7D Maze/low ISO artifacts UPDATE

Greg,

what I wrote about the clipping level and DR of the 7D is not suspicion, nor assumption but fact.

The reason for the pink in the samples is, that ACR (and the DNG converter) assume the clipping level as 15760 with all ISOs . Therefor ACR does not recognize, that clipping occured, it takes the pixel values "at face value". As the red did not clip on the patches of the color checker, but both the green and the blue did clip, the result is reddish, that's only natural.

Btw, one file in both packages was wrong, according to WinZip: IMG_4063 (in the ISO 100 package) had CRC error, and IMG_4069 in the ISO 200 package is one byte shorter (or longer?) than expected.

--
Gabor

http://www.panopeeper.com/panorama/pano.htm
 
true, but if you say you got the same avg (and same stddev???) for G1 and G2 from the wall isn't that a bit different than the others who got different values for both even just on a white patch?
Well, I've always considered this to be two different issues. One, where odd and even lines clearly have different gains, and another where more subtle potential color response differences might exist with some or all CFAs.

--
John

 
Greg,

what I wrote about the clipping level and DR of the 7D is not suspicion, nor assumption but fact.

The reason for the pink in the samples is, that ACR (and the DNG converter) assume the clipping level as 15760 with all ISOs . Therefor ACR does not recognize, that clipping occured, it takes the pixel values "at face value". As the red did not clip on the patches of the color checker, but both the green and the blue did clip, the result is reddish, that's only natural.

Btw, one file in both packages was wrong, according to WinZip: IMG_4063 (in the ISO 100 package) had CRC error, and IMG_4069 in the ISO 200 package is one byte shorter (or longer?) than expected.

--
Gabor

http://www.panopeeper.com/panorama/pano.htm
Assuming your app shows the clipping properly the 100 file clips sooner. Here are the green channels showing raw clipping on the ISO 100 file and not on the ISO 200 file. Looks like it clips 1/3 of a stop sooner. Check out the raw files to see for yourself. 4066 and 4076 respectively.



 
Also, the histograms mapped to linear. Look at how the data on the right edge is chopped off on the ISO 100 vs 200. Easy to see in the blue channel.



 
I don't understand the basic theory here. If we are dealing with two green channels that don't have the same color, you wouldn't expect them to be balanced, anymore than the red and blue would be balanced. Take a photo of a white object and the red, blue, G1 and G2 channels should have different averages.

If the greens are the same, you wouldn't expect perfect balance. Good maybe, but not perfect. Is 1% good enough? I have no idea. Surely Canon/Nikon/Sony/et al have a plan/methodology in place for any slight in-balance between any two channels, be they the same color or not.

You would think that any color filters would be less than perfect for amplitude and spectral response consistency. That would include the RBG1 and G2. I don't exactly see why the G1 and G2 would be "special" for any unbalance.
 
If the 'colour' was different, then it might still be 'possible' for the coefficients to be the same - although it would be a slightly improbable coincidence
No, this is not possible. The raw file contains the coefficients for all "designed" illuminations, like daylight, fluorescent, flash, shade, etc. A filter with a different spectral response perhaps could have the same WB coefficient with some specific illumination , but not with all illuminations.
I'll agree with that.
Also, I think two different green 'densities' is also unlikely - as this is only ever going to produce a tricky 'compromise'- i.e. at lowest ISO's one channel would limit earlier than the other, and at high ISO's one channel would have more noise than the other, both scenarios might create problems.
Actually, the existence of 7D camera copies, which don't exhibit these problems prove, that there is no "designed" deviation between the greens. Alternatively, the good cameras must be regarded as faulty.
...and, if there was any 'designed' difference in green densities, it would almost certainly be quite substantial, i.e. the differences would most likely be at least a factor of 2x, not the small percentage values that have been reported.
 
Interesting indeed...

What is this Green Equilibrium all about ?

