Fundamentals of PP'ing? ....are there ?

Hi all.

Recently (month or two ago for my overseas trip) I bought a D90 with the kit lens. Looking to get into sports photography (just for a bit of fun, nothing too serious) and was going to be hopefully getting a 70-300 VR.

Now, can someone enlighten me to a few things that are in the dark for me...

When people speak about PP'ing their photos, does this only apply to photos taken in RAW, or can you get some level of adjustment on JPG's too? As I took lots of holiday snaps overseas, there were going to be too many touristy fun photos to take RAW, and I wasnt bothered changing it back and forth.

Also, are there any 1,2 or even 3 functions you use in your PP work? This can be with JPG's or RAW's.... are they contrast, saturation, sharpness etc, and whats so important that you find for these?

Cheers,

Curious Newbie.

ps. Im guessing, if I am to get more into the photography side of things, and away for tourist snaps, I may as well just always shoot RAW+JPG so if there is a want to do some PP'ing, its there?

Forget RAW. You're not even on first base with PP. Shoot jpg.
Get this and use it for a few months then perhaps come back with more questions.
http://www.irfanview.com/

If you don't know what brightness, contrast, saturation, gamma, RGB, CYMK are, do some reading and learning. Lot of good tutorials on web.

cary

You can post process any image but it depends on the softwear you have as to how far you can go with it. All PP softwear has a learning curve as does using your camera correctly. Shoot Jpeg for now and learn to use your camera to best advantage. If you already have softwear and want to experiment thats fine but it takes time that you could be using for photographs. However Raw is where you want to end up if you are serious about photography.
Claude

Well , there are basic "rules".

as others said go with jpg now and hope for the best. As you learn you can switch to raw which is more work later but allows much better "stretchability" of the files. (for clearing up mistakes or artistic purposes..)
you can stretch jpgs quite a bit as well but not quite as much as raw files.
1) make sure you adjust WB , even in jpg you can its just little harder.
2) adjust contrast as needed
these 2 thing have the most impact and can improve a photo a LOT if done right.
Then worry about everything else such as color saturation and sharpening...
--
http://www.infiniteartphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/jps1979/galleries

1. Calibrate your monitor (Gamma of 2.2 and other things; software is available, of if you have a mac - it's inbuilt software.)

2. Find some software. There's a LOT of image editing software out there. You don't NEED to buy lightroom/photoshop etc. Take a look around and find what you want/need based on the costs of each.

3. Read manuals/tutorials, then start to play around with things - there are no true rules, what you like is what you like. If you like vivid colours play with saturation values. Or contrast, etc. Just be careful you don't over do it. It becomes pretty obvious when you over do things, they just don't look correct.

But then, these can be done for specific effects intentionally.

On raw, you do have some more flexibility in bringing back highlights/shadows etc, but the files are massive, it takes longer to do everything.

Yes you can PP jpeg images. Some people, myself included, prefer raw because it easier to make certain adjustments, WB immediately comes to mind as does exposure. The other factor that can come into play is that jpeg images have only 8-bits of color depth per channel (3-channels, RGB), whereas Nikon uses 12 or 14 bits in NEF files. Eight bits allows for 256 shades per channel, while twelve bits yields 4096. With three channels (RGB) and 8-bits you can have approximately 16 million colors (256x256x256); now you can do the math with 4096 (4096x4096x4096).

I believe everyone who does post processing on a regular basis develops their own workflow. The workflow will depend a great deal on the software being used. A person using Photoshop will have a different workflow than a person using Capture NX2.

My workflow when I was using Photoshop Elements usually consisted of first using the Threshold tools to determine where the brightest and darkest spots are within the frame (and sometimes also the mid-tone) so I can set the white and black points and sometimes the gray point using the Levels tool; this really helps fine tune the WB. I usually use USM (UnSharp Mask) to increase local contrast; I frequently use the Shadows & Highlights tool and maybe adjust the Curves. Finally I will apply some sharpening, sometimes to the entire frame but more frequently to only portions of the frame by using layers and masks. While all this work sounds very time consuming it usually only takes a minute or less. With a NEF (raw) file, the file is first opened in ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) and some of the adjustments are performed there.

