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s90, lx3, or wait for lx5?

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Where do you see a full Canon S90 review on imaging-resource????? As of now NONE exists on that site....

As for the Comparometer on IR....It has one MAJOR FAILING....

Every camera sample on the Comparometer is ONLY at the DEFAULT setting...and sophisticated p&s cameras like both the LX3 and the S90 have many parameter in camera adjustments that can make a major difference in OOC images....

Some manufacturers set the defaults on these sophisticated p&s cameras assuming PP will be done to the images...and so...as in many dslrs...unless you raise sharpness for example in camera OOC does not show the best each individual camera can do. Now each individual model may require different settings to get the best OOC ...and that is where the IR Comparamoter fails to be a good way to compare IQ between cameras.
LordGriNz said:
I haven't seen anything that shows the S90 beating the LX3, in fact the only legitimate site(imaging-resource.com) to review them both, shows the LX3 beating the S90 handily. Nothing beats a superior lens! ;)
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You could debate that forever, but the bottom line is that the LX3 is beating the S90. I also believe someone used the RAW files and ran them as well, again beating the S90. So should I believe that? Or should I go with what might be possible, under some unknown theory? Show me proof otherwise if you have it, but I have seen nothing to date that shows the S90 beating the LX3 in anyway.
jimr said:
Where do you see a full Canon S90 review on imaging-resource????? As of now NONE exists on that site....

As for the Comparometer on IR....It has one MAJOR FAILING....

Every camera sample on the Comparometer is ONLY at the DEFAULT setting...and sophisticated p&s cameras like both the LX3 and the S90 have many parameter in camera adjustments that can make a major difference in OOC images....

Some manufacturers set the defaults on these sophisticated p&s cameras assuming PP will be done to the images...and so...as in many dslrs...unless you raise sharpness for example in camera OOC does not show the best each individual camera can do. Now each individual model may require different settings to get the best OOC ...and that is where the IR Comparamoter fails to be a good way to compare IQ between cameras.
LordGriNz said:
I haven't seen anything that shows the S90 beating the LX3, in fact the only legitimate site(imaging-resource.com) to review them both, shows the LX3 beating the S90 handily. Nothing beats a superior lens! ;)
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  • David
 
.
The LX3 sure beats the S90 handily on HD video.

Canon knows how to do HD (I have several Canon HF100 camcorders) but it chose to cripple the S90 so as to not threaten its camcorder marketing. I feel sure it also crippled it so as to not threaten its DSLR marketing.

Dumb move, Canon :)
.
 
LordGriNz said:
You could debate that forever, but the bottom line is that the LX3 is beating the S90. I also believe someone used the RAW files and ran them as well, again beating the S90. So should I believe that? Or should I go with what might be possible, under some unknown theory? Show me proof otherwise if you have it, but I have seen nothing to date that shows the S90 beating the LX3 in anyway.
jimr said:
Where do you see a full Canon S90 review on imaging-resource????? As of now NONE exists on that site....

As for the Comparometer on IR....It has one MAJOR FAILING....

Every camera sample on the Comparometer is ONLY at the DEFAULT setting...and sophisticated p&s cameras like both the LX3 and the S90 have many parameter in camera adjustments that can make a major difference in OOC images....

Some manufacturers set the defaults on these sophisticated p&s cameras assuming PP will be done to the images...and so...as in many dslrs...unless you raise sharpness for example in camera OOC does not show the best each individual camera can do. Now each individual model may require different settings to get the best OOC ...and that is where the IR Comparamoter fails to be a good way to compare IQ between cameras.
LordGriNz said:
I haven't seen anything that shows the S90 beating the LX3, in fact the only legitimate site(imaging-resource.com) to review them both, shows the LX3 beating the S90 handily. Nothing beats a superior lens! ;)
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  • David
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Jimr, what are you getting at? These are the only controlled studio shots I have seen that can be directly compared, and the LX3 is beating the S90. If Dpreview results end up being the same, then it will end this debate forever. I am actually surprised we havent seen a review here yet. Either case I am very happy with the LX3, it turned out to be much more of a camera than I realized.
jimr said:
LordGriNz said:
You could debate that forever, but the bottom line is that the LX3 is beating the S90. I also believe someone used the RAW files and ran them as well, again beating the S90. So should I believe that? Or should I go with what might be possible, under some unknown theory? Show me proof otherwise if you have it, but I have seen nothing to date that shows the S90 beating the LX3 in anyway.
jimr said:
Where do you see a full Canon S90 review on imaging-resource????? As of now NONE exists on that site....

