Mike Fitzgerald
Veteran Member
Yes, my note was just aimed at showing what was there, ripe for picking.
Absolutely, Dave. And having separate layers available makes it a whole lot more controllable too.
Mike
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Mike
G
greg
Guest
Yep ... I'll make the adjustments and post soon.
U
Ulysses
Guest
No, not at all. It's not a competition. We just like what we like, that's all.
For myself, I like the Canon noise reduction, but don't always care for their colors in general when printed out.
--
Ulysses
dave clark28980
Leading Member
I agree B a H,
I am getting irked by the reds too. But just like you and Ulysses have said, what other camera would you buy?
I waited a whole year for to see what the competition would do against the F707 and they just couldn't one-up the Sony enough for me to buy their brand. Now that Fuji, Nikon, and Olympus and Minolta, et al., have gone through their cycle of offerings the year, the only game in town is the Sony F717.
I decided to get the F717 not because it has solved all of its problems, but because the competition is worse. What the F717 does have is a pretty good package and I will know that I got one of the best cameras under $1000.
My only other option is to keep waiting, but one year was long enough for me.
David Clark
I am getting irked by the reds too. But just like you and Ulysses have said, what other camera would you buy?
I waited a whole year for to see what the competition would do against the F707 and they just couldn't one-up the Sony enough for me to buy their brand. Now that Fuji, Nikon, and Olympus and Minolta, et al., have gone through their cycle of offerings the year, the only game in town is the Sony F717.
I decided to get the F717 not because it has solved all of its problems, but because the competition is worse. What the F717 does have is a pretty good package and I will know that I got one of the best cameras under $1000.
My only other option is to keep waiting, but one year was long enough for me.
David Clark
I just love Canon color, and would like to see them enter this
market with a 5/6X camera with ISO 50 and Canon color. Could be a
great camera as well as the 717. I'm just annoyed that they didn't
add something that I think they could easily program in. For
exposure, dynamic range, and sharpness, the 717 wins hands down as
far as I'm concerned. Just wish they'd treat color more like Canon.
B a H
--Yep, the reds are going to scare away some folks.
The question is: What is going to tick you off about the Canon or
Nikon or [insert other camera].
--
Ulysses
If you have time to post on this site every day, you HAVE time to
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U
Ulysses
Guest
Here's what I'm finding looks most similar to my friend's flowers (who has virtually the same flower... can't remember the name, or else I'd find samples of it online).
Much of the details still seem to be there in the flower. I'm finding that I can get similar results to her flowers by lowering the red channel saturation by -20, and then darkening the same channel by -15. That's not perfect, but it's the ballpark that I would be reaching for.
Thanks for your work on this! It's especially going to benefit PS users who need to make these sorts of adjustments for their F707/F717's.
Ulysses
Much of the details still seem to be there in the flower. I'm finding that I can get similar results to her flowers by lowering the red channel saturation by -20, and then darkening the same channel by -15. That's not perfect, but it's the ballpark that I would be reaching for.
Thanks for your work on this! It's especially going to benefit PS users who need to make these sorts of adjustments for their F707/F717's.
--
Ulysses
G
greg
Guest
U
Ulysses
Guest
I guess my point with this is not to prevent others from buying other cameras. The point is that you look at a camera as a total package. You don't isolate on channel or one feature, say 'this is not good, the camera must be horrible'.
You look at the overall pattern of what's going on. Decide what you can tolerate, what you can work around, and what just kills it for you.
For myself, I see saturated reds, but better reds than on the camera that I'm using. I see also lots of other improvements that I've been waiting to experience on my own camera. I've dealt with worse reds than this for over a year now and learned to massage them into submission, at least well enough that clients, family and friends won't complain.
So, if I get a saturated red flower every once in a while (even the F707 doesn't do it ALL the time), then I figure I'm going to be okay.
--
Ulysses
Mike Fitzgerald
Veteran Member
jeff@dcresource
Well-known member
My friend took the same flower shot with my old Coolpix 950. Just popped it on the tripod about a minute after my ultra-red picture was taken.I'm undecided about the 717 at the moment and am looking forward to
a full review and more pics soon. This may be better than what my
F707 would do with this flower, but it still seems a bit red to me:
Here is the result:
(Hope that link works)
I think the real color of the rose is someplace in the middle.
- Jeff
U
Ulysses
Guest
That's what I figured.
Most cameras are going to have trouble with this natural red and its texture on the flower peta surface.
Funny. I didn't think it was a rose. Thought perhaps because of its open face that it was in the zinnia family.
--
Ulysses
Jaime59461
Member
Here's another, with the 707:
My friend took the same flower shot with my old Coolpix 950. JustI'm undecided about the 717 at the moment and am looking forward to
a full review and more pics soon. This may be better than what my
F707 would do with this flower, but it still seems a bit red to me:
popped it on the tripod about a minute after my ultra-red picture
was taken.
Here is the result:
(Hope that link works)
I think the real color of the rose is someplace in the middle.
Visiting from dcresource.com
- Jeff
s k u l p t
Senior Member
I'm still waiting for Canon though. If nothing comes of it, I will most likely buy the 717. The colors are improved, plus the other great features. I just think if they would have nailed color this time around (with saturation controls), there would be no reason (image wise) to not get this camera. They are the best for dynamic range (while keeping highlight and shadow detail), sharpness, and overall detail. If they could nail color, wow.... And it just seemed to me that they could of added saturation controls much easier than adding some of the other things.
