What can you do in editing RAW that you can't do in editing JPEGs.

RAW white balance is actually RAW, not "pushing colors to other colors".
To elaborate on your explanation. RAW contains the information as it comes out of the sensor, without any correction for the color of the light in the scene.

Images contains so-called EXIF data in addition to the image itself. The EXIF data keep track of various settings which are used at the time the pic is taken, such as aperture, shutter speed, ISO settings, date, etc. Even if you shoot RAW the camera was set at some white bakance setting when you took the pic and that setting is saved in the EXIF info as well. It is just a tag, an extra piece of data added to the image information but which does not affect the image itself. RAW converters may use this tag as a default setting the 1st time you open the RAW image.
What I mean is if you color correct a really off JPEG you can only push the color so far. There might be a color cast still. You cannot just push channels to wherever you want and expect the change to be transparent.
JPEGs limit the color spaces you can use to sRGB and AdobeRGB (find me a camera that offers anything else, I don't think you will).
The D2Hs (but not the D2H), and there are a few other rare examples.
Rare examples. I'm not talking camera specific, in general. And going back to the bit depth thing, it wouldn't be the best idea.
RAW data can take any input/output color spaces.
RAW data as the reflection of the data captured by the sensor has no color space. But the EXIF data may contain a tag, just like for white balance, indicating which setting your camera used for color space when the image was taken.
JPEGs are 8 bit. That means 256 levels of red/green/blue (2^8) capable of about 16 million colors (256^3). That is a lot but with RAW you will be (at minimum) 12 bit, with 14 and 16 bit as well.
16-bit RAW is not offered in any Nikon dSLR, but the conversion to Jpeg may be perfored to a 16-bit Jpeg image.
RAW in general again. Reading DxO mark, even medium format doesn't do 16 bits yet (15) but I know it's coming. That's why I gave a range. It is still a realistic posibility. Plus I like the idea of having 16 bits in a 16 bit image, not 12/14 bits in a 16 bit image, match the container to the amount available.
So you will have 4096-65536 levels instead. I'm not even gonna go into the amount of colors since it is in the billions. It's important though because you might need these higher bits to work with when doing editing. So if doing a lot of editing and you want the smoothest transitions, you need more.
I challenge you to show me an 8-bit Jpeg image which after editing show a perceptible difference with the same JPEG image created and edited in 16-bit mode (I mean visually, not looking at pixel values). Very hard to do.
In most applications though, you would not see a difference or stretch to that limit though. But the extra bits are needed if you want to work in larger color spaces because I believe color can become posterized too.
Indeed, but what is the point of using a color space which is way wider than anything you can display or print?
The future. And it's just an option too. Having options is never a bad thing.
I like it better before. It looks ominous.
However open a JPEG image, change it, save it in a lossless format (TIFF, PSD, etc), close the original file and open the new one, apply corrections which will undo what you've done in the first place. You're back to the initial image minus some very minor rounding errors without visual impact (that is unless you make some drastic and unrealistic changes to the picture, or if your manipulation has brought a channel to its maximum value of 255, etc).
I think the point is that even if it's super close it's still has some errors even though it doesn't have the visual impact. Also reminds me of why I suggested the virtual copy suggestion with RAW. If you are making variants of an image, instead of wasting extra space, you can have them just as additional settings with RAW. Not for super detail work but if most of the image is nailed.
 
My D300 can not shoot jpeg. It can only shoot RAW.

My camera can however compress and save my shot into a jpg file.

I almost always use a raw and jpg saving option. For in by far most situations my jpeg's will do fine and this is a fast "workflow". On the other hand I always like to have the possibility that when I shoot a real gem of a picture to be able to harvest it from the uncompressed RAW file.