As for the Comparometer on IR....It has one MAJOR FAILING....

Every camera sample on the Comparometer is ONLY at the DEFAULT setting...and sophisticated p&s cameras like both the LX3 and the S90 have many parameter in camera adjustments that can make a major difference in OOC images....

Some manufacturers set the defaults on these sophisticated p&s cameras assuming PP will be done to the images...and so...as in many dslrs...unless you raise sharpness for example in camera OOC does not show the best each individual camera can do. Now each individual model may require different settings to get the best OOC ...and that is where the IR Comparamoter fails to be a good way to compare IQ between cameras.
LordGriNz said:
I haven't seen anything that shows the S90 beating the LX3, in fact the only legitimate site(imaging-resource.com) to review them both, shows the LX3 beating the S90 handily. Nothing beats a superior lens! ;)
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  • David
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  • David
 
And I have repeatedly stated that Panasonic is the champion for all of us that have wished for innovative wonderful p&s camras. Without Panny Canon would have never made the S90. Canon has for a long time been asleep at the wheel. Panny is creative, innovative, gutsy etc.... As far as the LX3 and the S90.......I have not seen professional reviews of the S90 from the major reviewers.

Assuming.....I repeat....assuming the S90's IQ is near the IQ of the LX3 I see the S90 as another great choice with each camera have different strengths
I do not see any reason why these my camera is better threads go on .....
Different focal ranges etc......

If you have any doubt that the Canon S 90 can produce superb images just look at the following link. There the S90 was not used in default settings etc

But these came from the S90 with a capable user and these images are all I could hope for from any point and shoot. I wish that I had that photographers wonderful eye!
Just look at these and forget samples made only at default

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33451235
 
I wasnt arguing that the S90 isnt a great camera, it is, I just don't find it to be a better choice than the LX3. I also have not seen any comparisons under controlled conditions that shows the output of the S90 to be better than the LX3. And the imaging resource comparison actually shows the LX3 beating the S90 under those conditions, which is what I expected, especially with the LX3's superior lens.
jimr said:
And I have repeatedly stated that Panasonic is the champion for all of us that have wished for innovative wonderful p&s camras. Without Panny Canon would have never made the S90. Canon has for a long time been asleep at the wheel. Panny is creative, innovative, gutsy etc.... As far as the LX3 and the S90.......I have not seen professional reviews of the S90 from the major reviewers.

Assuming.....I repeat....assuming the S90's IQ is near the IQ of the LX3 I see the S90 as another great choice with each camera have different strengths
I do not see any reason why these my camera is better threads go on .....
Different focal ranges etc......

If you have any doubt that the Canon S 90 can produce superb images just look at the following link. There the S90 was not used in default settings etc

But these came from the S90 with a capable user and these images are all I could hope for from any point and shoot. I wish that I had that photographers wonderful eye!
Just look at these and forget samples made only at default

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33451235
Click to expand...
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  • David
 
Might be different. We have no way of knowing that now....So the comparameter is not a fair and good way to judge the POTENTIAL BEST OOC of both cameras. It only compares the default OOC and any capable user of either camera wil learn how to adjust the many in camera parameters in both cameras so they. Would both have Better OOC. We do not know which camera will turn out better then sio. I see the IR samples as next to useless.
LordGriNz said:
I wasnt arguing that the S90 isnt a great camera, it is, I just don't find it to be a better choice than the LX3. I also have not seen any comparisons under controlled conditions that shows the output of the S90 to be better than the LX3. And the imaging resource comparison actually shows the LX3 beating the S90 under those conditions, which is what I expected, especially with the LX3's superior lens.
jimr said:
And I have repeatedly stated that Panasonic is the champion for all of us that have wished for innovative wonderful p&s camras. Without Panny Canon would have never made the S90. Canon has for a long time been asleep at the wheel. Panny is creative, innovative, gutsy etc.... As far as the LX3 and the S90.......I have not seen professional reviews of the S90 from the major reviewers.