Another big thing that I wish they had added was an option to save 2 to 4 users setting profiles. That would have been sweet. Oh well.
B a H
If you have time to post on this site every day, you HAVE time to click a banner to feed the starving. http://www.thehungersite.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Another big thing that I wish they had added was an option to save 2 to 4 users setting profiles. That would have been sweet. Oh well.
B a H
--I am getting irked by the reds too. But just like you and Ulysses
have said, what other camera would you buy?
I waited a whole year for to see what the competition would do
against the F707 and they just couldn't one-up the Sony enough for
me to buy their brand. Now that Fuji, Nikon, and Olympus and
Minolta, et al., have gone through their cycle of offerings the
year, the only game in town is the Sony F717.
I decided to get the F717 not because it has solved all of its
problems, but because the competition is worse. What the F717 does
have is a pretty good package and I will know that I got one of the
best cameras under $1000.
My only other option is to keep waiting, but one year was long
enough for me.
David Clark
I just love Canon color, and would like to see them enter this
market with a 5/6X camera with ISO 50 and Canon color. Could be a
great camera as well as the 717. I'm just annoyed that they didn't
add something that I think they could easily program in. For
exposure, dynamic range, and sharpness, the 717 wins hands down as
far as I'm concerned. Just wish they'd treat color more like Canon.
B a H
--Yep, the reds are going to scare away some folks.
The question is: What is going to tick you off about the Canon or
Nikon or [insert other camera].
--
Ulysses
If you have time to post on this site every day, you HAVE time to
click a banner to feed the starving. http://www.thehungersite.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
If you have time to post on this site every day, you HAVE time to click a banner to feed the starving. http://www.thehungersite.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
Mike Fitzgerald
Veteran Member
Jeff,
Good to have you drop by, and thanks for this interesting comparison as well as the early samples from the 717 -- the latter on behalf of all of us who are taking them in the spirit with which you published them. Nothing conclusive yet, of course, but certainly some interesting discussion points emerging.
Interesting thing about the Coolpix 950 image though: My first impression was that it had let the F717 off the hook, in that it caused me to conclude that there wasn't much texture in those petals after all. But I opened it in PS as an afterthought and -- guess what? -- forgetting the blue content for the moment, it turns out that the red channel is actually clipping quite a bit harder than is the case with the F717!!
So we're now looking at a metering issue. It's been apparent for a while that F707 metering isn't too happy with a dominant red subject, with greens as pretty much the only balancing colour. I'm saying that, btw, on the basis of many other shots I've seen where there was no other background visible (its brightness in this subject is unknown) so I don't think it's so much a matter of matrix metering setting too much store by the ground here. It's been my feeling that if dominant reds aren't permitted to fool the F707's metering (and I think the same thing is happening here), then it won't actually clip the reds too badly and tweaking saturation will usually bring out a lot of detail that might have been presumed lost.
But with the 950 I'm guessing, of course, about background contribution. It could be that the 950 and 717 are overcooking the red but for different reasons. FWIW, here are two pairs of shots of a broadly similar subject, taken with an F707 and a CP 5700. It does appear that the 5700 isn't getting tricked by the extreme colour of the main subject. All 4 shots were taken with multisegment metering and aperture priority.
Sony F707
Coolpix 5700
Sony F707
Coolpix 5700
Here's a link to the full comparison from which these are drawn:
http://www.pbase.com/helenpb/sony_f707nikon_cp_5700_comparis
Mike
Good to have you drop by, and thanks for this interesting comparison as well as the early samples from the 717 -- the latter on behalf of all of us who are taking them in the spirit with which you published them. Nothing conclusive yet, of course, but certainly some interesting discussion points emerging.
Interesting thing about the Coolpix 950 image though: My first impression was that it had let the F717 off the hook, in that it caused me to conclude that there wasn't much texture in those petals after all. But I opened it in PS as an afterthought and -- guess what? -- forgetting the blue content for the moment, it turns out that the red channel is actually clipping quite a bit harder than is the case with the F717!!
So we're now looking at a metering issue. It's been apparent for a while that F707 metering isn't too happy with a dominant red subject, with greens as pretty much the only balancing colour. I'm saying that, btw, on the basis of many other shots I've seen where there was no other background visible (its brightness in this subject is unknown) so I don't think it's so much a matter of matrix metering setting too much store by the ground here. It's been my feeling that if dominant reds aren't permitted to fool the F707's metering (and I think the same thing is happening here), then it won't actually clip the reds too badly and tweaking saturation will usually bring out a lot of detail that might have been presumed lost.
But with the 950 I'm guessing, of course, about background contribution. It could be that the 950 and 717 are overcooking the red but for different reasons. FWIW, here are two pairs of shots of a broadly similar subject, taken with an F707 and a CP 5700. It does appear that the 5700 isn't getting tricked by the extreme colour of the main subject. All 4 shots were taken with multisegment metering and aperture priority.
Sony F707
Coolpix 5700
Sony F707
Coolpix 5700
Here's a link to the full comparison from which these are drawn:
http://www.pbase.com/helenpb/sony_f707nikon_cp_5700_comparis
Mike
My friend took the same flower shot with my old Coolpix 950. Just
popped it on the tripod about a minute after my ultra-red picture
was taken.
Here is the result:
(Hope that link works)
I think the real color of the rose is someplace in the middle.
Visiting from dcresource.com
- Jeff
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