GRDIII, LX3 or S90 for my pockets

In Sydney and I use http://www.shopbot.com.au to seek prices. Local high, cheaper via Hong Kong suppliers, but of course warranty issues are more reliable from an Aussie company.

One time I bought a Casio camera that became unobtainable in Australia. The Hong Kong price was way cheaper than the last local price and the warranty was covered by the importer. No problems with the unit anyway, plus the Hong Kong version (of that Casio at least) came with a variety of power cords to suit all destinations.

I still recommend the LX3 even though I may get booed in this forum....

Regards........... Guy
 
Thanks Mitch.

You are right about the Australian Price. It's almost AU$1,000 right now but the Aussie dollar is well and truly on the rise against the US $ and already @ US$82 and rising so whilst the next lot of stock coming in will cost less I guess, it will not help me. I will not be going to France right away but I guess I can write him or call him from Austria. There is also a dealer in Vienna (The Leica shop), who seem to have Ricohs at a good price too, though I did not see a price for the GRDIII yet.
 
Thanks for that heads up Guy. Buying that way is always a bit of a risk but I'll see closer to the date.

Dubai is somewhere I shall be going through a lot too usually with stopovers so I will check there too.

I know I would be happy enough with an LX3 but I do have large fingers (Women seem to like the look of them but I don't), and I must say that I find the LX3 controls very fiddly even if quite logical. I have not seen an LX3 in shops for months so they must be very good. Having said that, I'm sure I would be happy enough with the Canon too with it's lens ring.
 
He he he. My point exactly about fora and the never ending slide of the language. Um... how about meece by the way.

Seriously though I have two real pet hates as regards the crime of language abuse.

One is the continual use of double negatives (I aint never goin to get no blah blah for example) And my alltime number one pet hate is the hijacking of a word I don't seem now to be able to adequately replace. The word "Gay"! Well ....... so what is so very wrong with the word poofter if you are going to have a deritative name for a group of people?

After all in a quiet room with two of them going at it, wouldn't poofter be the sound one is most likely to hear? Poofter, poofter poofter etc.

At least one can use poofter in a legal sense seeing as it's entered in the Oxford Dictionary. We give in on these matters far too easily.

The points you make about the LX3 are very well founded Guy. I promise to have another look before purchase if I can find one. I do love that glass a lot. "They are rarer than hens teeth", is an Aussie saying that properly describes their availability here in Australia.
 
Guy, I just thought that for the record I don't have any bad feelings towards Homosexuals at all. I hope that better explains my position regarding the language thingy.

I just think it would be nice if they were to find another generic name for themselves or alternatively even give us another word to use in lieu of "gay"that might be universally accepted, though how you could do that is beyond my little grey cells.

Saying like we did when I was a kid that we had a gay time sounded and meant much more than words such as great or fine etc.

Ok ....... so I should now dismount from that particular 'Hobby Horse".
 
mitchall wrote:

The GX100 has the same lens as the GX200 and there is no comparison, as you would expect, between this zoom lens and the GRD3 prime lens. The files of the latter camera are also much more robust and can be manipulated with much heavier contrast moves in post-processing, which is what I find compelling. Also, at the 72mm end of the range, the GX100/200 lens is quite soft.
I find it to be quite acceptable, I only stopped down for DoF, F4.5 is plenty sharp enough, although possibly not plenty wide enough for Roger's needs.



I wouldn't consider the GX200 a 'shirt pocket' camera, simply because of the flash and lens bumps (and attraction for lint ;)). Any GRD would feel much happier there, but possibly a Y-strap could be better for convenience and safety.

http://figitalrevolution.com/y-strap/

Never tried one, but looks nifty.
On forum/fora and datum/data: if course that is the correct Latin, but in English colloquial, and even official, usage, "forums" for the plural instead "fora" and "data" instead of "datum" for the singular, are now accepted. It's like answering the question "who it is" when knocking on a door: you wouldn't say the gramatically correct "it is I"; you would say "it's me".
I do believe in language evolving, not that it matters what I believe, it DOES evolve, and since recognising this I have learned it is less stressful and anti-social to 'go with the flow'. Language is simply a tool for communication and expression. So while 'fora' may be correct, one will probably be less understood by the 'hoi polloi' (another bastardisation, since 'hoi' is a greek definite article -> "the the people") than if one had used 'forums', which causes no confusion.

