approach, but iI really can't understand yours. for me noise means something that is disturbing the picture, the way we look at it, the way you see what's captured.
I mean, you have an outstanding 5 mp photo. you would love to have an A1 of that photo in your living room, right above the couch. but than you think: "no, i can't do that... it's a 5mp image, so if I stretch it to A1 it will get a lot of noise... oh well, nevermind, someday i'll get a 22mp camera (not from minolta of course) and than i'll do this picture again"?
Rui
hey Jim, if I saw this message of yours 2 months ago perhaps I wouldn't buy minolta dimage 7i. well.. thank god i haven't seen.
because i think it's a problem of what to see in photos. i guess some of you are really really more into technical stuff that photography itself. it's hard to believe that one thing that has such a nice name like grain in film, could be called noise in digital. i don't see any noise in my pictures, really. perhaps i don't look at them like you do or Phil does, but I understand Phil: he is doing a technical approach, but iI really can't understand yours. for me noise means something that is disturbing the picture, the way we look at it, the way you see what's captured.
I mean, you have an outstanding 5 mp photo. you would love to have an A1 of that photo in your living room, right above the couch. but than you think: "no, i can't do that... it's a 5mp image, so if I stretch it to A1 it will get a lot of noise... oh well, nevermind, someday i'll get a 22mp camera (not from minolta of course) and than i'll do this picture again"?
Rui
Dietmar Fichter
Senior Member
The noise that Phil is talking about can be clearly seen in his original review of the 7i. The noise level is depicted in Photographic test #14 and #15 of the review.
His first impression about the high noise level at ISO 100 of the 7Hi is that it does not appear to be any better than the noise level at ISO 100 as of the 7i.
Since Phil is a respected analyst in reviewing digital cameras his view point about a product is well repected by many and bears a great influence on persons looking to purchase their first digital camera. His observation about the higher noise level compared to other 5 megapixel cameras currently available has influenced me and certainly others not to purchase this product when other manufacturers of digital cameras are not plagued by the noise weakness.
Dietmar
His first impression about the high noise level at ISO 100 of the 7Hi is that it does not appear to be any better than the noise level at ISO 100 as of the 7i.
Since Phil is a respected analyst in reviewing digital cameras his view point about a product is well repected by many and bears a great influence on persons looking to purchase their first digital camera. His observation about the higher noise level compared to other 5 megapixel cameras currently available has influenced me and certainly others not to purchase this product when other manufacturers of digital cameras are not plagued by the noise weakness.
Dietmar
Mike Roberts
Senior Member
Noise has only been an issue in a small percentage of my pictures. In those few cases NeatImage easily rectifes the problem. Noise is always more apparent on the monitor at full resolution than the prints. Displaying an image so it fits on the screen is usually enough interpolation to remove the noise.
The D7s are designed with the philosophy of maximal user control. To this end the fact that less noise processing means less smeared portions of the image (that is essentially exactly what noise processing does) is a boon because it leaves those choices up to me.
What would be nice is if they would do for noise much as they did with the color space selections when they added what I call 'Sony' color. If they gave us some input control over the noise reduction so we can have Minolta Original Style and 'Sony' style noise reduction.
Mike Roberts
The D7s are designed with the philosophy of maximal user control. To this end the fact that less noise processing means less smeared portions of the image (that is essentially exactly what noise processing does) is a boon because it leaves those choices up to me.
What would be nice is if they would do for noise much as they did with the color space selections when they added what I call 'Sony' color. If they gave us some input control over the noise reduction so we can have Minolta Original Style and 'Sony' style noise reduction.
Mike Roberts
David Cooper
Well-known member
rui manuel silva
Member
Dietmar,
I understand that. I respect what Phil says technically because that's his job and he does it well. But what concerns me is that the noise issue got so much importance for people that i really can't understand if they really are looking at pictures to see the image captured or if they are looking at dots to see what are the failures of the camera. It's Phil job to review technically, it's not our 'job' as photographers to measure that.
I saw Phil's review before purchasing D7i. I was worried about the 'noise' issue. But comparing other features of the minolta with the competition I decided to take the risk of buying it. I started to use it, made photos I like a lot, printed them in 15cm x 20cm, show them to relatives and friends and I haven't got any observation like "hey, it's nice but it would be nicer if it had less noise". people just look at it and like it or not. I'm not going to a photography exhibition and complain to the photographer for using 3200 iso films black and white that the picture is not perfect.
Why it concerns me? I guess it's the same thing as Phil saying from all competitors of the D7i that it's unforgivable that having minolta a 28-200 lens... sony, nikon or canon hadn't come up with a lens of the same focal range. As you say, many people simply backed away from D7i because of Phil's complains about noise. Would Nikon or Canon (etc..) owners be happy if Phil started to enphasize this issue?
"i'm not saying it's not noisier. i'm saying it doesn't matter to me"
rui
Bernie Ess
Veteran Member
Yeah right, sometimes it might be just nice to have an out- of- the camera clean image, they should at least implement it - same for SOny, they could easily leave the choice to the photographer: cleaned or not cleaned...