I wish people would stop using theories and science to point out other people are stupid or incapable. People are actualy feeling superior because of a camera setting ??
 
it is practical
Not always. Here is one example. You shoot your kids playing, say, soccer. Half the field is in shadow and half is under sun light. Are you gong to constantly switch between settings? And what about the zone at the edge of the shadow, which is not quite the same light-wise and the area deeper in the shadows? How are you going to follow the action and keep the right WB setting right all the time? Are you going to change the exposure manually as well?
i told you i have already setup my dslrs. and during my august trip out west i shot exactly the scenes you are describing, they came out fine absolutely no problem. i suggest you setup your dslr and stop making problems when you can solve them simply using some effort and time and SETUP YOUR DSLR ;PROPERLY.
Another example: there is not necessarily any action but it is windy and somewhat cloudy: clouds come and go and WB/exposure changes all the time.
see above. i shot these during the trip and at homre, nad have very fine pics.
What if you're in a shaded area, but the moutain you're photographing one mile away is in sun light? Are you going to walk a mile, take WB measurement, and come back to the initial shooting arrangement ?
see above. i have shot these constantly over the last few yrs, never had a problem.
It is practical in most situations, but not all of them.

--
Thierry
below is a shot from glacier np taken in august. the left and top are in sun while the right is in shade, came out fine, so did the 8x10.



ytou will find that the pics go better when a user stops making problems when there isn't any. AND JUST TAKE THE PIC.
 
Interesting analogy - as an avid golfer, I know that if you don't have at least a basic level of skill, it doesn't matter whether you carry 2 clubs or 14 - you aren't going to score well. And I also know that Tiger could beat me by 25 shots with only 2 clubs to my 14.

I think we're talking about something similar here. Once you've acquired a certain level of skill, shooting RAW can help you go further. But a skilled shooter/ post-processor will do better in JPEG than a beginner in RAW. The nice thing about RAW that doesn't apply in golf, though, is that if you shoot RAW from the beginning and save the files, you can go back to those shots in the future, after you've acquired more post-processing skills, or perhaps after the RAW processing techology has improved, and improve them even more.

Ray
 
It is a lot like buying a loaf of already toasted bread versus buying a loaf of non-toasted bread. With RAW, you can toast your bread any way you want it. You can make it dark, light, as is, with butter, cream cheese or both, make french toast out of it or use it for stuffing (add your own variations)

Starting with JPEG is like starting with already toasted bread.

With a D300, I set the camera to save both the toasted (JEPG) + non-toasted (RAW) files and only need to use the RAW files when I want to make my own gourmet meal (or when I've burned the toast in camera :-)

Regards,
Mike
 
You have more latitude to make more adjustments.

You get less artifacts. Think about jpg is using lossy compression (though you may not see it when you look at the image) so is not representing the image fully. When you go to edit, the compression artifacts come out. In the raw, there are no compression artifacts to have to deal with. Plus as said before, there is more information if you are trying to recover data that is blown out or hidden in the shadows. In jpeg, that information does not exist.
This is an offshoot of another thread I started, that has kind of turned into a RAW vs. JPEG question.

I have pretty much been convinced that if I have the time and space and am willing to do the work, the best way to handle pictures is to save them in RAW and use post processing software to create the JPEGs, which is what my wife wants as an end product.

She is asking me "exactly" what the benefits of saving the RAW picture is compared to just saving and using the JPEG out of the D300 -- and I will have to confess, I could not tell her exactly why we should be doing this, other than being able to reproduce a higher resolution picture that could be used to make a poster or for cropping.

I know there are other reasons. So could you help me out here. EXACTLY what editing can I do with a RAW picture that I can not do with a good resolution JPEG (i.e. adjust white balance, contrast, sharpen, brightness, etc.). Can I do (edit) all of this stuff with JPEGs or are some of these actionsor others only possible with the RAW picture.

Thanks.
--
Ron in Round Rock
 
  • accumulation of data losses during each JPEG compression.
I should have written TIFF, by bad.
However open a JPEG image, change it, save it in a lossless format (TIFF, PSD, etc), close the original file and open the new one, apply corrections which will undo what you've done in the first place. You're back to the initial image minus some very minor rounding errors without visual impact (that is unless you make some drastic and unrealistic changes to the picture, or if your manipulation has brought a channel to its maximum value of 255, etc).
Sorry, but I disagree, and based upon a lot of processing experience. The usual thing that starts happening very quickly is that you see banding in broad tonal ramps. Many years ago (I think 8 now) I did such a demonstration. I suppose I'll have to take a look around and see if I can find those files again.

