E-P1 support, loyalty, improved E-P2...

ChowMonkey said:

Raist3d said:

Of course, in the end, if they are going to feel truly cheated, then sure, buy no more Olympus. That's certainly also a choice. I think it's kinda silly given the rationale but that's certainly their choice.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's in the end my own problem. However I own the Canon 5D which is still a cam which has economical value if I decide to sell it in favor for the Mark II. If Olympus releases the E-P1 Mark II just after the Mark I it has no economical value at all.. In that case I would feel cheated and would never invest a penny in this brand again.

Click to expand...

That is certainly your choice. I honestly think that seeing any of these cameras as investments is very denialist of the realities of this market. Also consider the Canon 5D is on another class of camera and price bracket than the Pen. You don't see this year's P&S retain value- with the big exception of something like the Panasonic LX3.

ChowMonkey said:

I agree the tech market is moving fast. But even a marketing student knows there is more than only releasing fast. It's about building a loyal userbase also.

Click to expand...

Certainly if the majority of the users are going to feel cheated, then Olympus has a problem (whether I would agree with the rationale of such set or not is a different matter). But that doesn't change the points I raised about the logic of feeling cheated in this case, which is what I am trying to address.

I just find a bit silly people are used to this in the PC market but not the digital camera market? I mean by now even?

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'

theunz said:

This is pretty much like G1 and GH1 to me.
--

Click to expand...

I think the GH1 kit is twice the price of the G1 kit.. If the E-P2 would be twice the price of the E-P1 I don't think there will be anymore discussion. However if the E-P2 is priced like the GF1 it's only slightly more expensive than the E-P1 was at launch.

Raist3d said:

3. As I have mentioned many many times before, (and as Dave Lively explained here http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=33540224 ), faster AF as Olympus themselves said many times requires not only a firmware solution but also new hardware.

That said, I am not particularly expecting a big jump here yet from the Pen, and I still expect the Panasonics to do faster AF.

Click to expand...

Ricardo, Dave didn't "explain", he merely stated that faster AF might require faster hardware and speculated it's what the EP1 needs. As duartix tried to "explain" several times, it's also very likely they could improve it through software optimisation.

Just curious about the "as Olympus themselves said many times..." part, could you provide a link?

--
my 'review' of the Olympus PEN E-P1 - http://www.catbag.net/wp/?p=173

With a P&S you don't buy into a system. With m43 you do. This a quite a difference. When buying into a system economical value is important. Unless you don't mind throwing camera's away every 4 months when better cams are launched
--
Forum for Dutch speaking users on http://www.dslrwereld.nl

Auto makers have a business model that controls the expectations of the market and everyone knows that the next improved model isn't coming until next year. If you're clamoring for a completely rediesigned version of the Ford Focus, the 3rd generation from the ground up redesigned MK III is coming in 2010 and everyone is patiently awaiting it without suffering from too many bees in their bonnet.

Camera companies as you say have devleopment schedules and deadlines determined by the length of the development project and the situation faced in the marketplace which is most often dictated by the competition. They have no model in place to control expectations and can't promise that they'll stick to any kind of regular interval between upgraded models and especially between introductions of ground up redesigns.

For me as a consumer, I like the camera scenario a lot better. It allows for faster product cycles with more improvements coming faster and faster it seems. The angst thing with elation or disappointment depending on whether you're getting what you want when you want it is hard to deal with when you want what you're not getting. But when a breakthrough product like mFT for example has excited you and offered something that you've always wanted and now it's finally here, the angst thing is a small price to pay for not being forced to patiently wait until next year and then maybe the year after that.

I have a personal rule of thumb for cars and cameras. No replacing it for several years no matter what once I've decided to buy it, defects aside of course. I've used my 5D for four years and will not buy a 5D2 because it just isn't so totally superior for what I do that I just can't live my original 5D anymore. When my GF1 arrives, it's going to serve me well for a long time as well. So I have been patiently waiting after all the but the chaotic product cycles of upgrades and new models with digital cameras has shortened that wait so that mFt is here and now. Some you guys will just have to keep pulling out your hair waiting for the Pen with fast AF and a built in EVF while I'm out having fun. I might buy it too when it arrives just so that I can have 2 mFT bodies. Together, they will still be less than the $2800 thyat I spent 4 years ago.