Sounds like making both green G1 G2 equal ?
Averaging ?
Averaging (across pixel to pixel) is probably a 'no-no' because it would destroy detail and sharpness.

I believe that this would be the better, and most likely solution...

1. Take the average for the whole frame, of each of the two green channels.

2. Where there is a significant difference between the two green channels' averages, apply a scaling correction to both green channels (one channel up, one channel down) to balance them i.e. bring them into 'equilibrium'.

...that's my guess, and what I think would be done.
 
Your demonstration does not contradict the clipping levels. Make a selection on a clipping area and look at the values. The clipping pixels are very slightly under the specified values (Rawnalyze can not specify the very exact values, for they are not really equal in all cameras).

The clipping differences between #4066 and #4076 are very small, and justified. Make a selection on a patch, which is not clipped in either, and compare the intensities (not the pixel values but the AI value, the intensity measured from clipping). Like the following captures show, they are about 0.3 EV apart; for example red -1.80 (ISO 100) vs. -2.12 (ISO 200). The ISO 100 values are somewhat higher than expected from halving the ISO and doubling the exposure. The reason is, that the "native ISO" of the camera is somewhere around 125, and ISO 100 is made by that ISO. The effect is, that the normal metering causes a 1/3 EV "overmetering" (not unconditionally overexposure). If one uses ISO 100, one should use -1/3 EV bias. However, the dynamic range of ISO 100 is NOT smaller than that of ISO 200 (in fact. it is greater a bit ), only that the metering needs to be adjusted.





--
Gabor

http://www.panopeeper.com/panorama/pano.htm
 
Yep, I agree regarding the native ISO. It's definitely something to be aware of regarding dialing in -1/3 at ISO 100 to not clip the highlights relative to an equivalent metered exposure at ISO 200.

So why do you think Canon chose to limit the white point below ISO 200 on this camera? They don't do it on the 5D Mk II.
 
would you mind posting an OOF RAW of white/bright orange/yellow/cyan?

i'm really curious to see how one reacts from a camera that is claimed to have same G1/G2 gains, but I haven't had anyone give me such a RAW yet

makes it harder to try to figure out what is going on
true, but if you say you got the same avg (and same stddev???) for G1 and G2 from the wall isn't that a bit different than the others who got different values for both even just on a white patch?
Well, I've always considered this to be two different issues. One, where odd and even lines clearly have different gains, and another where more subtle potential color response differences might exist with some or all CFAs.

--
John

 
Your demonstration does not contradict the clipping levels. Make a selection on a clipping area and look at the values. The clipping pixels are very slightly under the specified values (Rawnalyze can not specify the very exact values, for they are not really equal in all cameras).

The clipping differences between #4066 and #4076 are very small, and justified. Make a selection on a patch, which is not clipped in either, and compare the intensities (not the pixel values but the AI value, the intensity measured from clipping). Like the following captures show, they are about 0.3 EV apart; for example red -1.80 (ISO 100) vs. -2.12 (ISO 200). The ISO 100 values are somewhat higher than expected from halving the ISO and doubling the exposure. The reason is, that the "native ISO" of the camera is somewhere around 125, and ISO 100 is made by that ISO. The effect is, that the normal metering causes a 1/3 EV "overmetering" (not unconditionally overexposure). If one uses ISO 100, one should use -1/3 EV bias. However, the dynamic range of ISO 100 is NOT smaller than that of ISO 200 (in fact. it is greater a bit ), only that the metering needs to be adjusted.
hmm i think it IS ever so slightly greater DR at ISO 200 on the 7D and 40D and 50D

the 5D2 is a little higher at 100 though (but that is engineering, if takes into account the pattern banding, i'm not so sure the effective DR is quite best at 100)
 
I don't understand the basic theory here. If we are dealing with two green channels that don't have the same color, you wouldn't expect them to be balanced, anymore than the red and blue would be balanced. Take a photo of a white object and the red, blue, G1 and G2 channels should have different averages.
That's right, and that is one of the reasons that most of us don't think that the two green channels are 'intentionally' different colours.
If the greens are the same, you wouldn't expect perfect balance...
I fully agree there.