Still, 'fora' is common enough too, and you clearly understood Roger. If anyone is a grammar pedant (myself excluded of course!) I would say it is you for picking up Roger and saying he wrote something 'wrong', not Roger for choosing a word for accuracy and effect. Use of language can define personality, and to me, by use of the word 'fora', Roger has expressed himself as someone with an observative eye for detail and care in presentation; valuable tools for any photographer. (Not saying you do not possess equal or greater skills, only that you may express them photographically and not linguistically,... stop digging Ben! )

Working as a scientist and having a classical education (Latin and Ancient Greek) I value the use of 'datum', when referring to a reference position or single data point. However, just there, 'data point' explained 'datum' just fine, but language is more eloquent with fewer words, enabled by having more to work with. ;) I don't expect others to value the distinction, even though they may recognise it, but half of my job writing technical failure investigation reports revolves around a linguistic expectation for technical terms, aimed more at peer review and accurate record of findings rather than actually explaining what happened in plain english (e.g. someone f*cked up and broke it)!

I disagree with what you wrote above when you said that 'data' could be used instead of 'datum' for the singular. They are very different in usage and I have never come across anyone using 'data' to describe a 'single' piece of information. Typically 'number' suffices.

'Data' is indeed commonly used as a singular noun, but that does not mean it refers to a singular thing. Instead, as we are all familiar with, 'data' has come to imply a 'set of data', which then becomes singular for grammatical purposes. I always treat data as plural, "these data show that...", because it does nothing to impair understanding and everything to make someone question their own use of language and reflect upon it, as we are doing here. Never a bad thing in my book.

As for 'me' or 'I' usage, you are quite correct. However, what I find amusing (and shouldn't) is when people 'try to talk proper' and put 'I' in places where they should have used 'me', if they wanted to be 'correct', as recent grammarians may define such a thing. If anyone is still reading this and wants to know why, here it is, because I only recently clarified things in my head when these easy examples were shown to me. For any non-native english speakers grappling with the idiosyncracies of this language it may also be useful.

Which sentences are correct?

1. "Mitch and I went to the launch party of the new Ricoh camera"
2. "Mitch and me went to the launch party of the new Ricoh camera"
3. "A pre-production camera was given to Mitch and I to play with"
4. "A pre-production camera was given to Mitch and me to play with"

Answer?

Clearly none of them are correct as I've never met Mitch and Ricoh haven't thrown a secret party for us! (Just trying to lift the grammatical gloom ;))

If you answered 1. and 3. you are 'wrong', it is 1. and 4. that are 'correct'.

Why? It's easy when you take Mitch out of the equation (sorry about that my friend, but thanks for taking part).

2. "Me went to the launch party..."
3. "A pre-production camera was given to I..."

Taking the other person out of the equation makes it easy, unless you are Borat, in which case carry on doing it and making us laugh! :D

In 50 years or less the 'rules' will change and this 'young fart' will be an 'old fart'. I don't mind change in grammar at all, and freely chastise anyone clinging to the Tower of Babel still.

But, good language skills are about effective communication, so if someone doesn't know enough about words, grammar and punctuation to make themselves understood without ambiguity, then 'right' or 'wrong' they are not helping themselves and it could be in their interests to do something about it.

Next week: Apostrophe usage!: "Did you get you're 80's CD's from Virgins' sale?"

And yeah, I should be shooting pictures! :D

Ben.
 
Ben, you take me too seriously on the use of "fora": I was just teasing Roger because, these days, it sounds pretentious. But statements like " "Mitch and me went to the launch party" — usually rendered as " "Me and Mitch went to the launch party" — and "between you and I" are simply uneducated speech.
...

Maybe it just like the plural of computer 'mouse' is 'mouses' and not 'mice'. Mice being reserved for the warm and furry variety...
Guy, when I was younger I used to date "stewardii".