Assuming.....I repeat....assuming the S90's IQ is near the IQ of the LX3 I see the S90 as another great choice with each camera have different strengths
I do not see any reason why these my camera is better threads go on .....
Different focal ranges etc......

If you have any doubt that the Canon S 90 can produce superb images just look at the following link. There the S90 was not used in default settings etc

But these came from the S90 with a capable user and these images are all I could hope for from any point and shoot. I wish that I had that photographers wonderful eye!
Just look at these and forget samples made only at default

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33451235
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  • David
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You just love hypothetical situations, don't you? LOL "Might"? Come on now, lets go with what we know here, and not what "might" happen under some scenario you conger up. Not to mention someone also ran RAW samples to try improve on the S90 images, still same answer. I am waiting for proof of what you say, yet I don't see any, which leaves us right back to where we started.....the LX3 is beating the S90.
jimr said:
Might be different. We have no way of knowing that now....So the comparameter is not a fair and good way to judge the POTENTIAL BEST OOC of both cameras. It only compares the default OOC and any capable user of either camera wil learn how to adjust the many in camera parameters in both cameras so they. Would both have Better OOC. We do not know which camera will turn out better then sio. I see the IR samples as next to useless.
LordGriNz said:
I wasnt arguing that the S90 isnt a great camera, it is, I just don't find it to be a better choice than the LX3. I also have not seen any comparisons under controlled conditions that shows the output of the S90 to be better than the LX3. And the imaging resource comparison actually shows the LX3 beating the S90 under those conditions, which is what I expected, especially with the LX3's superior lens.
jimr said:
And I have repeatedly stated that Panasonic is the champion for all of us that have wished for innovative wonderful p&s camras. Without Panny Canon would have never made the S90. Canon has for a long time been asleep at the wheel. Panny is creative, innovative, gutsy etc.... As far as the LX3 and the S90.......I have not seen professional reviews of the S90 from the major reviewers.

Assuming.....I repeat....assuming the S90's IQ is near the IQ of the LX3 I see the S90 as another great choice with each camera have different strengths
I do not see any reason why these my camera is better threads go on .....
Different focal ranges etc......

If you have any doubt that the Canon S 90 can produce superb images just look at the following link. There the S90 was not used in default settings etc

But these came from the S90 with a capable user and these images are all I could hope for from any point and shoot. I wish that I had that photographers wonderful eye!
Just look at these and forget samples made only at default

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33451235
Click to expand...
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  • David
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  • David
 
LordGriNz said:
You just love hypothetical situations, don't you? LOL "Might"? Come on now, lets go with what we know here, and not what "might" happen under some scenario you conger up. Not to mention someone also ran RAW samples to try improve on the S90 images, still same answer. I am waiting for proof of what you say, yet I don't see any, which leaves us right back to where we started.....the LX3 is beating the S90.
jimr said:
Might be different. We have no way of knowing that now....So the comparameter is not a fair and good way to judge the POTENTIAL BEST OOC of both cameras. It only compares the default OOC and any capable user of either camera wil learn how to adjust the many in camera parameters in both cameras so they. Would both have Better OOC. We do not know which camera will turn out better then sio. I see the IR samples as next to useless.
LordGriNz said:
I wasnt arguing that the S90 isnt a great camera, it is, I just don't find it to be a better choice than the LX3. I also have not seen any comparisons under controlled conditions that shows the output of the S90 to be better than the LX3. And the imaging resource comparison actually shows the LX3 beating the S90 under those conditions, which is what I expected, especially with the LX3's superior lens.
jimr said:
And I have repeatedly stated that Panasonic is the champion for all of us that have wished for innovative wonderful p&s camras. Without Panny Canon would have never made the S90. Canon has for a long time been asleep at the wheel. Panny is creative, innovative, gutsy etc.... As far as the LX3 and the S90.......I have not seen professional reviews of the S90 from the major reviewers.