Bollo said:

I don't think that's how other camera manufacturers operate. If you had bought the Nikon D90, for example, the day it was announced, you could have been damn sure there would be no D95 or D90 mk II only couple of months later that would plummet your camera's resale value. This is because Nikon makes damn sure the camera they release are ready to be released and do not launch a product too early for purely opportunistical reasons, e.g. to take advantage of some "window of opportunity".

Click to expand...

Actually some of this as I mentioned is relative, but what you said I don't agree with. Check the Nikon 40dx - and consider that the price bracket this camera was released at and market, is pretty similar to the Pen in many ways:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond40x/

"The Nikon D40 was announced just under four months ago, and yet here we are with a new version of that camera. The D40X has the same compact lightweight body and easy to use control layout, in fact the only external physical difference is the badge."

Nikon saw they needed to respond to Canon and they did.

Bollo said:

Of course there are many different aproaches you can take in dealing with your customers, but I think that showing some respect for customers benefits you in the long run.

Click to expand...

I think if the new model is at a higher price and the older model still suported in general, I don't see that as disrespect.

Bollo said:

This is not a the PC market because when you buy a DSLR / EVIL camera you buy into a system and you want to trust the company you're going to deal with for a long time.

Click to expand...

When you buy a PC you buy a Windows PC, and you get a certain say video card (example). It's the same thing. When you buy the camera, your lenses continue working. Whether you swap the bodies or not it's up to you.

Bollo said:

But yes, we haven't seen the specs yet.

Click to expand...

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'

ChowMonkey said:

With a P&S you don't buy into a system. With m43 you do. This a quite a difference. When buying into a system economical value is important. Unless you don't mind throwing camera's away every 4 months when better cams are launched

Click to expand...

But that is part of my point: why do you feel you need to throw away the camera every 4 months? Isn't that your own choice? The Pen either presented by itself a value proposition or it didn't. If you pulled the trigger to buy one, that is your choice. (saying "your" in general terms including me and you).

But moreover, the lenses you bought carry on to the next model. My point is, at this price bracket, you don't see other entry DSLR's holding their value either, like the 5D (thus I don't think the Canon 5D example is valid).

ChowMonkey said:

--
Forum for Dutch speaking users on http://www.dslrwereld.nl

Click to expand...

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'

efix said:

You're right, I was making assumptions and meant "assuming", not "considering". I'm not a native speaker, sorry.

Click to expand...

No worries, I am not a native speaker either. To be clear, when I said assumptions I meant it more not as a word nit pick but as far as the logical propositions presented in your reply- like "the Pen has leeway for improving AF" - we don't know that, it could very well be at its limits as far as noticeable speedups go (talking about the current model of course).

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'

of many that may even go with many at the same time.

It's quite possible the model was in the wings and they re allocated resources to make it happen much faster seeing the response to the Pen. That seems quite reasonable to me.

madmaxmedia said:

Also, it's possible that EP-1 sales surpassed Olympus' expectations, allowing them to spend more resources to bring out a succeeding model faster than they originally planned.

In the long run that's a good thing for all Olympus and M 4/3 owners.

Click to expand...

Agreed, and I think many are missing this.

madmaxmedia said:

--
'By my discipline of seeing I put myself where photographs can find themselves.'
-Minor White

Click to expand...

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'

ChowMonkey said:

It all depends on the features of the E-P2. But no E-P1 buyer ever expected to see the E-P2 in only a few months after the release of the E-P1. So when the E-P2 is a fixed E-P1 ppl will feel screwed.

Click to expand...

I dunno. Lets look at the timeline of DSLRs announced:

• E-420 in March
• E-520 in May
• E-30 in November
• E-620 in February
• E-450 in March
• E-P1 in June
• E-600 is not really announced

So you have multiple cameras coming at brisk rate. Boo hoo. Do these same people feel betrayed when Intel or AMD announces new computer chips? Or when Ford, Chevy, GM, Honda, etc. come out with new models. You can get in a feedback loop where you will never buy a camera, always waiting for the next big thing.

If the announcement is next week, that is still 4 months after the original E-P1 announcement.

Now, I happen to have the money saved to buy an E-P1, and my store is having their big sale today through Sunday. Will I buy the E-P1 anyway or will I wait? I don't know at this point. I suspect if the store has a killer deal, I may go with the E-P1 (you know the old bird in the hand saying). If the deal isn't that much off the current retail price, I may wait a week or two to see if an announcement is made.