There are at least one or two known reasons why they are more likely to be measured as at least a little 'unbalanced', than they are to be found as 'perfectly balanced'.

1. Small errors and tolerances in different amplifier gains.

2. Cross-talk/signal smearing in the read-out and A/D stages.
...Good maybe, but not perfect. Is 1% good enough? I have no idea.
I don't quite know at what level this is a problem either.

It appears that the problem mainly 'appears' due to particular 'demosaic algorithms' interpreting the differences between green pixels as image detail/edges, which essentialy exagerates the problem rather than smoothing it out.

I can make my old Minolta Dimage 7's G1 v G2 imbalanced several percent in either direction, just depending on whether the subject colour is red or blue - however I have never seen any maze artifacts in any of my Dimage 7 images - but this could be just because it doesn't use so called 'sophisticated' demosaicessentiallyexaggerates algorithms.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=33359097
Surely Canon/Nikon/Sony/et al have a plan/methodology in place for any slight in-balance between any two channels, be they the same color or not.
Quite possibly, although it is probably done 'after' the RAW data stage.

One possibility is that there may be correction coefficients in the RAW file's meta-data ('Maker-Note' section) - and perhaps only Canon's DPP software currently makes use of it, but perhaps the beta version of ACR may not yet - but this is just speculation/theory.
You would think that any color filters would be less than perfect for amplitude and spectral response consistency. That would include the RBG1 and G2. I don't exactly see why the G1 and G2 would be "special" for any unbalance.
Again - I would agree with that. It seems very unlikely for the reason you describe, for the G1 v G2 filters to be different.

A misaligned CFA (Bayer filter) has been mentioned as a possibility, although this would be quite a stretch, as there is quite a clear gap between the photo-cells of the sensor, so the CFA would have to be quite badly misaligned to cause a problem.
 
This is not a "limitation of the clipping level" but a different scaling. The 40D and 50D have been doing the very same.

The 5D2 is a bit different in that ISO 100 appears to be the native ISO, i.e. no manipulation is required. ISO 50 is in effect ISO 100, overexposed by 1 EV; here too the schema is the same.

The Nikon D300 and D3/D700 do not adjust the clipping level, but they do the same trick with ISO 100.

--
Gabor

http://www.panopeeper.com/panorama/pano.htm
 
I don't understand the basic theory here. If we are dealing with two green channels that don't have the same color, you wouldn't expect them to be balanced, anymore than the red and blue would be balanced. Take a photo of a white object and the red, blue, G1 and G2 channels should have different averages.
That's right, and that is one of the reasons that most of us don't think that the two green channels are 'intentionally' different colours.
If the greens are the same, you wouldn't expect perfect balance...
I fully agree there.

There are at least one or two known reasons why they are more likely to be measured as at least a little 'unbalanced', than they are to be found as 'perfectly balanced'.

1. Small errors and tolerances in different amplifier gains.

2. Cross-talk/signal smearing in the read-out and A/D stages.
...Good maybe, but not perfect. Is 1% good enough? I have no idea.
I don't quite know at what level this is a problem either.

It appears that the problem mainly 'appears' due to particular 'demosaic algorithms' interpreting the differences between green pixels as image detail/edges, which essentialy exagerates the problem rather than smoothing it out.

I can make my old Minolta Dimage 7's G1 v G2 imbalanced several percent in either direction, just depending on whether the subject colour is red or blue - however I have never seen any maze artifacts in any of my Dimage 7 images - but this could be just because it doesn't use so called 'sophisticated' demosaicessentiallyexaggerates algorithms.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=33359097
Surely Canon/Nikon/Sony/et al have a plan/methodology in place for any slight in-balance between any two channels, be they the same color or not.
Quite possibly, although it is probably done 'after' the RAW data stage.