Do I understand that you use both: which one do you use more often?
Bernhard
DarrenH
Senior Member
Why don't we just run a subtle Median filter on it while we're at it? Maybe a touch of Unsharp to sweeten it a bit as well....
I trust you see what I'm getting at. Cameras must be reviewed on a level playing field, and if Minolta sees fit to release a camera that produces noisy images as a standard, then it must be reviewed as such.
As for myself, I'm not falling for the black casing. It's the same old camera in a new package. Minolta seems to underestimate the intelligence of the digital camera-buying community.
Respect,
D
I trust you see what I'm getting at. Cameras must be reviewed on a level playing field, and if Minolta sees fit to release a camera that produces noisy images as a standard, then it must be reviewed as such.
As for myself, I'm not falling for the black casing. It's the same old camera in a new package. Minolta seems to underestimate the intelligence of the digital camera-buying community.
Respect,
D
orlandoom
Senior Member
Yes and he did that by giving the 7i a "Highly Recommended".
To me this shows that either the noise issue is minor or his system for rating the camera is flawed.
The same thing is true of the 717- oversaturated reds.
He made a point iin yesterdays samples to once again bring these issues to the forefront about each camera at at the same time their previous version get his highest rating. I just don't get it, either they have a major flaw or they don't and if they do how can he rate them as he does.
He without a doubt influenced me not to consider the 7i/7hi as of now I guess I will just keep saving for a dslr without major issues.
orlando>
A
Alfred
Guest
hola, qué tal? ...
I guess there is one difference between the noise and the fact that e.g. canon does not have the (admittedly great lens-zoom range) of the d7:
Let me use an analogy: If you buy a SUV you KNOW that it is not a sports car (sharp turns) ... so you would not go and complain that it doesnt track like a porsche (this would be the focal lenght) ... but you would complain and demand repairs if it would pop out of 3rd gear...
point being... one is a design-spec you know BEFOREHAND (28-200mm, or 38-190mm) and the other is a manufacturers flaw (rather noiseless, or with noise) ...
the focal lenght is advertised on the box of any camera, the noise isnt...
best regards y saludos, Alfred
--
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http://www.pbase.com/abudschitz
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rui manuel silva
Member
olá Alfred
bien, gracias!
that's a good point but the problem for me is: what is considered a flaw? here's another way of putting it:
you want a sports car but technical reviews say they are a lot noisier. you can hear the motor inside, with the windows closed. yet you can buy a SUV with no noise, you can almost sleep while driving (wouldn't recommend that) because you can't hear the engine roaring inside it. i don't think you're going to blame porsche for not advertising they have a loud car when you're at the wheel... I think you'll look at one and the other and think to yourself: "what do I want?"
i think that is the main point: reading the reviews from minolta, canon, nikon and sony, you ask yourself: "what do i want?". because it sounds like I am a victim of minolta for buying a camera that does a thing that it doesn't bothers me at all. it was a ponderate decision on the pros and cons and being happy as i am with the 'toy' i bought, i feel bad when anyone comes in here to ask for advice and if someones mentions minolta the "monster noise" appears from the dark. because it freaks everybody, like it did to me at the beguining.
i just think it's nice for people to judge themselves: download some samples of some cameras they can find here, look at them, print them, retouch them if they plan to use post processing a lot and then decide. and if noise is really that important for someone, they will look for other options.
cumprimentos Alfred
rui
Mike Roberts
Senior Member
I get out-of-the-camera shots all the time with the D7, i.e. the noise is not an issue at all most of the time.
I do not use a Sony.
Mike Roberts
rui manuel silva
Member
i don't know if you have seen a Lomo camera. you can go to http://www.lomo.com . it's a big scene nowadays... well I have one: it takes pictures darker in the corners, like making some kind of vigneting.
guess what? i like it they even call it lomography instead of photography. i think minolta can make a hype of this also and call it noisigraphy, hehehehe
guess what? i like it
they even call it lomography instead of photography. i think minolta can make a hype of this also and call it noisigraphy, heheheheDietmar Fichter
Senior Member
The technical performance of a product is the influencing factor in my decision making process not the perverbial phrase " Highly Recommended" this is due to my background.
Yes the Sony 717 does have it's flaws - oversaturadetd reds plus among others as does the 5700 AF with low light, so like you, I will keep on saving for that illusive dslr unless something major is revealed at Photokina that would change my mind or firmware fixes.
Dietmar
Tony Reynolds
Senior Member
Unlike others here who merely SPECULATE about the D7i and it's newer cousin and noise vis a vis other systems, I USE A D7i on a daily basis.
The "noise" has NOT been a problem for me. As a few have stated, I would rather PERSONALLY have control over the image than have the system over-correct, as is the case in the Fuji.
I believe that the "noise" issue is a minor issue, that is far out-weighed by other D7i system merits.