If an announcement is made I will decide whether I want to build up more money to buy the E-P2 or go back to the E-P1. Also, if the initial delivery is to long, I may go with the E-P1.

I had a similar thing happen in 2008, when I had enough money to buy the E-510 which was just announced in May. Now, while the E-510 is a nice camera, the E-3 answers more of my needs. There were leaks surrounding the release of the E-3, but it ultimately would not be released until November, and I had to make the decision to buy the E-510 and live without going to the E-3 for awhile, or wait until the E-3 was announced and possibly have my cash stockpile used for something else. I made the choice to go with the E-510.

Raist3d said:

But that is part of my point: why do you feel you need to throw away the camera every 4 months? Isn't that your own choice? The Pen either presented by itself a value proposition or it didn't.

Click to expand...

It did 4 months ago when I and many other wouldn't expect the E-P1.1

I understand your point and I agree. However if Olympus was aware of releasing the 1.1 4 months later that's not a logical development of cams. It's cheating ppl into buying the E-P1 by withholding information on an upcoming 1.1 just 4 months later.

Nobody can convince me Olympus wasn't aware of some technological breakthrough in just a few months. And thats cheating in my book.. Is like Leica now sells the M9 knowing they will launch the 9.2 in just 4 months from now.

with a very special hard to build lens that is expensive. It's not just that the "GH1 is twice the price" but look what lens it comes with.

Also the GH1 sports a different sensor (14 mp for doing the crops for the aspect ratios without resolution loss) and can capture full hi def video. Video was another thing that was talked about since micro four thirds as a standard was promoted/established the very first time. Shall G1 owners feel cheated the next model had video? Doesn't seem to me all that different from say Pen owners knowing Olympus was working on a 2nd model.

ChowMonkey said:

theunz said:

This is pretty much like G1 and GH1 to me.
--

Click to expand...

I think the GH1 kit is twice the price of the G1 kit.. If the E-P2 would be twice the price of the E-P1 I don't think there will be anymore discussion. However if the E-P2 is priced like the GF1 it's only slightly more expensive than the E-P1 was at launch.

Click to expand...

I think the point is moot is the differences are slight. I can see a light price increase or a drop on the Pen.

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'

Michael Meissner said:

I dunno. Lets look at the timeline of DSLRs announced:

• E-420 in March
• E-520 in May
• E-30 in November
• E-620 in February
• E-450 in March
• E-P1 in June
• E-600 is not really announced

Click to expand...

Only the E-420 and E-450 are in same class and there is a year between the releases. That's the whole point. A year is not 4 months.. if the E-P2 is in a different priceclass with loads of other features nobody will complain. However the name E-P2 sounds like a successor. Not like a different m43 cam like there is a big difference between the E-450 and the E-30.

Sylvain G said:

Raist3d said:

3. As I have mentioned many many times before, (and as Dave Lively explained here http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=33540224 ), faster AF as Olympus themselves said many times requires not only a firmware solution but also new hardware.

That said, I am not particularly expecting a big jump here yet from the Pen, and I still expect the Panasonics to do faster AF.

Click to expand...

Ricardo, Dave didn't "explain", he merely stated that faster AF might require faster hardware and speculated it's what the EP1 needs. As duartix tried to "explain" several times, it's also very likely they could improve it through software optimisation.

Click to expand...

Duartix claims that but I ended up disagreeing with him it was that easy (and I have my own experiences and knowledge to stand my ground there). I personally think he's overlooking several things and it's not as easy as he suggest. Let's think this through: Olympus designs some very advanced pieces of equipment (just look at their JPEG engine) and Duartix makes it sound like this software writing is a trivial thing to do. What is the logical conclusion here? If Olympus has the brains to come out with something like the JPEG engine they have, they are going to miss of a simple "AF algorithm done with binary search" or such thing? And then not include it in the Pen when that would but the model at a market disadvantage? I am sorry but I for one can't believe that much.

As for Dave, Dave explained why in a very possible way speeding the Pen much can't be done. Many people don't even consider this very valid possibility and explanation. Combine that with what Olympus said themselves and we have a winner.

Sylvain G said:

Just curious about the "as Olympus themselves said many times..." part, could you provide a link?

Click to expand...

You know I have provided this link in this forum now like three times! Let's do it a fourth time

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=32925830

Sylvain G said:

--
my 'review' of the Olympus PEN E-P1 - http://www.catbag.net/wp/?p=173

Click to expand...