Assuming.....I repeat....assuming the S90's IQ is near the IQ of the LX3 I see the S90 as another great choice with each camera have different strengths
I do not see any reason why these my camera is better threads go on .....
Different focal ranges etc......

If you have any doubt that the Canon S 90 can produce superb images just look at the following link. There the S90 was not used in default settings etc

But these came from the S90 with a capable user and these images are all I could hope for from any point and shoot. I wish that I had that photographers wonderful eye!
Just look at these and forget samples made only at default

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33451235
Click to expand...
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  • David
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  • David
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Let me know when you have positive proof done in a controlled situation showing otherwise, but for now the LX3 is beating the S90. Why do you insist on bring up hypothetical situations where the S90 "might" be better, yet no proof?

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  • David
 
and you have done absolutely zero to refute. It is that simple...
LordGriNz said:
Let me know when you have positive proof done in a controlled situation showing otherwise, but for now the LX3 is beating the S90. Why do you insist on bring up hypothetical situations where the S90 "might" be better, yet no proof?

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  • David
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What sense does that make? LOL You have no proof, and the only viable image proof, proves otherwise. With your logic the S90 must beat out the D3x for image quality....LOL Cameras are built to take pictures, that is what we grade them on, so far the S90 is losing the battle. Until proof otherwise, which you have none, there is only one conclusion....the LX3 is beating the S90. Like I said, show me proof....do you have any? Thought so....better luck next time ;)
jimr said:
LordGriNz said:
Let me know when you have positive proof done in a controlled situation showing otherwise, but for now the LX3 is beating the S90. Why do you insist on bring up hypothetical situations where the S90 "might" be better, yet no proof?

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  • David
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  • David
 
Repeatedly claim that the IR comparamter proves the LX 3 is superior. I clearly tell you why their DEFAULT only sample are useless and you haven't given me any logical answer that proves otherwise. Useless default only samples. Useless.
LordGriNz said:
What sense does that make? LOL You have no proof, and the only viable image proof, proves otherwise. With your logic the S90 must beat out the D3x for image quality....LOL Cameras are built to take pictures, that is what we grade them on, so far the S90 is losing the battle. Until proof otherwise, which you have none, there is only one conclusion....the LX3 is beating the S90. Like I said, show me proof....do you have any? Thought so....better luck next time ;)
jimr said:
LordGriNz said:
Let me know when you have positive proof done in a controlled situation showing otherwise, but for now the LX3 is beating the S90. Why do you insist on bring up hypothetical situations where the S90 "might" be better, yet no proof?

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  • David
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  • David
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Let me get this straight, reviews under controlled studio situations mean nothing to you? Come on, grow up, there are thousands of parameters that could be changed, exactly what test scenarios would you recommend that would be acceptable to you and everyone else? These are legitimate tests, and YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WITHOUT ANY PROOF that the S90 can beat the LX3. If you have proof otherwise, then please present it, you are still dodging that though....are you a troll? You can rant and rave, but until you have proof of what you say, then all you are doing is guessing, the rest of us have proof otherwise.
jimr said:
Repeatedly claim that the IR comparamter proves the LX 3 is superior. I clearly tell you why their DEFAULT only sample are useless and you haven't given me any logical answer that proves otherwise. Useless default only samples. Useless.
LordGriNz said:
What sense does that make? LOL You have no proof, and the only viable image proof, proves otherwise. With your logic the S90 must beat out the D3x for image quality....LOL Cameras are built to take pictures, that is what we grade them on, so far the S90 is losing the battle. Until proof otherwise, which you have none, there is only one conclusion....the LX3 is beating the S90. Like I said, show me proof....do you have any? Thought so....better luck next time ;)
jimr said:
LordGriNz said:
Let me know when you have positive proof done in a controlled situation showing otherwise, but for now the LX3 is beating the S90. Why do you insist on bring up hypothetical situations where the S90 "might" be better, yet no proof?