But let me state things a slightly different way: when you're working with 8-bit data you're working with data that is near our ability to distinguish. A two or three point change in a value is visible for someone who is trained in imaging. Rounding is basically a one point change. You'll note that in my original, I said change, save, change, save. Then change back. I'll bet you that there are visible data changes when you do that, no matter how careful (and lucky) you are.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
But you stay that is because I don't do enough processing. How about Dan Margulis? Does he do enough processing for you?
I have great respect for Dan. He continually finds methods of manipulation that are unique and useful. However, just going in and out of Lab Color mode can have pixel rounding issues. I've documented cases where just the conversion alone caused a 2 digit shift.
"I've shown page after page of enormous corrections done both ways. And I've invited readers to pick out which one was which. Nobody can."
Several problems with using this statement as your support for 8-bit over 16-bit. First, there's the obvious one: this is like a magician asking you to pick a card. Unfortunately, the deck is loaded. When you make an "enormous change" and have no reference to what the change should be , no one is going to pick out which is which. Even if you see differences between the two, you don't have a reference for which is right. Second, Dan makes most of those enormous changes in the color channels. Our eyes are very sensitive to small changes in luminous data, not so much with color. You can get color slightly wrong and our brain adjusts.
" Supporters of working in 16-bit made extravagant claims about massive increases in image quality,"
No, that's not what I and others are asserting. There's a difference between the words "image quality" and "data integrity." It's an important difference for some of us. When I hand off a finished image to a client, image manipulation is not done. Thus, if I hand them an image with posterization of data in it and they start trying to back out something I cooked in, guess what happens? They start getting visible problems. That's why a lot of clients ask for the original raw images. The only problem with that is that the raw data is just that: the best possible data I could capture for an image I want to produce. It doesn't reflect what I saw and want others to see.
" As it turns out, the quality difference is nonexistent."
And here Dan makes another error. He mixes up "can't see it" with "non-existent." Again, there's a big difference between those two.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
The usual thing that starts happening very quickly is that you see banding in broad tonal ramps.
It's easy to show how posterization banding can, and necessarily does,
happen. Take a series of increasing values to represent the gradient
in a tonal ramp:
  • 1 2 3 4 5 6
To keep this simple, I'll use a 3:1 compression on 6 values
not a 4:1 compression on 8 values, and I'll average them linearly
not using an area simple as JPEG does. This avoids round-off
error or resorting to non-integer arithmetic, and is easier to see.

Each set of 3 values averages to the middle value in each triple:
  • 2 5
and so when 1:3 uncompressed, back into:
  • 2 2 2 8 8 8
Now apply a simple transformation that doubles each value,
perhaps a +1 EV digital boost. The original series becomes:
  • 2 4 6 8 10 12
But doubling the compressed series becomes:
  • 4 10
which uncompresses out to (anti-aliasing would help here):
  • 4 4 4 10 10 10
The transformed original series is clearly smoother than the transformed
compressed series is. But is it much smoother? Can one discern a jump of
6? Maybe, maybe not. Remember the sudden jump by 6 in previously
smooth data is an artifact of 3:1 compression. In real image data with
4:1, 8:1, or 16:1 compression, it's even worse. And this is just a
single transformation; problems accumulate with further manipulation.

This is why posterization necessarily arises from JPEG compression, and
also shows why 16-bit data is less prone to posterization than 8-bit data.

The place consumers most frequently encounter this problem is larger prints
that include blue skies, where it's exacerbated by red-channel noise. But
as you point out, any area with a smooth tonal gradient is vulnerable to
the problem outlined above. Shots straight from the camera will show this
problem provided the compression is high enough and the print large enough;
and if they've edited the image, it's even worse.

Similar demonstrations can be devised to show how round-off error creeps
into your image due to integer arithmetic, and why you're less likely to
notice it in 16 bits than you are in 8. Even keeping 14-bit data safe
using 16-bit registers only is tricky. Working in floating-point is safer,
but also slower.

--tom
 
Interesting analogy - as an avid golfer, I know that if you don't have at least a basic level of skill, it doesn't matter whether you carry 2 clubs or 14 - you aren't going to score well. And I also know that Tiger could beat me by 25 shots with only 2 clubs to my 14.