I recently started using Lightroom 2, and while I do all of the same adjustments the process differs somewhat in how the tools work within Lightroom.

--

While amateurs change the camera’s settings; many Pro’s prefer to change the light.

Brooks
http://bmiddleton.smugmug.com/

Most of the information given so far is good -

Shoot jpeg
1. Adjust white balance
2. Adjust contrast

Here are 2 additional things to consider before you even start to PP.

1. Review the snaps you take as soon as possible after you take them.
2. Delete as many marginal snaps as you can during review - the cull.

It takes a while to develop the eye for what is a good snap. When in doubt delete.

Snapping out,

d

Ansel Adams, considered by many to be one of photography’s Masters, is quoted as saying “Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop.” I try and keep that thought in mind when I come in and find a disproportionate number of my shots aren’t worth keeping. I used to go through my photos looking for the really bad shots that couldn’t be saved even with heroic PP efforts; now I tend to look for the few that might be worth keeping. Even so I tend to keep far too many photos.

Some photos, like those taken at a family get together, aren’t necessarily judged on photographic technical merit because these shots often are purely of sentimental value, and there may never be another opportunity to photograph the subject. But if I go out in the yard to shoot Hummingbirds and I snap 100 frames, I’m no longer really disappointed if only one or two of them are left after culling out the unworthy.
--

While amateurs change the camera’s settings; many Pro’s prefer to change the light.

Brooks
http://bmiddleton.smugmug.com/

The Rules:

While Shooting (And in order of importance)
1. Subject must be in focus
2. Composition as you intended it to be
3. Exposure as you intend it to be
4. Whitebalance set properly

After Shooting (in order of procedure)

1. Straigtening/Cropping out extraneous material. Do not crop to 'enlarge', this affects the perspective of the picture. Size and perspective should be done while shooting if at all possible, not in software

2. Adjust exposure

3. Adjust whitebalance/colour. Do not do this before adjusting exposure, it's pointless.

4. Adjust noise reduction.

5. Sharpen. Carefully.

1. ........ Do not crop to 'enlarge', this affects the perspective of the picture.

Wrong.
Cropping does not change the perspective, only the field of view.

To change the "perspective" the CAMERA POSITION must be changed. And only the camera position. Changing lenses does NOT change perspective.

cary

stuntmonkey said:

2. Adjust exposure

3. Adjust whitebalance/colour. Do not do this before adjusting exposure, it's pointless.

Click to expand...

White balance should be adjusted before exposure. Setting white balance is essentially the same as adjusting exposure on a per channel basis, so it's possible that an exposure shift will occur when setting it.

In general, the order in which things should be done in post really depends on whether the workflow is raw or bitmap (JPEG, TIFF) and whether the workflow is non-destructive or not.

cary smith said:

1. ........ Do not crop to 'enlarge', this affects the perspective of the picture.

Wrong.
Cropping does not change the perspective, only the field of view.

To change the "perspective" the CAMERA POSITION must be changed. And only the camera position. Changing lenses does NOT change perspective.

Click to expand...

Expanded: "Do not crop to enlarge, this changes the resulting perspective compared that you would have gotten had you moved in closer to get the same field of view." This is a favourite one to jump on, but from the context, that was what I was describing.

This is a very complex and subjective topic, entire books are written on it and if you are serious you might want to get one or two of them. You really can't learn it on a forum, but the retouching forum on DPR could be a place to start. I spent months and months really learning how to use PP software and the payoff is tremendous, still learning too. There is plenty of "free" info on the subject, if you are willing to take the time to use Google and do the research. Sorry, not evading your question, it's just the truth. It's a complex subject as much or more so than photograpy itself, and no one can really do it for you. You can submit images on the Retouching forum, ask for help and in the process find out what and how they did it as a start...
--
Lora

I've been on Dpreview since June 2006. Unfortunately, some posting history has been lost along the way...

binary_eye said:

stuntmonkey said:

2. Adjust exposure

3. Adjust whitebalance/colour. Do not do this before adjusting exposure, it's pointless.

Click to expand...