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
 
He he he. My point exactly about fora and the never ending slide of the language. Um... how about meece by the way.
My dictionary says that fora is the correct plural for the Roman forum but forums is correct for the sort we have here.
Your writing "slide" is revealing ;)
--
Richard
 
Here's an even nicer example. The overall sharpness of the cheapo Panasonic 14-45 kit lens (that comes bundled with the G1 and GF1) beats the $900 Panasonic 45/2.8 Macro lens. Both lenses are at f/5.6, which for the kit lens is wide open.

(click to expand)



Seriously, has anyone ever compared the GX and GR lenses under controlled conditions? If so, what where the differences?

Prog.
 
...Seriously, has anyone ever compared the GX and GR lenses under controlled conditions? If so, what where the differences?
Sean Reid has on his excellent (pay) site in his review of the GRD2: he ran rigorous test photo comparisons, and his conclusion was similar to mine.

Indeed, there are zoom lenses that are superior to many primes; but these, notably, are the Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G AF-S and the Nikkor Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G AF-S — not zoom lenses on small-sensor cameras.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/malland/sets/72157622521614095/show/
 
...Seriously, has anyone ever compared the GX and GR lenses under controlled conditions? If so, what where the differences?
Sean Reid has on his excellent (pay) site in his review of the GRD2: he ran rigorous test photo comparisons, and his conclusion was similar to mine.

Indeed, there are zoom lenses that are superior to many primes; but these, notably, are the Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G AF-S and the Nikkor Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G AF-S — not zoom lenses on small-sensor cameras.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/malland/sets/72157622521614095/show/
I can find Mr Reids site but I cannot find how to pay to view anything? is there a secret?

Thanks
 
I can find Mr Reids site but I cannot find how to pay to view anything? is there a secret?
As a former subscriber to his site I highly recommend that you insist on trying before buying. Sean Reid may be an excellent writer, but the Flash-based layout of his site is probably the worst I've ever encountered:
  • Text size can't be changed (it's too small for my eyesight)
  • It doesn't support 1024x768 screen resolution (the text doesn't wrap; the site displays a horizontal scrollbar)
  • PageUp and PageDown buttons don't work.
  • The browser's Back and Forward buttons don't work
  • Printing articles for off-line reading is blocked
  • The browser's text search option (Ctrl+F) doesn't work
  • Selecting the text (to copy it to another viewer) is blocked
  • There is no way to save a Favorite/Bookmark to a specific article
To me reidreviews.com isn't worth the $33 a year it costs. It was too annoying to be worth the bother, so it really gave me no value at all.

Prog.
 
Sean Reid has on his excellent (pay) site in his review of the GRD2: he ran rigorous test photo comparisons, and his conclusion was similar to mine.
Too bad I missed that when I was a subscriber. I gave up on reading his reviews pretty quickly, even though I paid for them. See the other post as to why.
Indeed, there are zoom lenses that are superior to many primes; but these, notably, are the Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G AF-S and the Nikkor Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G AF-S — not zoom lenses on small-sensor cameras.
Actually, it's the opposite. The smaller the sensor the easier it is to keep optical aberrations under control. You can verify this quite easily by going over the lens tests at cameralabs.com and comparing tests of lenses for small-sensor cameras vs. lenses with similar focal-length range for DSLR's. You'll see that lenses for small-sensor cameras typically have less distortion, vignetting and CA under the same (equivalent) focal lengths.

In general, zoom lenses are more challenging to design, so they benefit more from the small-sensor and tiny optics.

If you look at the GX100 and GRD reviews on this site, you'll see that when it comes to lens resolving power, the GX lens is far ahead of the GRD lens:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricohgx100/page12.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricohgrd/page10.asp

2000x1950 LPH vs. 1550x1500 LPH - way better than what the 2MP difference should account for (and way better than other 10MP cameras for that matter).

Do you expect the GRD2 or GRD3 lenses to reverse this outcome over the GX200 lens?

Prog.
 