I think we're talking about something similar here. Once you've acquired a certain level of skill, shooting RAW can help you go further. But a skilled shooter/ post-processor will do better in JPEG than a beginner in RAW. The nice thing about RAW that doesn't apply in golf, though, is that if you shoot RAW from the beginning and save the files, you can go back to those shots in the future, after you've acquired more post-processing skills, or perhaps after the RAW processing techology has improved, and improve them even more.

Ray
--Well, we can compare our skills to Tigers, but the issue is does shooting raw help one produce better images... yes.

If Tiger took 2 cluds to Augusta one day, and 14 the next, would his score improve., you bet.

A beginner can shoot raw, and do conversions to jpegs with out using the extra clubs if he/ she wants to limit themselves to less tools, it is just a personal choice.

Personally, I like 14 clubs.

Nature Images Online Magazine
http://photographersonlinemagazine.blogspot.com/
http://raymondbarlow.blogspot.com/
http://www.raymondbarlow.com
 
" As it turns out, the quality difference is nonexistent."
And here Dan makes another error. He mixes up "can't see it" with "non-existent." Again, there's a big difference between those two.
Yes, there is a big difference. But is it a difference that matters? If so, to whom does it matter and how?
Let's imagine for a moment that your surgeon can't distinguish between the two (e.g. he can't see any difference in outcome based upon the way he does it versus there actually isn't any difference in outcome). Still going to use the same surgeon?

There's no doubt that some people just want their camera to get above some random bar and they're happy with that. Why those people would need to come to an Internet forum and debate whether there are differences or not escapes me.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
The big gain to me in shooting RAW is that you have at least one good stop of head room regarding highlight recovery.
Actually, this gets right to the bit count difference, too. You don't actually have "recovery" of highlight information, you have more ability to finely place values within more bits. The camera recording a JPEG (or TIFF for that matter) always generates a linearity transfer of the raw data to final pixel data, and for the most part the camera makers have correctly ascertained that middle-range contrast is the area where most people perceive dramatic differences. In some cameras when you run a step wedge on their JPEGs, you can actually see the hump in the midrange (which means that the shadows and highlights are being compressed. With raw--and especially since you're dealing with the data in 16-bit space--you have more ability to place not just the highlight data where you want it, but where it is in relationship to the rest of the data (a "curve," if you will--someone, it might have been Willmore, once said "every manipulation boils down to curves in the end"). When you play with the Exposure, Recovery, Fill, and Black point sliders in Lightroom, you're essentially creating a complex linearity curve.
That said you can still take some really nice photos in jpeg only.
It's never been my contention that you can't take good JPEG images. You can. But you have little margin for error. And when you do make an error and have to post process them, it is quite possible to get into situations where the bits aren't there.

(I should point out that Dan Margulis lately has been demonstrating some remarkable recovery techniques. He shows images--in 8-bit JPEG ;~)--that look unrecoverable. Yet by using his latest channels tricks, he does just that. However, there are a couple of tricks to the trick. First, you have to know where you're going. Restoring a skin tone, for instance, is possible because we know what a skin tone should look like. Thus, all we have to do is keep modifying bits until we get something that's a believable skin tone. Skin tones also make good candidates for massive restorations because they have easy boundaries and fill large areas (i.e. are easy to create area selections for). But is that skin tone actually the skin tone that was originally there? After all, a really good pixel artist could also paint skin tone into that spot, too, and using a tablet to draw something pixel by pixel isn't something we'd normally call "photography.")

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
This is an offshoot of another thread I started, that has kind of turned into a RAW vs. JPEG question.
I actually gave an answer there.
...I will have to confess, I could not tell her exactly why we should be doing this, other than being able to reproduce a higher resolution picture that could be used to make a poster or for cropping.

I know there are other reasons. So could you help me out here. EXACTLY what editing can I do with a RAW picture that I can not do with a good resolution JPEG (i.e. adjust white balance, contrast, sharpen, brightness, etc.). Can I do (edit) all of this stuff with JPEGs or are some of these actions or others only possible with the RAW picture.
Saying something is only possible by doing it one way is not the same as saying it might be preferable to doing it another way. I have found that after a reasonable learning curve, that I spend less time editing RAW files and achieve better results than when I shot JPEG only.