I printed out two of Phils test shots with the D7Hi (the Tower Bridge and the Marina). I can see NO OBJECTIONABLE noise. What I see in the deep blue sky reminds me of film grain.
Am I "bitter" (as Phil noted) as a D7i owner that the "improvements" of the 7Hi were not incorporated in the camera I purchased in May?
NO!
I'm THRILLED that Minolta seems to actually LISTEN to critics and users and 90% of the time gets it right. At least they seem to be more responsive than Nikon and Sony.
Go ahead, flame me if you want, but I'm a contented D7i USER, not a fence-sitter...
Tony Reynolds
Seattle
The "noise" has NOT been a problem for me. As a few have stated, I would rather PERSONALLY have control over the image than have the system over-correct, as is the case in the Fuji.
I believe that the "noise" issue is a minor issue, that is far out-weighed by other D7i system merits.
I printed out two of Phils test shots with the D7Hi (the Tower Bridge and the Marina). I can see NO OBJECTIONABLE noise. What I see in the deep blue sky reminds me of film grain.
Am I "bitter" (as Phil noted) as a D7i owner that the "improvements" of the 7Hi were not incorporated in the camera I purchased in May?
NO!
I'm THRILLED that Minolta seems to actually LISTEN to critics and users and 90% of the time gets it right. At least they seem to be more responsive than Nikon and Sony.
Go ahead, flame me if you want, but I'm a contented D7i USER, not a fence-sitter...
Tony Reynolds
Seattle
A
Alfred
Guest
i see your point and it is a valid one ... my point goes more in the direction of " one could be surprised by the noise, but not by the focal length" if you buy a camera... but lets stand the 2 points as they do...
on the lomo... i know that its a russian made film camera that - although far from bein perfect - has some "cult" like following... (i heard people refer to them as the AK-47 kalashnikov of the cameras :0)
they got somewhat popular en the 90ies, when many people (often militars) from russia came to western countries (germany, austria) to sell "army" stuff, like night-goggles, medails and russian army watches...
hey, i even got myself a "board watch" out of a Mig fighter plane (mecanical, with a 3 day reserve) ... but i am drifting off again ...;o)
ciao, Alfred
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http://www.pbase.com/abudschitz
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on the lomo... i know that its a russian made film camera that - although far from bein perfect - has some "cult" like following... (i heard people refer to them as the AK-47 kalashnikov of the cameras :0)
they got somewhat popular en the 90ies, when many people (often militars) from russia came to western countries (germany, austria) to sell "army" stuff, like night-goggles, medails and russian army watches...
hey, i even got myself a "board watch" out of a Mig fighter plane (mecanical, with a 3 day reserve) ... but i am drifting off again ...;o)
ciao, Alfred
--i don't know if you have seen a Lomo camera. you can go to
http://www.lomo.com . it's a big scene nowadays... well I have one: it
takes pictures darker in the corners, like making some kind of
vigneting.
guess what? i like it
photography. i think minolta can make a hype of this also and call
it noisigraphy, hehehehe
=================
http://www.pbase.com/abudschitz
=================
rgojr
Senior Member
So Jim, I have a question for you then: You obviously don't want to buy a 7i or a 7HI, nor do you like minolta products. Phil has posted his findings in his review which you continually quote along with some of your own personal findings. If you have no interest in the camera why do you continually post negative comments about the camera? Are you obsessed with letting people know your opinoin on the minlota line of cameras? do you dislike minolta that much? I don't understand your angle..... Phil has already informed everyone of his opinions on the camera, why do you feel the need to hammer on it? do you post in other forums about equipment that you don't own?
curiously yours,
R
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so
curiously yours,
R
--
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so
A
Alfred
Guest
I dont know if you have photoshop but here is a good action that helps reduce rgb-noise:
http://www.shutterfreaks.com/Actions/RGBNoisePS.html
alfred
=================
http://www.pbase.com/abudschitz
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http://www.shutterfreaks.com/Actions/RGBNoisePS.html
alfred
--on the lomo... i know that its a russian made film camera that -
although far from bein perfect - has some "cult" like following...
(i heard people refer to them as the AK-47 kalashnikov of the
cameras :0)
they got somewhat popular en the 90ies, when many people (often
militars) from russia came to western countries (germany, austria)
to sell "army" stuff, like night-goggles, medails and russian army
watches...
hey, i even got myself a "board watch" out of a Mig fighter plane
(mecanical, with a 3 day reserve) ... but i am drifting off again
...;o)
ciao, Alfred
--i don't know if you have seen a Lomo camera. you can go to
http://www.lomo.com . it's a big scene nowadays... well I have one: it
takes pictures darker in the corners, like making some kind of
vigneting.
guess what? i like it
photography. i think minolta can make a hype of this also and call
it noisigraphy, hehehehe
=================
http://www.pbase.com/abudschitz
=================
=================
http://www.pbase.com/abudschitz
=================
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