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  • David
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  • David
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  • David
 
jimr said:
... Some manufacturers set the defaults on these sophisticated p&s cameras assuming PP will be done to the images...and so...as in many dslrs...unless you raise sharpness for example in camera OOC does not show the best each individual camera can do. Now each individual model may require different settings to get the best OOC ...and that is where the IR Comparamoter fails to be a good way to compare IQ between cameras.
Click to expand...
there is no place that will review camera's,with their 'best' settings,which is up for debate,anyway

All we have are comparisons,at default settings ,unless RAW...but that varies depending upon what software is used,as well as the person adjusting the parimeters.

so....where would one find such a test,jimr?

no where,that is consistent,and comparable,to other camera's.

Ony if you were to buy the different camera's,and test them ,at all different settings (to find the 'best' settings,for each camera) then you would know better,about each camera

I think the Compare-o-meter is a good ,controlled test,to compare different cameras...other than buying them all,and testing them all

DPReview uses default settings,too...when reviewing camera's.

so....you wont like their reviews,either...me thinks

not a perfect world...you work with what you have

BTW,jimr, what camera are you shooting with,these days?

I remember you wanting a good low noise camera,since the TZ1 was released

(you had high hopes for the Venus III,at the time)...but it seems only the LX3 has been the camera,from panny,that actually delivered the goods,when it comes to low noise,at higher ISO settings

The S90,at high ISO,seems to do very well ,IMHO

i'm less impressed,at low iso ,though

ANAYV
jimr said:
LordGriNz said:
I haven't seen anything that shows the S90 beating the LX3, in fact the only legitimate site(imaging-resource.com) to review them both, shows the LX3 beating the S90 handily. Nothing beats a superior lens! ;)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
jimr said:
If you have any doubt that the Canon S 90 can produce superb images just look at the following link. There the S90 was not used in default settings etc

But these came from the S90 with a capable user and these images are all I could hope for from any point and shoot. I wish that I had that photographers wonderful eye!
Just look at these and forget samples made only at default

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=33451235
Click to expand...
Yeah...but these aren't shots from the S90...with adjustments in camera

these were worked on ,in Photoshop Elements,and took time,to look as good as they look. You'd want his photoshop ability,as well as his 'eye'

selecting different areas,of the photo,working on them,then using other tools,adjusting here and there...

Far from a fair comparison,no?

you even asked for lessons! lol

If they were free,i'd want some,too !!

those shots only show the potential of a camera...and that guy will make most camera's look good,when he is done with processing the images,IMHO.

Not that the S90 isn't a good,low light camera....it seems it is
Love the size of it!

I'm still waiting on a few reviews,to go head to head,with other camera's

Like LX3....F30...

ANAYV
 
After reading this I think you will understand my IR sample issues better.

As is always the case, IR posts images on their Comparometer ALL taken at default settings only. That can cause misleading conclusions about what cameras that have many in camera parameter setting choices that can often be used to improve OOC images. Some of these default settings are purposely set to produce OOC that are meant for those who PP....especially the higher end p&s cameras in the LZ3, S90, G11 range. Had they been tailored for OOC primarily the resulting default images posted might very well be better.

SPECIFIC CASE IN POINT FOLLOWS:

Now IR did the same with the Fuji F200EXR using the HR setting as their default and posting the resulting samples on their Comparometer as the set to be used for OOC comparisons to other cameras. A howl of protest was raised in the Fuji forum.....with Fuji owners knowing from personal experience that the F200EXR (and the F70EXR) can produce much better OOC images when the DR mode is used. IR PARTIALLY rectified the issue...not by replacing the HR images in the Comparometer, but rather by amending and adding a full DR set of sample images in their full test of the F200EXR. The Comparometer images remain the same in the poorer OOC produced by the HR images and those who merely bring up the Comparometer images and compare to other comparometer images have no clue how much better the images from the same F200EXR can be merely by using the DR setting unless they go to the full F200EXR test on the same IR website and see those samples. Now those DR samples are not available at all on the Comparometer!