1. "Mitch and I went to the launch party of the new Ricoh camera"
2. "Mitch and me went to the launch party of the new Ricoh camera"
3. "A pre-production camera was given to Mitch and I to play with"
4. "A pre-production camera was given to Mitch and me to play with"

Er ..... sorry but 1 is incorrect coz it shouolda had the word 'for' in lieu of 'of'.
3 is in fact correct coz taking Mitch outa the equation does change everything.

4 is definitely incorrect. shoulda used I not me. one should never refer to ones self as me when used together with another bloke or blokess. Always I and I always comes after the other person of course otherwise it shows disrespect for the other person than ones self.

There is in my mind, one problem with alowing language to evolve so quickly and that is that we end up with a severely depleted vocabulary overall but with more words that all sound similar and mean the virtually, but not quite, the very same thing. Actually they cause a considerable amount of confusion.

So...... my worry is that; it's the size or volume of our general use vocabulary diminishing that worries most of us old farts.

Anyway folks.... this whole discussion has been fun and I think we have all had fun but now it's time to run.
 
I can find Mr Reids site but I cannot find how to pay to view anything? is there a secret?
Click on the "subscribe" button at the bottom of the following page:

http://www.reidreviews.com/reidreviews/

...and it takes you through to a subscription form that states that payment is by Paypal or credit card. Unlike Prog. I don't have a myriad of problems with the site, which contains the best camera and lens evaluations that I have found anywhere and is well worth the US$33 entry fee, especially if you're about to spend serious money on equipment.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
 
I can find Mr Reids site but I cannot find how to pay to view anything? is there a secret?
As a former subscriber to his site I highly recommend that you insist on trying before buying. Sean Reid may be an excellent writer, but the Flash-based layout of his site is probably the worst I've ever encountered:
  • Text size can't be changed (it's too small for my eyesight)
  • It doesn't support 1024x768 screen resolution (the text doesn't wrap; the site displays a horizontal scrollbar)
  • PageUp and PageDown buttons don't work.
  • The browser's Back and Forward buttons don't work
  • Printing articles for off-line reading is blocked
  • The browser's text search option (Ctrl+F) doesn't work
  • Selecting the text (to copy it to another viewer) is blocked
  • There is no way to save a Favorite/Bookmark to a specific article
To me reidreviews.com isn't worth the $33 a year it costs. It was too annoying to be worth the bother, so it really gave me no value at all.

Prog.
Thanks....
 
Roger, thanks for reading and commenting, I know you don't need a response (especially one off-topic) but I did not want to appear impolite by not offering one.
1. "Mitch and I went to the launch party of the new Ricoh camera"
2. "Mitch and me went to the launch party of the new Ricoh camera"
3. "A pre-production camera was given to Mitch and I to play with"
4. "A pre-production camera was given to Mitch and me to play with"

Er ..... sorry but 1 is incorrect coz it shouolda had the word 'for' in lieu of 'of'.
I see what you mean for 1., but it depends on whether the Ricoh camera is considered an inanimate object (which it is, admittedly) or is personified and is throwing the party for itself. A difference in style, if you will.

As analogies, one would attend a surprise party for a friend, but a house-warming party of a friend, but in both instances recasting as a friend's party would eliminate any such deliberation! Mea culpa.
3 is in fact correct coz taking Mitch outa the equation does change everything.

4 is definitely incorrect. shoulda used I not me. one should never refer to ones self as me when used together with another bloke or blokess. Always I and I always comes after the other person of course otherwise it shows disrespect for the other person than ones self.
I agree about the word order, to include oneself last is polite.

However, 'always I' surely ignores any usage of the dative (objective) pronoun 'me'. Like any language, my perspective of what is right or wrong is simply based on what I have read and been taught.



Is the author of this book incorrect, or do the rules change when the second-person pronoun 'you' is replaced by a third person pronoun (e.g. 'him') or proper noun (e.g. 'Mitch', as used above)?

I don't believe it does. But whether I am 'right' or 'wrong', I choose to align with those who claim to be authorities on grammar (and my mum, an english teacher). I believe my own communication will be most effective when I use the same rules that the majority of people use, and recognise that I may have to change my own writing and speech to achieve that. As you noted, most of us tailor our words to the audience, whether to better effect communication or to present ourselves differently.