White balance should be adjusted before exposure. Setting white balance is essentially the same as adjusting exposure on a per channel basis, so it's possible that an exposure shift will occur when setting it.

Click to expand...

To be clear, I was talking about afterwards in post processing. before shooting you should set white balance, but that is adjustable in post processing; sometimes exposure isn't completely. That's why I rank exposure high up there in importance.

Example:

If you underexpose a snowy scene (happens frequently in real life shooting) you get grey snow and not white. (What likely happened is that you trusted your camera's meter and didn't adjust EV upwards) In PP, are you going to adjust the white balance first or are you going to adjust the curves/levles first? This is not a trival point, exposure isn't just about light/dark, its about controlling detail and microcontrast as well.

Put another way... you shoot a kitchen with afternoon sun coming in through the window. Do you a) adjust the colour first or b)adjust the light level first to match the quality of the late afternoon sun?

Wow. Didnt think Id get such a vast set of responses.

Thanks to everyone for your input, very much appreciated.

To give some background, which I should have, I have a copy of Photoshop CS4, which I have a copy of from my office.

Im guessing this is fine for what I am going to want to do.

In regards to the first reply, I do know what sharpening, contrast gamma, colours etc all of these things are, and have a bit of experience and knowledge with PS, I was also asking in photography especially (not just image editing for graphic design sort of work) which you all used firstly and ALWAYS.

but I think ive picked this up now.

Is there "better" software? out of say,

Photoshop Elements
Photoshop CSx (3/4)
Lightroom 2
Capture NX2

?

Thanks to all.

stuntmonkey said:

To be clear, I was talking about afterwards in post processing.

Click to expand...

So was I.

stuntmonkey said:

Example:

If you underexpose a snowy scene (happens frequently in real life shooting) you get grey snow and not white. (What likely happened is that you trusted your camera's meter and didn't adjust EV upwards) In PP, are you going to adjust the white balance first or are you going to adjust the curves/levles first? This is not a trival point, exposure isn't just about light/dark, its about controlling detail and microcontrast as well.

Click to expand...

As I mentioned, white balance should always be adjusted first because it affects how exposure will need to be adjusted. Global and local contrast are things that should be dealt with separately.

stuntmonkey said:

Put another way... you shoot a kitchen with afternoon sun coming in through the window. Do you a) adjust the colour first or b)adjust the light level first to match the quality of the late afternoon sun?

Click to expand...

Again, adjust the white balance first. Especially in this situation where it is likely there is a strong color cast. For example if there is a very noticeable yellow cast, white balancing the photo is going to either bring up the blues or tone down the yellows. So any exposure tweaking done before that will need to be re-examined.

binary_eye said:

binary_eye said:

If you underexpose a snowy scene (happens frequently in real life shooting) you get grey snow and not white. (What likely happened is that you trusted your camera's meter and didn't adjust EV upwards) In PP, are you going to adjust the white balance first or are you going to adjust the curves/levles first? This is not a trival point, exposure isn't just about light/dark, its about controlling detail and microcontrast as well.

Click to expand...

As I mentioned, white balance should always be adjusted first because it affects how exposure will need to be adjusted. Global and local contrast are things that should be dealt with separately.

Click to expand...

I think we're going to agree to disagree on this one (and we're mildly threadjacking OP's question), but my point with the snow is that grey snow is a common exposure-related error, so it makes sense to me that the first correction is exposure-related as well. Another point about why I feel exposure should be adjusted first is that you need to see how much of the histogram can be safely bent before you run into clipping/posterization/etc.

some good feedback. i, too, was lost with pp and found lightroom much more intuitive. in lightroom you can go to the develop tab and move through the post-processing from top to bottom. after you are comfortable with it you can skip steps or do things in a different order. it's a little less wide open and more useful for strictly photo-editing, IMHO.

high level
1. cull
2. white balance
3. exposure
4. curves
5. colors
6. dodging/burning or any crazy effect
7. sharpening
8. NR
9. crop

obviously you can do the same in pp and more.