A lesson to be learned when relying on the Comparomter (and its default only iimages) to compare images OOC to arrive at an accurate honest determination of relative IQ CAPABILITY of various cameras.
 
After reading this I think you will understand my IR sample issues better.

As is always the case, IR posts images on their Comparometer ALL taken at default settings only. That can cause misleading conclusions about what cameras that have many in camera parameter setting choices that can often be used to improve OOC images. Some of these default settings are purposely set to produce OOC that are meant for those who PP....especially the higher end p&s cameras in the LZ3, S90, G11 range. Had they been tailored for OOC primarily the resulting default images posted might very well be better.

SPECIFIC CASE IN POINT FOLLOWS:

Now IR did the same with the Fuji F200EXR using the HR setting as their default and posting the resulting samples on their Comparometer as the set to be used for OOC comparisons to other cameras. A howl of protest was raised in the Fuji forum.....with Fuji owners knowing from personal experience that the F200EXR (and the F70EXR) can produce much better OOC images when the DR mode is used. IR PARTIALLY rectified the issue...not by replacing the HR images in the Comparometer, but rather by amending and adding a full DR set of sample images in their full test of the F200EXR. The Comparometer images remain the same in the poorer OOC produced by the HR images and those who merely bring up the Comparometer images and compare to other comparometer images have no clue how much better the images from the same F200EXR can be merely by using the DR setting unless they go to the full F200EXR test on the same IR website and see those samples. Now those DR samples are not available at all on the Comparometer!

A lesson to be learned when relying on the Comparomter (and its default only iimages) to compare images OOC to arrive at an accurate honest determination of relative IQ CAPABILITY of various cameras.

LL will be reviewing the S90 shortly and you can be sure they'll compare it to the LX3.
 
So one incident with the F200EXR is your basis for all reviews meaning nothing? Thats weak, especially since your the only one making a stink right now about the S90 to LX3 comparison, where is the "howl of protest"? And I have yet to see your proof of any comparison under controlled studio conditions that beats the LX3. Plus as I and others keep telling you, there are million parameters that could be changed in a test, who is going to agree on what those parameters are? You? The IR comparison test are valid tests, done under a controlled environment, not some Optimized settings test that only you seem to have all the parameters for. There is no way that you are going to get everyone to agree on test parameters for the best OOC Jpegs for each camera, never going to happen. I don't understand why you can't get this thru your head, do just thrive on conspiracy theories?
jimr said:
After reading this I think you will understand my IR sample issues better.

As is always the case, IR posts images on their Comparometer ALL taken at default settings only. That can cause misleading conclusions about what cameras that have many in camera parameter setting choices that can often be used to improve OOC images. Some of these default settings are purposely set to produce OOC that are meant for those who PP....especially the higher end p&s cameras in the LZ3, S90, G11 range. Had they been tailored for OOC primarily the resulting default images posted might very well be better.

SPECIFIC CASE IN POINT FOLLOWS:

Now IR did the same with the Fuji F200EXR using the HR setting as their default and posting the resulting samples on their Comparometer as the set to be used for OOC comparisons to other cameras. A howl of protest was raised in the Fuji forum.....with Fuji owners knowing from personal experience that the F200EXR (and the F70EXR) can produce much better OOC images when the DR mode is used. IR PARTIALLY rectified the issue...not by replacing the HR images in the Comparometer, but rather by amending and adding a full DR set of sample images in their full test of the F200EXR. The Comparometer images remain the same in the poorer OOC produced by the HR images and those who merely bring up the Comparometer images and compare to other comparometer images have no clue how much better the images from the same F200EXR can be merely by using the DR setting unless they go to the full F200EXR test on the same IR website and see those samples. Now those DR samples are not available at all on the Comparometer!

A lesson to be learned when relying on the Comparomter (and its default only iimages) to compare images OOC to arrive at an accurate honest determination of relative IQ CAPABILITY of various cameras.

LL will be reviewing the S90 shortly and you can be sure they'll compare it to the LX3.
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  • David
 
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