One possibility is that there may be correction coefficients in the RAW file's meta-data ('Maker-Note' section) - and perhaps only Canon's DPP software currently makes use of it, but perhaps the beta version of ACR may not yet - but this is just speculation/theory.
You would think that any color filters would be less than perfect for amplitude and spectral response consistency. That would include the RBG1 and G2. I don't exactly see why the G1 and G2 would be "special" for any unbalance.
Again - I would agree with that. It seems very unlikely for the reason you describe, for the G1 v G2 filters to be different.

A misaligned CFA (Bayer filter) has been mentioned as a possibility, although this would be quite a stretch, as there is quite a clear gap between the photo-cells of the sensor, so the CFA would have to be quite badly misaligned to cause a problem.
whatever the case comparing stand deviations for G1 and G2 on various patches shows much greater variation between the channels with many more copies of the 7D than with prior releases. The 11 Canon DSLR I've either owned or tried or borrowed all had the std dev between G1 and G2 on a given patch only differ by a few percent but on the 7D samples i've gotten to look at it they have tended to vary more like 8-20%.

maybe they figure why waste money on QC if they can just measure avg for each and apply the correction later before doing anything else???

OTOH, why would have taken so long to decide to do that if it can save them money and causes no harm?
 
hmm i think it IS ever so slightly greater DR at ISO 200 on the 7D and 40D and 50D
On what are you basing that? I am talking about the photographic dynamic range . The noise level with ISO 100 is lower at a given average pixel intensity than with ISO 200. This is quite natural, as the exposure is greater with ISO 100 for the same pixel intensity.

--
Gabor

http://www.panopeeper.com/panorama/pano.htm
 
Julio,

I am convinced, that Canon created the 7D as they did in order to give us something to puzzle over. I wonder when the invoice comes for the entertainment.

You wrote you see the banding with ACR. I don't see any (I am using 4.6 with DNGs), but I see something worse: blotches (NR 0, Blacks 0, sharpening 25/0.7 or so).



--
Gabor

http://www.panopeeper.com/panorama/pano.htm
 
One thing though, what about John who claims that his greens are the same?
Yes, but not testing to show the difference; just my flash on the wall. I will check with IR light, and narrow-band red and blue LEDs later in the week when it is raining.
OK; I did a quick test with a narrow-band red LED, separating the channels in IRIS after clipping away the masked borders:

R: 6253.0
G1: 1164.7
G2: 1197.3
B: 190.4

That's a difference of about 2.8%

Then, a blue LED ($2 more):

R: 47.9
G1: 1175.5
G2: 1156.5
B: 3686.0

about 1.6%, in the opposite direction.

Took a second blue LED shot to see if the shot varies any gain difference, but the difference was almost exactly the same.

So, my guess is that there is some small, and maybe unintentional difference in spectral response between the green channels.

I put a B&W IR-pass filter on a lens, and pointed it into my 2-megacandlepower big flashlight, and results were interesting. All channels were almost equally responsive; 767/789/790/772. With my earlier cameras, red and blue channels were a couple stops more sensitive to IR than the green. This means that in the 7D, IR contamination should be a little less saturated. Obviously, the greens were not very different with IR.

--
John

 
hmm i think it IS ever so slightly greater DR at ISO 200 on the 7D and 40D and 50D
On what are you basing that? I am talking about the photographic dynamic range . The noise level with ISO 100 is lower at a given average pixel intensity than with ISO 200. This is quite natural, as the exposure is greater with ISO 100 for the same pixel intensity.

--
Gabor

http://www.panopeeper.com/panorama/pano.htm
Statistically the noise may be lower at ISO 100 but the noise pattern at ISO 200 is better. It has less banding in the extreme shadows. These shots were recovered at +4EV for the ISO 100 and +3.65 for the ISO 200 shot (ISO 100 was exposed -1/3 relative to ISO 200). Left is ISO 100, right is ISO 200, I know which one I prefer.

 

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