Working with RAW data you can always start from scratch instead of adjusting already "baked" WB, contrast, brightness, etcetera. Additionally, with RAW you can bring the 12 or 14 bit files into a 16 bit workspace, which is far less destructive than attempting to edit 8 bit data.

Also, with RAW you can:
  • Increase dynamic range by utilizing ETTR
  • Adjust Picture Control after the fact
  • Take advantage of better RAW converters (both present and future)
With RAW you always have the potential to get more from a file -- and that's a considerable part of what Ansel Adams was talking about when he said photos are made and not taken. With JPEG you have placed a limitation on how much you will be able to improve the photo, and in doing that you threw away over 90% of the original data.
--
Anthony Beach
 
The big gain to me in shooting RAW is that you have at least one good stop of head room regarding highlight recovery.
Actually, this gets right to the bit count difference, too. You don't actually have "recovery" of highlight information, you have more ability to finely place values within more bits
I hadn't thought about this in that way but sure you are correct. You look at the RAW converters and it says Highlight Recovery, the action taken though is as you say.
That said you can still take some really nice photos in jpeg only.
(I should point out that Dan Margulis lately has been demonstrating some remarkable recovery techniques. He shows images--in 8-bit JPEG ;~)--that look unrecoverable. Yet by using his latest channels tricks, he does just that. However, there are a couple of tricks to the trick. First, you have to know where you're going. Restoring a skin tone, for instance, is possible because we know what a skin tone should look like. Thus, all we have to do is keep modifying bits until we get something that's a believable skin tone. Skin tones also make good candidates for massive restorations because they have easy boundaries and fill large areas (i.e. are easy to create area selections for). But is that skin tone actually the skin tone that was originally there? After all, a really good pixel artist could also paint skin tone into that spot, too, and using a tablet to draw something pixel by pixel isn't something we'd normally call "photography.")
True, I gave up on a certain professional wedding lab because they think everyone is caucasian, or it seemed so anyway ! At any rate, they were the reason I started editing and printing my own photos maybe 8 years ago or so. I do admit to some painting of faces too if the situation was bad enough. Mostly we do blemish repair though and hopefully have caught the skin tones pretty much correctly during the shoot, at least tweakable if off.

Interesting Thom, thanks !
David
--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies (21 and counting)
http://www.bythom.com
 
With RAW you always have the potential to get more from a file -- and that's a considerable part of what Ansel Adams was talking about when he said photos are made and not taken. With JPEG you have placed a limitation on how much you will be able to improve the photo, and in doing that you threw away over 90% of the original data.
--
You're overstating the case a little. To be fair, I think you have to put some caveats on that statement. JPEG compression wouldn't throw away 90% of the data if you were setting the camera up to produce "best quality" JPEG's. The size of a D300 NEF file is 19.4 MB, or if you shoot 14-bit, it's 25.3 MB. The size of a JPEG file varies with settings such as quality, size, sharpening, etc., but according to the D300 manual, a typical file for a large fine size priority JPEG runs 5.8 MB, and the "Optimal Quality" setting makes the files even bigger. So the amount of data being thrown away could be fairly argued to be as much as 75%, I guess, but to say JPEG throws away 90% of the data, I think you'd have to be talking about a less than optimal level of quality for the JPEG.

To take the point even further, a lossless compressed 14-bit NEF runs only 16.7 MB, so I could argue that the amount of "meaningful" data being thrown away is less than 65%.