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'

madmaxmedia said:

Also, it's possible that EP-1 sales surpassed Olympus' expectations, allowing them to spend more resources to bring out a succeeding model faster than they originally planned.

In the long run that's a good thing for all Olympus and M 4/3 owners.

Click to expand...

Given Olympus seems to manufacture bodies in batches, I suspect what happened is the E-P1 sold more then their estimates, and the warehouses are starting to get empty. Due to the batch system, they can't just extend the production line to make more bodies to satisfy the demand. So it is possible that instead of doing the E-4 batch, Olympus pushed up the E-P2 schedule (been there, done that, in fact I've been burning the midnight oil to make several tech releases right now) and made the E-P2 batch come out earlier in time for the December holiday season (few people would give an E-4 as a gift, but the E-P2 is more likely).

While the profit margin on each E-4 is likely to be higher than the profit margin on each E-P2, I would imagine Olympus will sell magnitudes more E-P2's than E-4's.

Ok, for the record, can we agree Nikon did/does the same thing?

ChowMonkey said:

Raist3d said:

But that is part of my point: why do you feel you need to throw away the camera every 4 months? Isn't that your own choice? The Pen either presented by itself a value proposition or it didn't.

Click to expand...

It did 4 months ago when I and many other wouldn't expect the E-P1.1

Click to expand...

I think that's an assumption made on an electronics digital market that is a very dangerous one to make. And that goes into the "do I wait or do I buy?" I personally think everyone should look at their individual needs, priorities, preferences, financial situation and see what is available at the time of such needs, and make the choice irrespective of what comes next.

ChowMonkey said:

I understand your point and I agree. However if Olympus was aware of releasing the 1.1 4 months later that's not a logical development of cams. It's cheating ppl into buying the E-P1 by withholding information on an upcoming 1.1 just 4 months later.

Click to expand...

Olympus said they were working on a new model that would be released by year's end. This is exactly what is happening.

ChowMonkey said:

Nobody can convince me Olympus wasn't aware of some technological breakthrough in just a few months. And thats cheating in my book.. Is like Leica now sells the M9 knowing they will launch the 9.2 in just 4 months from now.

Click to expand...

Every company has an internal road map of future cameras. Olympus knew that the e-620 was being worked on most likely, by the time the e-420 wasn't even out. Does that mean they were cheating? Was Canon cheating when they knew about the 7D having the 50D not even out in the market?

I realize we have to wait for the final announcement but I don't see for example, two models at slightly different price brackets, cheating. This is how pretty much everything else with different models work.

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'

reasonable explanation. Thanks for adding that.
--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'

ChowMonkey said:

Michael Meissner said:

I dunno. Lets look at the timeline of DSLRs announced:

• E-420 in March
• E-520 in May
• E-30 in November
• E-620 in February
• E-450 in March
• E-P1 in June
• E-600 is not really announced

Click to expand...

Only the E-420 and E-450 are in same class and there is a year between the releases. That's the whole point. A year is not 4 months.. if the E-P2 is in a different priceclass with loads of other features nobody will complain. However the name E-P2 sounds like a successor. Not like a different m43 cam like there is a big difference between the E-450 and the E-30.

Click to expand...

I would argue the E-4xx and E-5xx are in the same market given that they have $100 between them. Again, you had the E-420 come out in March, and the E-520 in May at a $100 premium. As far as I can tell, both sold. In fact, it is classical marketing, where you come out with one model first, and then the more expensive model second with more features.

I've got an E-P1 since its launch in France, and I was glad to use for my holidays.

I am just disappointed to see Olympus launching a almost identical camera only 4 months later.

Assumption : the epson's EVF is not ready for the June launch, but Olympus knew that it will be ready before year end. So why on earth didn't they release an E-P1 with a EVF/mic port like the E-P2?

They could have said that the EVF and the mic will be available at year end ! Instead they slash the EVF/mic, said it was useless and offer an optical useless piece of glass the VF-1 ! Of course announcing the EVF at June would have killed the VF-1 sales !

So now don't tell me that it was too difficult to put a EVF/mic port into the E-P1 from the start.

I was going to mention also- this goes all tied to what each individual is doing with their photography, in the end, and the thought that a camera is related to the photographs (at least for a set of people).

--
Raist3d (Photographer & Tools/Systems/Gui Games Developer)
Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'