I sincerely hope however that, along with the noted 'double negatives', the increasing prevalance of 'double comparatives' like 'more bigger' , and 'double superlatives' like 'most biggest' , will remain as minor infractions and never reach a majority adoption! ;)
There is in my mind, one problem with alowing language to evolve so quickly and that is that we end up with a severely depleted vocabulary overall but with more words that all sound similar and mean the virtually, but not quite, the very same thing. Actually they cause a considerable amount of confusion.
I agree that depletion of vocabulary is an issue for continued variance and freedom of expression. Words that are little used are likely to fall off the radar to the general populous, and if people aren't hearing or reading them, how will they know if they wish to use them?

This is where education comes in, or should, rather. If children are not exposed to wide vocabularies and experience them in relevant context to value such diversity, then they can never generate new literature, columns or even blogs that use them. Equally, if the retirement of these words is not diminishing the effectiveness and enjoyment of communication, why mourn their passing?
So...... my worry is that; it's the size or volume of our general use vocabulary diminishing that worries most of us old farts.

Anyway folks.... this whole discussion has been fun and I think we have all had fun but now it's time to run.
Let us know how you get on with your new cam! :D

Ben.
 
Sounds like you are getting the usual recommendations of each person's favourite camera or exhortations to consider your potential use. (smile)

Fact is that the GRDIII is probably the only professional level small camera on the market but limited by its fixed wide lens. Find another one with a smoking good f1.9 lens?

If you want the best fast-lensed small camera and you sound like a professional user then there is no contest - the GRDIII has the goods and can deliver.

You will find that it has every control trick in it that your dslr kit has and more - take a week off to understand one of these things - they are not a point and shoot by anyones reckoning.

However if you just need something more casual then all the other contenders are back in the ring - especially if zoom is under consideration.

Furthemore if you are working commercially then you buy ex-GST in Australia. The best prices ex-Hong Kong seem to be in the AUD$760 range - if you add freight and GST on the lot (sorry, you might not pay GST anyway but as a comparison for others) then we are looking at pretty close to effective Australian sourced street prices. .... and yeh - I bought my GRDIII as an early Oz adopter through the local dealer (he gave me a deal) - first and probably the last one he sold - they are a bit advanced and costly for your average regional user.

So perhaps they are not so dear in Oz as is made out.

I am also a bit miffed that local prices have not come down as our dollar has soared and we must wonder at what profit-taking importers are making because of this. Then they complain and carry on about warranty matters ...

All the consumer wants is a reasonable deal, they are prepared to pay a small premium to buy locally but when it gets to rip-off level one can hardly complain when people start direct-importing goods. The world-prices are not a mystery to most any more.

Recent example - I have had a GX100 for some time now - once the LC1 lens cap was released I started asking same local dealer for one - promised. In fact repeatedly promised so many times and slapped his staff about (verbally) over why it had not arrived that I lost count and interest.

Finally bought two in Hong Kong recently - arrived like clockwork and the total cost for both was less that one in Oz - in Ricoh boxes but with Chineses language instructions - the diagrams were in 'universal language' - as if they were necessary.

If local distibutors/retailers wish to continue to exist then they had better stop poking their customers in the eye as if they were idiots.

--
Tom Caldwell
 
Good stuff Ben. Very good in fact.

But how about we all call a truce coz at this stage we can readily see that none of us is the Messiah we are all just naughty boys who deserve being bent over a knee and given a thoroughly good smacking for so comprehensively getting off the subject.

You know what else I found out........ I think I may be a gurly coz I still keep changing my mind.

I can buy an LX3 or Canon S90 for 2/3 the price of a DRDIII, and well, let's face it, the GRDIII is not going to be a AU$350.00 better camera surely? Plus the LX3 has some seriously good improvements now for no extra $$$$. (AU$ worth about US $0.82 today).

I will post when I actually man up and make the purchase but the discussion has been helpful all the same.

Doj
 

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