Ray
 
With RAW you always have the potential to get more from a file -- and that's a considerable part of what Ansel Adams was talking about when he said photos are made and not taken. With JPEG you have placed a limitation on how much you will be able to improve the photo, and in doing that you threw away over 90% of the original data.
--
You're overstating the case a little. To be fair, I think you have to put some caveats on that statement. JPEG compression wouldn't throw away 90% of the data if you were setting the camera up to produce "best quality" JPEG's.
Compression discards data in addition to the 90% I alluded to. Now whether or not you need all the data in a 12 bit file or not is another matter.
The size of a D300 NEF file is 19.4 MB, or if you shoot 14-bit, it's 25.3 MB. The size of a JPEG file varies with settings such as quality, size, sharpening, etc., but according to the D300 manual, a typical file for a large fine size priority JPEG runs 5.8 MB, and the "Optimal Quality" setting makes the files even bigger. So the amount of data being thrown away could be fairly argued to be as much as 75%, I guess, but to say JPEG throws away 90% of the data, I think you'd have to be talking about a less than optimal level of quality for the JPEG.
You are confusing the size of the files with the data contained therein. JPEG files are demosaiced and the individual pixels have the presumed colors from the surrounding photosites mixed in with them and then it is reduced to 256 levels for each color channel and wrapped up in a color profile and color space that you are then permanently locked into with those files. RAW files are not demosaiced and each pixel represents the level of light captured in one color to the nearest 1/4096 value for 12 bits and to the nearest 1/16,384 value for 14 bits.
To take the point even further, a lossless compressed 14-bit NEF runs only 16.7 MB, so I could argue that the amount of "meaningful" data being thrown away is less than 65%.
"Meaningful" is the operative word here. Lets just say its meaningful value is double, that's still a lot of potential to be throwing out.
--
Anthony Beach
 
With RAW you always have the potential to get more from a file -- and that's a considerable part of what Ansel Adams was talking about when he said photos are made and not taken. With JPEG you have placed a limitation on how much you will be able to improve the photo, and in doing that you threw away over 90% of the original data.
--
You're overstating the case a little. To be fair, I think you have to put some caveats on that statement. JPEG compression wouldn't throw away 90% of the data if you were setting the camera up to produce "best quality" JPEG's.
Compression discards data in addition to the 90% I alluded to. Now whether or not you need all the data in a 12 bit file or not is another matter.
The size of a D300 NEF file is 19.4 MB, or if you shoot 14-bit, it's 25.3 MB. The size of a JPEG file varies with settings such as quality, size, sharpening, etc., but according to the D300 manual, a typical file for a large fine size priority JPEG runs 5.8 MB, and the "Optimal Quality" setting makes the files even bigger. So the amount of data being thrown away could be fairly argued to be as much as 75%, I guess, but to say JPEG throws away 90% of the data, I think you'd have to be talking about a less than optimal level of quality for the JPEG.
You are confusing the size of the files with the data contained therein. JPEG files are demosaiced and the individual pixels have the presumed colors from the surrounding photosites mixed in with them and then it is reduced to 256 levels for each color channel and wrapped up in a color profile and color space that you are then permanently locked into with those files. RAW files are not demosaiced and each pixel represents the level of light captured in one color to the nearest 1/4096 value for 12 bits and to the nearest 1/16,384 value for 14 bits.
No, sorry, but I think you're confused here - a RAW file cannot contain any more than 25.3 MB of information. That would be theoretically impossible. The fact that the demosaiced file size is bigger is irrelevant. It's only bigger because there is redundant information in the image data once the raw data has been de-mosaiced To say it another way, neighboring pixels are highly correlated in color, so there is much less information there than 3*14 bits per pixel. I stand by my contention that the JPEG file can't be throwing away 90% of the data unless you're talking about very low levels of quality (i. e., very high levels of compression and perhaps, lower resolution).
To take the point even further, a lossless compressed 14-bit NEF runs only 16.7 MB, so I could argue that the amount of "meaningful" data being thrown away is less than 65%.
"Meaningful" is the operative word here. Lets just say its meaningful value is double, that's still a lot of potential to be throwing out.
Yes, I agree there's a lot of extra potential in the raw file. I'm just being picky about not wanting to overstate the case. If we were really throwing away 90% of the meaningful data, the difference in quality between an image produced from the raw file and the best quality JPEG would make your eyes pop out. A factor of two may be about right - it's enough to be clearly detectable, but you still have to look closely. I shoot NEF almost all the time now, so I'm not arguing against shooting raw - I just don't like to exaggerate the benefits.

Best regards,

Ray
 
The fact that the demosaiced file size is bigger is irrelevant. It's only bigger because there is redundant information in the image data once the raw data has been de-mosaiced
I don't believe that's true. There is more than one way to demosaic the RAW data. And according to Iliah and others there is the potential for improved RAW converters that will outperform current software and camera firmware. That's one of the reasons I shoot RAW -- in the expectation that I'll have the option of using improved converters at some point in the future.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top